R33 Rb30 Conversion

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, whilst GTR- Ben is almost right, it is actually the sensors you use on the engine that determine which ECU and loom you use. As an example we have an RB31DET (RB30 at 3.1 litres with an RB26DETT head) that uses an RB20DET Power FC and the original R32 GST loom . What I have done is use all of the sensors off the old RB20DET on the RB31DET. I swapped over the water temp sensors, knock sensors, throttle position sensor, CAS, boost sensor, oil pressure sensor, AFM (we used a Q45 AFM) etc. Plus I used the 565 cc injectors that were in the RB20DET, which were top feed and high impedance to match the Power FC.

I did it this way, rather than use an RB26DETT ECU and loom, because I already had an RB20DET loom and Power FC in the car. So it seemed simpler to swap the sensors and injectors over while both engines were out of the car. Plus I am not very good with looms, I never seem to be able to get them to fit back in the way they should.

If I had an R33GTST I would have done what GTR-BEN suggested and used all the original stuff with the RB30 bottom end.

Hope all that makes sense.

[GTR-Ben]

Jeeze... that sounds like a mission to me, I prefer to rip looms out, dosn't take much.

Sydney Kid, do you know the actual compression ratio with the GTR head dropped straight onto the stock Rb30E? I was told the CC of the GTR head but forgot and can't work it out.

Your post also reminded me.. I don't think I have the loom for that part of the engine, the knock sensors etc.. Im sure I can sort something out though.

[Steve]

If you are after GT35R, it may be worth checking what Per4manz turbocharging in WA have on offer, I got quoted around $2400 for one. They have done some RandD and appear to have a very good combo. I think their website is www.per4manz.com or something like that

Ok this info is from GCG: note the 1.06 AR exh hsg

Garrett GT35R Ball Bearing Turbo:-  

$2960.00  

Aftermarket Applications  

P/No #GSB8007  

Rated 700hp  

Spec's:-  

1.06a/r Turbine Housing (4 bolt outlet)  

0.70a/r Compressor Housing  

Watercooler Centre  

52 Trim Compressor Wheel (T04S)  

50 lbs/min Comp Flow Max.  

84 Trim Turbine Wheel  

Now Ray Hall website:

Turbo|  Part#    |  CHRA #    |AR   |Trim |model  | wheel diam|lb flow|AR  |Trim |Wheel diam

GT35 |714568-0001| 706451-0005| 0.70| 56  |GT40   | 2.41/3.22  |60    |1.06| 84  | 2.45/2.68

Ray hall seems to use a "GT40" comp wheel with the 56 trim, where as the GCG one uses a T04s wheel with the 52 trim.  

After looking at the Garrett catalogue the GCG specs are GT35, the Ray hall specs are GT35R

this is all i have found so far.. still researching suitable turbos

[Cubes]

So CAN I use the RB30E sump in the R32 GTST without any modifications?

I remember it was covered earlier in the thread but I can't find it?!?!

[Cubes]

I've sorted out my oil pump.

I rang nissan to find out the differences between the turbo & non-turbo pumps (RB20,RB25,RB30)

Apparently the RB20/25 turbo pumps have the same flow/pressure as the non-turbo pumps. This was according to Nissan. I'll ring again and ask them to compare the valve kit between the pumps. I suspect the turbo pumps will be a higher pressure pump. If this is correct surely one could uprate their RB20t pump to a R32 GTR or even R32 GTR N1 pump by using the valve kit and slapping it in the RB20t pump.. maybe I will find out as it will save peoples many $$.

I gave holden a buzz & they said the part numbers for the RB20 export motor, RB30 & RB30 turbo are all the same however the only difference is the pressure. To up the RB20 (export SOHC motor) NA & RB30 NA motor to turbo flow rates you have to lay out a whopping $21.42 to get the valve kit or somthing that comes with a new spring and a few other bits.

I've gone with the stock RB30 oil pump as i've had it checked out and its 100%. I'm just waiting for holdens to get the part in now. Saved me lots of $$ as a new pump is up over $550.

[Cubes]

myline,

grab your self a VL commodore manual and have a read. It will help you understand the workings of a RB motor, or even better if you can track down a R32 Engine manual that is floating around on the net.

To answer your question about the timing being out.. which timing?

The ignition timing or the cam timing?

If you are talking about the ignition timing then well yes 15degree's could be considered to be out as with a 8.2:1 CR it requires more timing to be optimal as the cr is less than that of the RB25DET of 9:1. Thats the tuning side of things.

If you are talking about the cam timing, well that comes down to making sure the cam timing has been setup by who ever assembles the motor. Its no different to replacing your own cam belt then having to make sure the cam timing is correct.

Just because its a larger motor it doesn't mean that anything will be out, tune it to suit.

Anything over ~240rwkw if you are rebuilding a motor that you want to last you would be silly not to spend another $1000-$1300 on a set of Forged pistons. When the bug bites you will be wishing you did so that you could stretch its legs to the 300rwkw mark.

[the phantom]

Hey Joel,

Thanks for sharing that. I have an RB25DET and an RB30 in pieces...I might pull the pumps apart and confirm what your saying, physically, not that I doubt what your saying, I'm just being pedantic I'll let you know. I had to pay a more exorbidant amount that that when I had my RB30 short motor built...I wont be doing that again!!!

[the phantom]

Well I pulled apart my spare '94 RB25DET and SI RB30E oil pumps to compare. There are significant internal differences. Most significant is the gear construction. The RB30 has many very fine teeth, whilst the RB25DET has fewer much coarser teeth. Also the engagement of the gear to the crank on the '25 covers a full 16mm vs the measly 5 mm of the RB30. The effective width of the teeth is near enough the same however. Secondly the pressure regulator springs: the RB25 has two springs, one smaller diameter within the other larger diameter. The length appears different however the nut that locks everything into place is also deeper on the '25, so the overall effective length is the same. Overall, there appears to have been some concern to change the gear design, as seen by the engagement length. As for the tooth count who knows, perhaps it was easier and'or cheaper to mass produce this way. Without extensive and difficult measuring it is difficult to calculate the effective flow rate differences. The stiffer pressure regulator is to be expected considering the '25 has piston squirters, which aren't adopted in the '30.

See attached photos.

[Bl4cK32]

The R33 series two onwards had the thicker section where it engages the crank. On the R32 (all models) and s1 r33's they had the same as the rb30. Could u compare a r32 oil pump phantom?

See this :http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...hlight=oil+pump

[SteveL]

RB30 NA oil pump gear width is 10mm

RB30ET oil pump gear width is 12.5mm

IOW turbo oil pump gives higher flow for the same rpm.

Had both apart and measured them for myself.

I'm running an RB30ET oil pump on my RB30DET.

[the phantom]

Hi,

Bl4cK32: The R33 pump I dissasembled above was from a series 1 1994 GTS25t, and has the significantly wider crank gear compared to the RB30...so its NOT the same. So is mine out of the ordinary? The engine details were definitely series 1, ie seperate ignitor module and older series TPS. So does that mean series 1's came out with both styles? Unfortunately I dont have an R32 series engine oil pump so I cant check for you...sorry. Regarding Sydneykids post in the link, he seems to be referring to DIAMETERS rather than the width of the lugs that I concentrated on measuring, and again, the pump above was a series 1 which seems to contradict what was mentioned. I'll measure the actual diameters of the '25 and '30 cranks to see if I can align with what SK suggests.

SteveL: Thanks! Thats what I was wondering. The engine builder who built the current RB30 short motor I'm runnning, had made a big song and dance about the differences in the RB30E and ET pumps, particularly the significant additional cost of the ET. I just went with his advice at the time, so from what your saying he appears to have been correct in his insistance.

[Rowdyr32]

Quick question can RB20det valve springs be used in a RB25de head and also how much are GTR valve springs worth? Guys you've got some great info on here keep it up.

[Cubes]

RB30 NA oil pump gear width is 10mm

RB30ET oil pump gear width is 12.5mm

IOW turbo oil pump gives higher flow for the same rpm.

Had both apart and measured them for myself.

I'm running an RB30ET oil pump on my RB30DET.

If that is the case then why when you call holden they tell you the pump for the NA and T is the same part number. The only difference is the pressure valve?!?

Nissan said the same thing about the RB20 turbo and non turbo pump.

I guess I'll have to wait until Bl4ck32 isn't looking and get the spanners out on his RB20DET oil pump.

[the phantom]

Maybe you could ask him nicely...its not that hard to take one apart, and wont cost anything...

Isn't there a Holden forum somewhere we could post the query on...

SteveL: where did you get your pump from. Perhaps your dealer has different info to Joel's???

[SteveL]

If that is the case then why when you call holden they tell you the pump for the NA and T is the same part number. The only difference is the pressure valve?!?

Well as I said, I've actually had both RB30 NA and turbo oil pumps apart and measured them for myself....I'm not sure what else I can say, other than dimensions I've listed confirm what I've read about the differences between RB30E and RB30ET motors (ie upgraded rod bolts, pistons etc....and an upgraded oil pump).

[Cubes]

Phantom, Both of the motors are being done at the same place at the same time. Andrew is going to pull Bl4ck32s RB20t pump apart and check clearances etc.. I'll get a few pics then.

If it is different I dont want to risk the RB30E's small tooth pump locking or not being able to handle high rev's, especially now that I have the RB30T's pressure spring.

Steve, I'm in denile.

I'll measure the gears of the SII RB30E pump tomorrow.

[SteveL]

Well if your really concerned I've got a spare secondhand GTR oil pump in the garage It definately has wide gears. (I picked it up after I'd finished the bottom end).

[the phantom]

But the RB26 pump has the wider engagement on the crank. The RB30 crank will need to be modifed...or is that the difference between the early and later RB26 pumps...

[Cubes]

Phantom,

Thats the difference between the early and later pumps.

I've heard problems with the earlier style pumps cracking when over rev'd (miss-gear change 9000-10000rpm)

I had the engine builder measure the gears in my NA RB30E pump.

They are exactly 11mm wide.

He said he should have a turbo RB30 pump out the back and will measure that.

[SteveL]

This is a direct quote from an article on VL Commodes on the difference between the RB30E and RB30ET oil pumps:

'A larger oil pump (increased over the 10.8mm standard width by 2.6mm) was fitted to cater for the required turbo supply.....'

So 10.8mm for the NA pump and 12.4mm for the ET version. My measuring equipment is obviously not very accurate, but it's not that inaccurate that it would be out by around 2.5mm. Visually the gears were wider and that confirms the greater flow capabilities of the turbo pump (this would be expected given the greater demand of the turbo).