Need Help With Next Mods

[amosite]

'90 model, 85,000 klms with up to date log books

Near stock, currently sitting at 286 rw kw (approx 383 rw hp)

Currently being tuned for a bit more mid range as it seems the turbo's are

at their max.

Mods:

Kakimoto 4'' from dump pipes

Roguepi Hard pipe intake and cross over pipe

Apexi 115mm intercooler (couldnt find a 130mm one)

F.E.T ignition coils

IRIWAY plugs (could be iritop, cant rememeber)

Profec B (original type)

Power FC Dejetro (AFM's still fitted) 286 rw kw (383 rw hp)

Cam belt being done along with cam gears, waiting to hear back from tuner

but probably wont make any more power. Hopefully it wil have a bit more

mid range.

Most ppl on here laughed when I said I wanted 300 rw kw (400 rw hp) with

stock turbo's. Im not far off my mark and havent done half the shit they said I

would need to do.

Looking to get 400 hp atw with stock turbo's but not sure what I can do next.

My brother is suggesting alloy pulley kit (Water, powersteering, alternator)

along with a billet 5.2kg flywheel which should free up some power putting

it close to the mark.

Let me know what your thoughts are, I want to leave the turbo's, manifolds and

dump pipes so all other options will be considered (except for cams). Really

only trying to prove a pont that 400 rw hp can be made with bolt on's and stock

turbo's.

If the turbo's could be easily removed, I would seriously consider getting the housings

machined for a bit more clearance- which will give a bit more lag at the expense of

outright flow.

I will update my post in the RB26 results thread as soon as I get the car back.

P.s Ramp rate is 100, should be good for a flat 12 if the clutch holds it. This is also

a summer tune. It might get closer to 400 rw hp in winter but thats not the point....

[paulr33]

can u afford a rebuild?

if yes: keep going & good luck

if no: replace the stockers with steel wheelers if not, larger units as well

its a time bomb dude

[R31Nismoid]

280rwkw on stock turbos?

Dude... your asking for it to spit a wheel and lunch a motor.

Thats just plain madness.

[amosite]

I doubt it will need a rebuild, the tune is safe. Timing is realistic and AFR's are on the rich side. No lean spool, tuned by one of the best in Sydney who tunes all over the world.

The turbo's may be a time bomb- just dont be behind me if/when they let go. This is about 15-20 rw kw more then what the tuner has gotten out of a stock turbo'd BNR32- The other car had cams and is still on stock turbo's today. Some of teh other cars are running more boost, less mods and less power!

If someone can explain to me, how a ceramic wheel can "blow an engine" I am all ears.

The majority of people who have lunched an engine at the same time turbo's went, probably did the engine first, which led to turbo's going.

If the ceramic wheels go, it will fly straight out the exhaust. Even if its bad enough to damage the thrust bearing and the compressor wheel somehow comes off, its contents will be stuck in the intercooler. Most IC's are internally finned. Large shards of metal will get caught. Small shards will disintegrate in combustion temps.

Im not being a smart ass, but I cant see a quantifiable reason of a ceramic turbo letting go, then taking an engine with it.

I might do a search in japan but I recall a LOT of guys over there making 400 ps (just under 400 hp) on stock turbo's AND taking them to track days!

Edited February 13, 2007 by amosite

[paulr33]

i didnt believe it for some time either

but basically the exhaust wheel fails and due to the manifold design there is usually excessive detonation or ceramic sucked through the valves = rebuild time

[khunjeng]

tick tok....

BOOM!

[Beer Baron]

how much boost are you running?

no offence but what are you trying to prove? who cares if you make 400hp on a particular dyno with stock turbos? put it on another dyno it may make 430 and on yet another dyno it may make 350...

you say you want more power, but aren't interested in turbos, or cams. apart from more boost you are going to be shit out of luck in power producing mods at this point.

I do have one small favour to ask, could you please post a pic of your FET coils? very keen to see if they are what I think they are.

also, you should gain some top end, and some midrange with the cams gears.

[amosite]

i didnt believe it for some time either

but basically the exhaust wheel fails and due to the manifold design there is usually excessive detonation or ceramic sucked through the valves = rebuild time

Who told you this? Either you have their explanation confused, or someone's pulling your leg.

An exhaust wheel will cause back pressure which will promote detonation if not properly tuned. If your missing the exhaust wheel, there is less restriction. If it fails, it will be less likely to detonate.

Ceramic getting sucked through the valves- Unless you somehow snapped a cam belt at the same time, it is impossible for an engine to open its exhaust valves on a downward stroke of the cylinder. Its even more impossible for anything to get sucked through a closed valve as the air needs to flow the opposite way.

The only time I can see you blowing a turbo and blowing an engine is if the front fails too and starts to pump oil into the intake and the engine consumes it. This WILL cause detonation. If you do this and keep driving its not the turbo's fault, your your OWN FAULT

I knew this topic would be a bit of controversy.

7 years ago, I built an Rx3 with a 13B turbo, ended up making 300 hp atw on a stock import motor with 40K, a simple high flow, massive IC, fuel pump and a tweaked air flow meter and fuel reg. Only other mods was custom headers, 4 kg flywheel and custom exhaust (massive)

Everyone said it was BS, Rick shaw didnt believe me, so I told him I would bring it around and do a run. He was dumb founded! Said it was a ticking time bomb and it would crack and end plate. 4 years later and a dozen track days it was still running strong, started first time, made consistent power.

7 years ago, 300 hp was amazing from a 13B turbo that was stock. Most people had $6K short engines to "hold" this sort of power. A mate started working for rotormaster, the owner didnt believe me so I took it there one saturday, ran it up and he was gob smacked! My mates Rx3 had a 13B Bridge with a T76 and only made 420 hp on 12 psi (limited due to the ECU)

Everyone said I had a freak engine and must have been built in Japan. Not likely, it came from an Auto convertible and most of the bolts hadnt been touched by a socket (you can see once removed)

Finially another mate was close to finishing his car, stock 13B, Log manifold, 3'' exhaust. I custom made the dump pipe, gave the ECU/AFM a bit of a tickle, 250 rw hp. Obviously he didnt have as many mods, mainly larger compressor wheel and intercooler which is why the power lacked!

No one believed me then. That was over 6 years ago.

I posted the "how to" on ausrotary, now anyone not making more then 186 rw kw (250hp) from a stock 13B with exhaust has problems and will probably get chased away from the forum (some are not nice over there)

[amosite]

how much boost are you running?

no offence but what are you trying to prove? who cares if you make 400hp on a particular dyno with stock turbos? put it on another dyno it may make 430 and on yet another dyno it may make 350...

you say you want more power, but aren't interested in turbos, or cams. apart from more boost you are going to be shit out of luck in power producing mods at this point.

I do have one small favour to ask, could you please post a pic of your FET coils? very keen to see if they are what I think they are.

also, you should gain some top end, and some midrange with the cams gears.

1.1 bar mid to 1.05 at top end, drops at 6800 due to turbo's being too small. I have calculated pre and post IC pressure at 14 psi at the inlet to work out the pressure drop (no ic has a 0.2 psi/bar pressure drop, a 90 deg 3'' pipe will have more pressure and flow drop!). I then sent the apexi core away to be flow tested, compared against a ARC and HKS core the same size. Apexi came out on top, boost was set so that pressure out of the turbo's is the same as what they would push through a stock IC at 14 psi inlet pressure. The additional flow is where the boost increase is from, not from running more overall boost. If the turbo's are going to fail with me running 1.1 bar now, they were going to fail with me running 1 bar on the stock IC.

I have nothing to prove to you guys, I dont actually know many people from here, only a hand full of guys I have actually met unfortunately. I actually want to run an 11 on stock turbo's without gas. A friend of mine is running 12.2 with a 100 shot on a totally stock BCNR33. No intake, no exhaust etc etc. He did install a multi plate clutch in it but. I didnt believe it until I seen the run!

The dyno I run on dictates 400 hp will pull an 11.9XX with a half decent launch (as per other BNR32's). Which is why I pretty much want to chase that number, as its leading me in the direction of my goal. Dyno dynamics Dyno's dont vary too much from model to model. The ramp rate an vary the hp printed, as with the way you have your compensations set up or even if you have them on at all.

My mates ECR33 with RB30 bottom end makes 450 odd HP on JEMS dyno, but makes 290 rw KW (about 399 hp on 120 ramp rate) on the dyno I use (mines run on 100 ramp rate). Changing ramp rate has a multiplying factor on grunt printed. However his car will only pull away from me in 3rd gear (while im in 2WD mode) and its not a hell of a lot (probably only as his wheel spins a lot more)

Basically, between me and my mates we all have conflicting thoughts on what works, how to set up your car etc ect. They all said I would blow the 10A diff I ran with 300 hp to the wheels (originally designed for 65 hp). I ran 11's on that diff. I left numerous 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear black tracks from hard acceleration. I thought I would break it at one point but it never went! While they went and spent 10K on their engine, I spent 10K on the entire car and ran it hard for years (not abusively)

Its unspoken of, but we are all out to have 11 second daily driven cars. But with the least amount spent, with the most drivability and economy, and with half decent reliability. Old mate with the BCNR33 on 100 shot is winning but hasnt run the 11....yet! And he's cheating. No one else is running on gas although another mate is setting his up on a 150 shot with similar mods to my car. He wont get more then 2 full power runs Along with this competition, we're also trying to get a 10 from a per '03 600 Super sport. I.e Gix, R6, 6R etc. I havent had a crown in a couple of years and am itching but I hold lap record (in our group) for EC and wakefield (for 3 years) but not oran

I just thought of another way I can get atleast 10 hp ATW, run screamer pipes! How hard is it to change dump pipes with the turbo's in place ARRHH!

[R31Nismoid]

The majority of people who have lunched an engine at the same time turbo's went, probably did the engine first, which led to turbo's going.

If the ceramic wheels go, it will fly straight out the exhaust. Even if its bad enough to damage the thrust bearing and the compressor wheel somehow comes off, its contents will be stuck in the intercooler. Most IC's are internally finned. Large shards of metal will get caught. Small shards will disintegrate in combustion temps.

Sorry mate. Your are extremely wrong on this one.

There more than sufficient evidence from many people to backup the fact that when the ceramic wheel lets go, cermic dust gets back into the motor.

Its common knowledge these days.

People do NOT lunch motors first. It goes like this

Turbo dies

Dust back onto the pistons

Dead motor

See here for one of the many pictures floating around as evidence.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...howtopic=156091

You can clearly see from the pics the result of cermic dust totally destroying the pistons.

Nothing else would create that type of damage, and when you can see the ceramic particles, then... well... einstein will tell you it cant be anything else

You can say its impossible and not accept it for as long as you want, you dont have the proof to back that up.

The simple fact of he matter is... it does happen, and its has been proven to occur in a "more often than not" scenario.

Please dont mislead the rest of the members with misinformation

[amosite]

This is the only pic I have, shitty camera phone at night.

Bastically they are red and say F.E.T on them

Oh, and tuner said it should make a little more mid range but not sure about top end as it already seems maxed out

[amosite]

Sorry mate. Your are extremely wrong on this one.

There more than sufficient evidence from many people to backup the fact that when the ceramic wheel lets go, cermic dust gets back into the motor.

Its common knowledge these days.

People do NOT lunch motors first. It goes like this

Turbo dies

Dust back onto the pistons

Dead motor

See here for one of the many pictures floating around as evidence.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...howtopic=156091

You can clearly see from the pics the result of cermic dust totally destroying the pistons.

Nothing else would create that type of damage, and when you can see the ceramic particles, then... well... einstein will tell you it cant be anything else

You can say its impossible and not accept it for as long as you want, you dont have the proof to back that up.

The simple fact of he matter is... it does happen, and its has been proven to occur in a "more often than not" scenario.

Please dont mislead the rest of the members with misinformation

I have viewed these pic's and to me, its hard to come to a definitive conclusion. You can read as much as you want and look at as many pictures until your eyes are sore but it doesnt make you an expert.

If you have every seen a melted forged piston, it looks VERY similar to this. They seem to only melt around the ring land and leave the dish alone.

You can see on the first 3 pistons (in the back ground) that they are starting to suffer from the same fate, although not as bad. The carbon (or lack of) around the exhaust side of the piston is a dead give away. In fact, the first 2 pistons at the top (from the left) look like they are suffereing from the same effects.

If the front turbo didnt blow, how does a similar "phenomenon" happen in cylinders totally unrelated to the rear turbo? Again, im not being smart, just trying to put lodgic to it all.

Do a search on death sprial and you will find some info on what I am referring to.

To sum it up, its a combustion process that can leave part or the majority or the piston running quite rich, but other parts very lean. This causes overheating and the metal gets torn away from the piston in the combustion/exhaust process. All death spirals occour on the exhaust side as that is naturally the likely point of the least amount of air/fuel.

The only thing that makes me question this pic is that the last pic on the RHS is discoloured, however the pitting is classic lean death spiral. Im not sure if its the way the picture is taken.

If the guy who owns these pistons is in Sydney, I would like to take it to my engine builder. He has a mantel piece of melted forged pistons, damaged ring lands, bent rods, cranks that have snapped- if anyone is qualified to make an educated comment, he would be.

Do you know if I can get my hands on one of these? Even better the set? I can pick up/meet in Sydney or the owner can drop them off to his shop.

[R31Nismoid]

I have viewed these pic's and to me, its hard to come to a definitive conclusion. You can read as much as you want and look at as many pictures until your eyes are sore but it doesnt make you an expert.

Good for you.

[West]

This should help you to achive your goal faster!

A how to make 300kw with stock R32 turbines guide!

[wrxhoon]

Another none believer , ah well you will find out the hard way dude .

When this happened to the car with that engine( r33 GTR) a few years ago nobody would believe it either but today most people know about and soon you will find out too. well actualy I hope you don't.

I still have the pistons in the pic in my posesion ( I have shown them to heaps of people over the years).

If you think the pistons are melted , well I'm never going to convince you dude. You can see the ceramic bits imbeded on the top of the pistons , they are still there .

Not hard at all to do a high 11 second pass on stockers mate , I have done it on a heavier R33 gtr,

I have also done a 12.2 on a stock R33 GTR with just exhaust and power f/c . My R34 M-spec, much heavier that any 32 or 33 has a 11.8 @ 118 mph and only has about 260awkw . I know if I put on another dyno I can get 300 though . Kw on a dyno doesn't mean all that much because you can very the dyno to suit if you wish to do so .

Have a good look at this:

[amosite]

Good for you.

Come back?

Just to make you happy, I will get them to run it a touch richer on boost and get them to drop it into low 11's above 6,000

[amosite]

Have a good look at this:

Have these been touched at all? I mean have you cleaned the carbon off any of these?

Or is the discolouration from something else?

The uneven spread of carbon is not a good sign on mixtures, overall it may have

been running "rich enough" but it looks like 1 or 2 of the cylinders have been either

cleaned or running leaner.

The pitting on the ends nearly look like its had metal bouncing around in the combustion

but why isnt it on the crown of the piston is very interesting as with it being on both the intake

and exhaust side.

Do you have any more pictures you can email me? It might be enough to get an opinion

on without having to borrow them.

[wrxhoon]

Have these been touched at all? I mean have you cleaned the carbon off any of these?

Or is the discolouration from something else?

The uneven spread of carbon is not a good sign on mixtures, overall it may have

been running "rich enough" but it looks like 1 or 2 of the cylinders have been either

cleaned or running leaner.

The pitting on the ends nearly look like its had metal bouncing around in the combustion

but why isnt it on the crown of the piston is very interesting as with it being on both the intake

and exhaust side.

Do you have any more pictures you can email me? It might be enough to get an opinion

on without having to borrow them.

I'm telling you exacly how it happened dude , if you dont want to believe it its your choice.

What difference does it make if the pistons were cleaned or not? Of course its on both sides of the piston once it gets in the cylinder do you think it will stay put in one place ? The stuff was everywhere, some of it even got on the other 3 cylinders but tha main damage was in the rear 3.

Have you ever seen what happens to the exhaust wheel blades when it snaps off? Do a search on this forum and you will find pics . Unfortunantely I dont have mine .....

I have seen enough pistons in my life time to know a melted piston, I have seen plenty of melted pistons as well , especially on 2 stroke marine outbords. I have seen plenty with busted ringlands too.

It doen't matter how many pics I give you , I know I can't convince you but I'm sure one day you will find out for yourself as long as you keep your ceramic pistons ....

[R31Nismoid]

Come back?

Just to make you happy, I will get them to run it a touch richer on boost and get them to drop it into low 11's above 6,000

Not really, just pointless trying to help people that dont want it.

wrxhoon has summed it up perfectly. I need say no more.

Its either you believe or you dont, and if you dont believe... its more likely than not that you will when your pistons eat a cermic breakfast

Oh, btw, making it richer wont save it from pegging a turbo wheel

[Cubes]

Amosite,

Throw water/meth injection on it. Best chance of getting closer to your goal before they let go.

--

And for those interested in the FET coils.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FET-DIRECT-IGNITION...8QQcmdZViewItem

Not much of a price difference to new Splitfires from Nengun.