The Epa Thread/Roadworthy Thread

[R31Nismoid]

^ sorry but it was illegal if you look at ADR's. You are beating a dead horse here once again.

It's illegal pre & post the 2006 ammendment regardless of how you want to view it or try to justify it. Whether the EPA mentioned it or not is irrelevant mate

Unless these Harrop kits were ADR approved kits - they are illegal, always were illegal, will forever be - illegal.

Ammendments/changes/rewrite more than anything would have been further clarification as opposed to new law. It's just highlighting what already existed.

As for the BOV... a little example once again. I had a BOV fitted to a RB20 red top, they do not come factory with a BOV.

However as there as very limited numbers and very little information from Nissan, so the EPA was not worries as they did not know better as as long as it's not ATMO they don't even take note of it. They do not note it down in their database as a modification - Yes you read correctly, the EPA actually keep a record of modifications viewed in a database. (They know i have a RB26, 3.5" exhaust, 2x mufflers, full RB26 emission controls etc etc)

So unfortunately first hand experience overrides assumption once again.

A 2 door HR31 or a Cefiro is a rare occurence in the testing bay. It's not a typical VL, R32/R33/R34 GTR/GTS-t, Supra, EVO, WRX etc. They see these cars all day, every day, they know exactly what hose is meant to connect to what - that is their level of knowledge of those models.

However obsecure makes/models almost have an advantage of sorts given there is little info available. I've also experienced this again, with my own GTS-R and the factory FMIC and so on.

[wht510]

Just to clarify a few of those comments previously.

There has been a revision to this rule. You can in fact run both a pod filter and aftermarket intercooler if your vehicle is built prior to June 1976. You are only obligated to meet the emission standards of the date your vehicle was built now (not engine). If pre 1976, your vehicle is only obligated to meet 4.5% CO readings at idle and 1200 rpm. In my case my car is cleaner than this requirement.. (insert picture of doves flying over head and heaps of green meadows filled with skantily clad blondes running in my direction to hug me)

This information was given to me from my engineer. It's great to know, because I was always worried about the pod filter I have.

Also, supposedly all I have to do for future modifications (ie larger turbo, injectors and electronic boost control... even aftermarket ECU) is notify my engineer for another CO test and he updates the report. As long as I am below 4.5% CO, i'm set!

Even more reason to buy that KPGC10 GTR or C110 or anything else old skool prior to 1976!

[R31Nismoid]

Got a link for that doco Nik???

EPA says:

Replacement of an original engine with an engine that was designed to meet more stringent requirements is permitted provided that the replacement engine is in its original configuration including all emissions-related devices or systems. For example you can replace the engine of your 1987 VL Holden Commodore with an engine made in 1997 for a VS Commodore.

They make no reference to Pre-1976... Just that the motor (if newer), must carry the new emissions gear.

Although given the guidelines are a summary... I'm sure there is a more detailed version somewhere for some 'light' bedtime reading lol

[wht510]

The document you refer to isn't for pre 1976 cars. I'll dig out the official requirement for ya.

[R31Nismoid]

Legend! I can add that to the ever growing pile of car legality files on my PC, anyone would think im obsessed

[wht510]

From the EPA website the 'Modified vehicle guide line' says that the guideline is not applicable to vehicle pre June 1976 (ADR 27A), then the default is the Motor Vehicle Safety act of 2009 which requires the max of 4.5% CO requirement.

[Russman]

Legend! I can add that to the ever growing pile of car legality files on my PC, anyone would think im obsessed

Ahh.... Yes...

[frozenpod]

^ sorry but it was illegal if you look at ADR's. You are beating a dead horse here once again.

It's illegal pre & post the 2006 ammendment regardless of how you want to view it or try to justify it. Whether the EPA mentioned it or not is irrelevant mate

Unless these Harrop kits were ADR approved kits - they are illegal, always were illegal, will forever be - illegal.

Ammendments/changes/rewrite more than anything would have been further clarification as opposed to new law. It's just highlighting what already existed.

I am not aware that adding an aftermarket supercharger is in breach of ADR similar adding a turbo provided it is safe road worthy ect and doesn't increase the HP beyond a certain amount I think 25% from memory.

Can you please clarify how an aftermarket supercharger is in breach of ADR's.

As for the BOV... a little example once again. I had a BOV fitted to a RB20 red top, they do not come factory with a BOV.

However as there as very limited numbers and very little information from Nissan, so the EPA was not worries as they did not know better as as long as it's not ATMO they don't even take note of it. They do not note it down in their database as a modification - Yes you read correctly, the EPA actually keep a record of modifications viewed in a database. (They know i have a RB26, 3.5" exhaust, 2x mufflers, full RB26 emission controls etc etc)

So unfortunately first hand experience overrides assumption once again.

You have posted time and time again in response to people getting away with mods and them not being picked up. Your comments have been along the lines of just because they didn't pick up on it or you got away with it does not legal ect.

Your example is exactly the same, your BOV was an aftermarket modification it was just a case of the BOV not being pick up which doesn't mean it was not a modification.

[alr33x]

from reading that though he fitted a legal blow off being that it didnt vent to atmo so the epa wouldnt have taken issue with it regardless.

[R31Nismoid]

I am not aware that adding an aftermarket supercharger is in breach of ADR similar adding a turbo provided it is safe road worthy ect and doesn't increase the HP beyond a certain amount I think 25% from memory.

Can you please clarify how an aftermarket supercharger is in breach of ADR's.

Emissions for one is obvious.

I'd be sure there are plenty of ADR's that it is not inline with - however I've not got the time to go through 1000 pages of documentation and I don't really care about supercharged cars as it doesn't affect most skyline owners.

The EPA document clearly states it's illegal without approval - That's all i need to know on it really.

You have posted time and time again in response to people getting away with mods and them not being picked up. Your comments have been along the lines of just because they didn't pick up on it or you got away with it does not legal ect.

Your example is exactly the same, your BOV was an aftermarket modification it was just a case of the BOV not being pick up which doesn't mean it was not a modification.

I never said it was not a modification.

I said, quite clearly, it was a modification that was not picked up/noted down. There is a difference.

This is due to the EPA simply not being educated enough on every single model/make/incarnation. I'm sure if they knew the car was NOT meant to have a BOV, then they would pin you for it.

Given all the EPA care about in this instance is that the BOV is recirc or not,. If they see a RECIRC BOV, they move on.

They do not note it down as a modification as in the eyes of the EPA a RECIRC BOV it is not a modification, they just assume it is factory (or replacement).

Just because you know it's a modification doesn't mean squat at the end of the day.

Now i've said this twice, maybe 3 times. If you don't understand it I'm honestly struggling to explain it in such a way that you do.

[frozenpod]

Emissions for one is obvious.

I'd be sure there are plenty of ADR's that it is not inline with - however I've not got the time to go through 1000 pages of documentation and I don't really care about supercharged cars as it doesn't affect most skyline owners.

The EPA document clearly states it's illegal without approval - That's all i need to know on it really.

I was reffering to the previous EPA requirements that as per my previous comment I cant find my copy of which did allow for a supercharger under the one intake modification ruel. As I remember it, this was not in breach of EPA under the previous guidlines as it was as I understood it previously legal dispite your comments of it being illegal but allowed due to a loop hole.

The only potential issue as I understood it was with ADR and road worthyness not with EPA with the previous guidlines which is no longer the case. I believe the ADR requirements were not a big deal provided you didn't increase the HP beyond 25% you didn't require certification if pollution gear was in place factory ECU and injectors but I could be wrong about this hence why I asked my previous question.

But as you seem to be refering to the current EPA guidlines yes as you have said they require ADR certification for an aftermarket supercharger. In the case of a supercharger ADR certification requries inspection by an engineer and signed off report. When I spoke to a supercharger kit manufacture who has ADR certification they said there kit meet ADR regulations and all they had to do was have it signed off on. I was told and I quote from memory that it was a single inspection mechnical only and check of all factory pollution gear and stock engine management was operating as factory. No emissons testing was required as all the factory pollution gear AFM ect were still in place as was factory injectors and ECU.

So reffering to the new EPA guidlines and ADR's they clearly can meet them and it isn't an emissions issue unless you start changing injectors ECUs AFM ect.

As to the EPA guidlines and my first statement that introduced the supercharger and POD filter for what it is worth I was told this by EPA over the phone when I was checking if what I wanted to do was legal on my at the time twin turbo soarer. I was clearly told that there is no longer 1 intake modification rule and the example provided was you can have a supercharger and a POD filter, the next example was a BOV where no BOV was fitted from factory and a POD filter. This was provided by EPA over the phone.

This is why I have used these two examples as they were used by EPA in an explination to me.

I never said it was not a modification.

I said, quite clearly, it was a modification that was not picked up/noted down. There is a difference.

Yes that is what I said "your BOV was an aftermarket modification it was just a case of the BOV not being pick up"

This is due to the EPA simply not being educated enough on every single model/make/incarnation. I'm sure if they knew the car was NOT meant to have a BOV, then they would pin you for it.

Given all the EPA care about in this instance is that the BOV is recirc or not,. If they see a RECIRC BOV, they move on.

They do not note it down as a modification as in the eyes of the EPA a RECIRC BOV it is not a modification, they just assume it is factory (or replacement).

Just because you know it's a modification doesn't mean squat at the end of the day.

As per my previous comments it is legal from what I understand to have more than one intake modification (except with an aftermarket intercooler) which could be a BOV where there was no BOV from factory and POD filter.

Regardless of if you get picked up on this, you do agree that if you fit a BOV where no BOV was fitted from factory that this is a modification but do you agree that this would be legal?

Do you also agree that if you have both a POD filter and BOV where no BOV was fitted from factory ie two intake modifications that this was also be legal under the current EPA guidlines.

Now i've said this twice, maybe 3 times. If you don't understand it I'm honestly struggling to explain it in such a way that you do.

[R31Nismoid]

Page 36 had you saying the supercharger kits were legal/now they might not... Yet page 37 has you now saying they are ADR approved... which is it?

If they are ADR approved - why are you even bringing it up? I don't get it.

I've re-read the last two pages to try and workout where you've gone down the wrong track ... I suspect i've worked it out.

For the Nissan Skyline (this is a Skyline forum afterall)... You can only make one intake modification. FMIC or a POD filter. That is it.

I've never once said in the 37 pages of this thread that there is a "1 intake modification rule". Just that you can only make one intake mod. There is a difference.

You said 'rule', I never have.

So... page 35 in response to Thelen (who is looking to buy a Skyline funnily enough...), and added the word "rule" to it... dunno how, i never said that.

I said "Illegal (unless 1 intake mod)" as that is ALL he can legally do on his skyline - make 1 intake mod. Such a statement is 100% correct.

[frozenpod]

Page 36 had you saying the supercharger kits were legal/now they might not... Yet page 37 has you now saying they are ADR approved... which is it?

If they are ADR approved - why are you even bringing it up? I don't get it.

I thought my posts were clear, but I must be mistaken.

I asked a question, the question was regarding if an installation or modification meeting the current guidlines at the time the modification was made if a new guidline came in which stated that same modification was no longer legal is that modification still legal as it was done to meet the guidlines at the time. ie If you car was built to ADR37/01 emissions if you need to pass an emissions test you car needs to meet the ADR37/01 emissions not the current ADR79/01. I think we have estabilished that the previous guidline is no longer valid unliked ADR's so you would have to meet the current guidlines which could potentially mean removing modifications, changing them to meet the current guidlines, getting certification ect.

I have reponded to your statement about superchargers being illegal loop hole statment with trying to understand what you meant as it was either legal or not legal you haven't explained where you comment of supercharger kits being illegal came from.

The wording in 2006 was just cleaning up a loop-hole. I'm no law expert in that sense, but the purpose of cleaning up a loop hole is so people cannot circumvent it.

This would mean regardless of when you did it, it is now illegal, it was previously illegal - but only "able" to exist via a loophole.

As per my previous comments information provided by a local supercharger kit manufacture 'the supercharger kits which were not previously ADR certified even though they meet ADR requirements (ADR certification not required under the previous guidlines) when ADR certification was required under the current guidlines the manufacture organised ADR certification to meet the current guidlines.'

IE the blower kits were legal under the previous guidlines and there new kits are as well and they are ADR certified. As to the previous kits without certification I assume they are not strickly legal in an EPA sense as per above (previous guidlines verse current) as they do not have certification even though they did meet the requirements at the time.

I've re-read the last two pages to try and workout where you've gone down the wrong track ... I suspect i've worked it out.

For the Nissan Skyline (this is a Skyline forum afterall)... You can only make one intake modification. FMIC or a POD filter. That is it.

I've never once said in the 37 pages of this thread that there is a "1 intake modification rule". Just that you can only make one intake mod. There is a difference.

You said 'rule', I never have.

So... page 35 in response to Thelen (who is looking to buy a Skyline funnily enough...), and added the word "rule" to it... dunno how, i never said that.

I said "Illegal (unless 1 intake mod)" as that is ALL he can legally do on his skyline - make 1 intake mod. Such a statement is 100% correct.

Previous post.{

QUOTE (R31Nismoid @ 12 Apr 2010, 10:59 AM) Plenum - Illegal (unless 1 intake mod)

POD - Illegal (unless 1 intake mod)

FMIC - Illegal (unless 1 intake mod)

Injectors - Illegal, given you need aftermarket ECU to run them...[/qte]

1 intake mod??

You have this regulation from the EPA modification guidlines wrong if you think you are only allowed 1 intake modification.

You can have as many intake modifications as you like provided they meet the requirements unless you have an aftermarket intercooler which in the case of an aftermarket intercooler it is the only modification that you are allowed to have.

Modfied plenum chambers are not legal under any circumstances without ADR approval.

}

Your post indicated that an aftermarket plenum would be legal if it was the only modification ie unless 1 intake mod which is not the case.

It also appeared to me to indicate that you were refering to the one intake modification rule and yes I did say rule and you didn't.

[Aaron Hazard]

Hmm not sure if this has been answered before,

Carbon Fibre parts i.e bonnet, boot lid , etc illigal in anyway?

Got hail damage; fail; thinking mite as well replace with Carbon fibre.

thanx!

[R31Nismoid]

Full carbon fibre bonnets are illegal.

Due to what happens in an accident.

[ronburgundy]

what if you have a pod and the bloody thing wont come off!

[Aaron Hazard]

Cheers nismoid,

guess im gonna have to find a part carbon fibre bonnet =D

[greensa14]

Can anyone confirm who has had to get the emissions test done recently that a FMIC is ok with standard airbox?

I have changed to standard zorst, BOV, etc. Just need to know about the cooler????

Edited April 25, 2010 by greensa14

[R31Nismoid]

Did you not read the first page?

[alr33x]

what if you have a pod and the bloody thing wont come off!

try harder

Can anyone confirm who has had to get the emissions test done recently that a FMIC is ok with standard airbox?

I have changed to standard zorst, BOV, etc. Just need to know about the cooler????

as long as the cooler is the only remaining intake modification you should be fine, since you havent mentioned engine mods will assume its stock other than this.

other wise keep workin no boost controllers etc