The Epa Thread/Roadworthy Thread

[R31Nismoid]

If your car came with an airbag, that was the year that needed it...

lol +1

[R31Nismoid]

That's so dumb coz that's where speed bumps will rip the exhaust off! Is there a maximum height that speed bumps are allowed to be? haha

Indeed RE: height vs humps. Glad i can just drive straight over them!

Speed humps are getting sharper and larger everytime i see new ones lately...

There are actually max specifications for speed humps, I'm sure the council could provide them... but them I'm sure the council could also make up a bag of lies to get around it.

[Peter89]

^ What do you mean "new"?

It's always been 90dB for a car/motor combination made in 1995.

im sure it was 96db until the last few years or so.

[R31Nismoid]

Unfortunately not

[frozenpod]

Document is here: EPA Guidelines (2006)

So guess what, given you only have a 1x Airbox, 1x Intercooler, 1x Plenum on pretty much every EFI car... What's left to change exactly? Painting the piping pink?

And you are only allowed to change two of those 3...

On top of that you are only allowed to mod one...

Guess what that leaves us with to do?

You are only allowed to make... 1 intake modification.

I suggest you read the guidlines again the 1 intake modification was the previous regulations which is no longer the case, changed in the as per above vehicle modification guildines dated 2006.

Whist on most turbo cars this means you would typically only fit legally an aftermarket FMIC if they didn't come with one from factory as it is the most effective modification in that case you cant do anything else which means only 1 intake modification but this doesn't mean you cannot have more than 1 intake modification in all situations.

For example you fit both a POD filter and a supercharger.

[alr33x]

the supercharger isnt the intake modification in itself the POD filter is the intake modification isnt the supercharger and engine enhancement/swap

like if u had a nonturbo skyline dropped a rb25det into it and slapped a pod on u cant go and have a cooler as well unless im wrong?

[frozenpod]

Intake system includes from free air to the cylinder head which includes air box, filter, piping, turbo, supercharger and intake manifold.

If you put a turbo motor from the same model that was orignally NA I think it has to be 100% as factory which would include what ever cooler came from factory ie side mount. You could then make modifications as per EPA guidlines ie FMIC.

[R31Nismoid]

I suggest you read the guidlines again the 1 intake modification was the previous regulations which is no longer the case, changed in the as per above vehicle modification guildines dated 2006.

Whist on most turbo cars this means you would typically only fit legally an aftermarket FMIC if they didn't come with one from factory as it is the most effective modification in that case you cant do anything else which means only 1 intake modification but this doesn't mean you cannot have more than 1 intake modification in all situations.

For example you fit both a POD filter and a supercharger.

Piping does not count.

You can't fit both a supercharger and a POD.

That is covered later on in that same document which you suggest that I read?

Perhaps doing some reading yourself so i don't have to waste my time protecting other people from incorrect information?

4. Turbochargers/superchargers

Turbocharging or supercharging an engine has the potential to increase the power of the engine. Designing a system that meets the ADR is a complex process. A poorly designed or fitted system will significantly increase exhaust emissions, increase fuel consumption and reduce engine life. An emission-controlled engine may be turbocharged or supercharged only if:

- the conversion is unconditionally endorsed in writing by the vehicle manufacturer as being ADR compliant

or

- the type conversion has ADR certification

or

- the converted vehicle is in all respects identical to the production turbocharged/supercharged vehicle.

For all intents and purposes a supercharger is illegal anyway as it is in the SAME boat as a aftermarket TURBO - unless approved without ADR full testing, it's illegal.

[alr33x]

i thought u can add supercharger or turbo to normally n/a vehicles and then do ur one mod on top of that? ie LS1 TT with pods? might be off topic but curious.. i thought a supercharger would fall into similar category

[frozenpod]

The previous EPA guidlines were a little different I no longer have a copy but they did allow for a turbo or supercharger to be installed provided they were done to meet certain requirements and the overrideing rule of only 1 intake modification.

As per above the 1 intake modification rule has been dropped but it would be in the case of a turbo car still restricted to only an aftermarket cooler.

Another example of more than one intake modification is BOV and POD filter, provided the BOV is not atmospheric venting it is legal to have both modifications.

Edited April 12, 2010 by frozenpod

[R31Nismoid]

A BOV (recirc) then comes under the direct replacement ruling as it operates and serves the same purpose as the factory item, in exactly the same wat.

For this reason it therefore totally negates a modification based on the replacement rule.

So again, you have still been unable to provide an example, and again been proven incorrect.

Anymore straws to clutch at?

i thought u can add supercharger or turbo to normally n/a vehicles and then do ur one mod on top of that? ie LS1 TT with pods? might be off topic but curious.. i thought a supercharger would fall into similar category

As it states, no blower, no turbo (with ADR). So no, you can't just go and bolt one on

The OLD laws, pre-2006 guidelines specifcally mentioned turbos only. Meaning Superchargers were a free for all as they were not mentioned and no not operate in the same fashion.

I suspect that to be one of the bigger reasons for the 2006 document.

[frozenpod]

A BOV (recirc) then comes under the direct replacement ruling as it operates and serves the same purpose as the factory item, in exactly the same wat.

For this reason it therefore totally negates a modification based on the replacement rule.

So again, you have still been unable to provide an example, and again been proven incorrect.

Anymore straws to clutch at?

Not all turbo cars came with a BOV from factory. If you fit a BOV where there was not a factory fitted BOV this is an aftermarket intake modification. Thence with POD and aftermarket BOV you can legally have more than 1 intake modification.

Given your experience with EPA I have the following question for you.

If you fitted an aftermarket supercharger before the 2006 EPA guidlines came out which was at the time 100% legal what happens now that the updated EPA guidlines are in place. Assume the installation is not ADR cert would this be in brech of EPA.

I ask this question as there is a large number of harrop blower kits running around on LS1's my boss has a blower setup which was installed in 2005 which was at the time perfectly legal but is it legal now.

Similarly there are people who have performed single turbo conversions on twin turbo supras which before 2006 was legal.

With ADR's the relevant ADR at the time is still in place years on but what happens with EPA guidlines?

[R31Nismoid]

That is just a case of the EPA not knowing any better. That does not mean you are legal.

There is a signifigant difference as the EPA are not viewing it as a modification, they are assuming it is factory as 95% of turbocharged cars from the mid 1980's all have BOV's.

Every Turbocharged car from the 1990's onwards ALL have BOV's.

You just get painted with the "you have a recirc BOV, you are OK" brush. The EPA only have detailed information on the common cars they see.

The wording in 2006 was just cleaning up a loop-hole. I'm no law expert in that sense, but the purpose of cleaning up a loop hole is so people cannot circumvent it.

This would mean regardless of when you did it, it is now illegal, it was previously illegal - but only "able" to exist via a loophole.

Single turbo conversions were NOT legal pre-2006.

[wht510]

Regarding the previous posts on aftermarket turbo kits for V8's or V6's or anything else that is commercially available. APS (a local melbourne supplier of aftermarket turbo charger systems to put twin turbo's on your v8 commodore or twin turbo's for your 350Z etc.) perform the necessary ADR testing to the emissions requirements and conform to the EPA rule:

Note: aftermarket turbocharging kits that

include intercoolers that have been type

tested (ADR certified) for the model vehicle

are permitted. Documentary proof must be

retained to substantiate this.

This basically means the company has paid the money for the test and done the R&D to get it to conform.

Technically you could fit a 350Z motor to your skyline with twin turbo's from the APS system and it would be 100% legal...

[wht510]

Regarding comments on engine replacement:

The EPA has stated:

Replacement of an original engine by any

other engine may be acceptable if it can be

shown by way of test or appropriate

engineering reasoning that the emissions are

equal to or less than could be expected from

the original vehicle.

So basically the Datsun 180B as previously mentioned by Ash with the Rb26DETT fitted (aside from the fact that this combination is illegal due to the weight of the motor, and the factory power output being over the limit for a car weighing under 1000kg... whereas an SR20 is perfect.........) can legally be fitted if justified by an engineer that the modifications performed are deemed equal to or less than the 'original vehicle'. Now this is open to discussion as the original vehicle could be the Datsun, or it could be the Skyline. I think in this case it is the skyline. So technically you could fit a pod filter, aftermarket intercooler and other associated odds and ends, and after the relevant tests performed and engineer sign off , it would be legal.

If in doubt speak to a VASS automotive engineer.

[R31Nismoid]

Yeah, there are various places.

I know the AVO Stage 1 kit for a VL Turbo for instance is ADR/EPA approved etc...

That said there is more than one way to skin a cat and I'm doubtful some of these cars that get tested/approved actually have all those mods on them @ the time...

I mean, its impossible to tell about cams, turbo sizes, injectors size etc. They are just stating that on the paper, nobody is checking it's actually there.

So you could effectively bolt on two big turbos and just go in there with a mickey mouse tune on factory gear, run 5psi and tell them it's running 1000hp @ 20psi, 1200cc injectors etc etc

[wht510]

im sure it was 96db until the last few years or so.

To answer this straight from the EPA document (perhaps we all need to read it to come back up to speed - I did for a refresher...)

Passenger vehicle (Other than a bus)

Date of manufacture______________________Noise level

Before 1 November 1983___________________96 dB(A)

After 1 November 1983_____________________90 dB(A)

So basically the Datsun 180B (HAHhahaha) has to pump out below 96db(A)

You poor suckers in your skylines have to pump out less than 90db(A)

Can anyone say KPGC110 Skyline? (96dB with an RB26DETT fitted????)

[alr33x]

90 - 96db still easy to shoot way over

[wht510]

If you backfire???

[frozenpod]

That is just a case of the EPA not knowing any better. That does not mean you are legal.

There is a signifigant difference as the EPA are not viewing it as a modification, they are assuming it is factory as 95% of turbocharged cars from the mid 1980's all have BOV's.

Every Turbocharged car from the 1990's onwards ALL have BOV's.

You just get painted with the "you have a recirc BOV, you are OK" brush. The EPA only have detailed information on the common cars they see.

The wording in 2006 was just cleaning up a loop-hole. I'm no law expert in that sense, but the purpose of cleaning up a loop hole is so people cannot circumvent it.

This would mean regardless of when you did it, it is now illegal, it was previously illegal - but only "able" to exist via a loophole.

Single turbo conversions were NOT legal pre-2006.

Not knowing better, I'm sure they do and I'm sure if you asked them they would be well aware that some turbo cars from factory didn't have BOV's.

As per above there is no overriding regulation that states you can only have 1 intake modification you are legal if you fit a BOV where no BOV was fitted from factory and install a POD filter.

I am not aware of there being a loop hole in the previous EPA guidlines relating to intake modifications allowing superchargers, there was a loop hole regarding electronics and ECUs which was caused by being poorly written and it has been removed. IMO as is harrops and a number of other supercharge kit manufactures per the previous guidlines an aftermarket supercharger if it was the only modification was legal. This is a black and white situation there is no 'it was previously illegal but you can have it because of a loop hole'.