Stagea Towing Info?

[Rbware]

Can any one help us? Looking to find out the below in relation to the Stagea:

1. What is the maximum vehicle towing capacity?

2. What is the maximum tow ball weight?

Very interested in considering a Stagea, how ever we have struggled to find out any information relating to their towing capacity.......

Cheers

[Terminal]

They don't come with tow bars, you need to get custom ones made. I guess it depends on what the tow bar engineer says.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=49484

there has been numerous threads on this already. Search is your friend.

[Duncan]

I don't know the answer to either question.

But I do know I'm towing over 2tonne regularly (gtr and trailer) without any problems. Rear is too low but thats because I haven't put new shocks and firmer springs in yet (Sydneykid's group buy).

It does a great job

[warps]

I'm towing over 2tonne regularly (gtr and trailer) without any problems.

Oooo - just hope to god you never prang it. Good luck getting an insurance company to ever pay up. How's the breakaway system set up on the trailer, just out of interest?

[Duncan]

well...the best answer I can give to that is that the GVM on the rego papers is 1900kg. 2000kg is an estimate based on the trailer tare 500kg and gtr 1500kg It has full electric brakes but no breakaway system

[Sydneykid]

Like Duncan I tow the race car with our Stagea, ours is a little lighter being an R32GTST weighing 1200 kgs with a similar 500 kg trailer with electric brakes. I also carry around 200 kgs of tools and spares. Two up, with that sort of load, the Stagea itself weighs ~2 tonnes, so towing 1,700 kgs is a breeze. Much better than the ED Foulcan waggon we used before the Stagea.

Legal....I have no idea, the numbers say that it is

I pass Police cars regularly and have never had any questions asked

Safe....as safe as any other 3.7 tonne projectile

Feels a whole lot safer than the Foulcan and the Toyota HiLux that preceeded it

Insurance.... is OK

The Stagea, the trailer and the race car are all insured through Shannons

So they know about the whole package.

cheers

[warps]

Yeh, wasn't trying to be smart (although I admit did come across that way). just that one you go over 2 tonnes, the rules change. You must have brakes on all 4 trailer wheels, and a breakaway system fitted (according to federal legislation).

Most people don't know (or care) about this (including cops) until you try to make a claim and then the insurance comapny will drop you like a hot potato.

Pretty sad really, considering many hire trailers can weigh up to 800+kg. doesn't leave much room for a car

I tow my rally car with a Forester XT (manufacturer rated at 1800kg) and it never feels happy about it. Power is not a problem - I can overtake comfortably - even uphill, just the whole combo moves the Forrie around a bit much for my liking.

As far as towing capacity goes, I'm pretty sure that the laws state that the car's towing capacity is the greater of its TARE weight, or manufacturer's official rating. In the absence of a rating (does the Stagea have one) you're limited to towing the same weight as an unladen Stagea. that may vary state to state though.

[Sydneykid]

Yeh, wasn't trying to be smart (although I admit did come across that way). just that one you go over 2 tonnes, the rules change. You must have brakes on all 4 trailer wheels, and a breakaway system fitted (according to federal legislation).

Most people don't know (or care) about this (including cops) until you try to make a claim and then the insurance comapny will drop you like a hot potato.

Pretty sad really, considering many hire trailers can weigh up to 800+kg. doesn't leave much room for a car

I tow my rally car with a Forester XT (manufacturer rated at 1800kg) and it never feels happy about it. Power is not a problem - I can overtake comfortably - even uphill, just the whole combo moves the Forrie around a bit much for my liking.

As far as towing capacity goes, I'm pretty sure that the laws state that the car's towing capacity is the greater of its TARE weight, or manufacturer's official rating. In the absence of a rating (does the Stagea have one) you're limited to towing the same weight as an unladen Stagea. that may vary state to state though.

A Forrester GT weighs about 200 kgs less than a Stagea. Plus it is a front wheel drive waggon that drives a little bit at the rear, ocassionally. The Stagea is a rear wheel drive waggon that drives occasionally at the front. Big difference, that's why we get almost no "pushing" from the trailer.

I have no concerns with insurance, Shannons know the weights of all three (Stagea, R32GTST and trailer).

The NSW regulations are;

1. All trailers with a Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) exceeding 750kg and first registered after 30 June 1990

are required to be fitted with an efficient braking system. For trailers with a GTM of up to 2 tonnes,

this braking system can be either an overrun system or one that is operated from the driver's seat.

2. For trailers with a GTM exceeding 2 tonnes, the braking system must be capable of being applied from

the driver’s seat - overrun brakes are not acceptable. In addition, the braking system must be such

that if the trailer accidentally breaks away (from the towing vehicle), the trailer brakes will apply

automatically and remain applied for at least 15 minutes.

3. It should be noted that the brakes must operate on ALL WHEELS (exceptions are trailers not over 2

tonnes Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) and trailers manufactured prior to ADR 38/--. Their service

brakes must operate on all wheels on at least one axle).

(ATM = the weight of the trailer, its load and the draw bar load)

(GTM = the weight of the trailer and its load)

ie; the only difference is GTM doesn't include the draw bar weight.

Since my ATM is not over 2 tonnes, rule #2 does not apply to me.

This is an Australian Design Rule (ADR #38) so it SHOULD apply everywhere in Australia. But some states are notorious for ignoring ADR's, so best to check with your local Authority.

cheers

[warps]

A Forrester GT weighs about 200 kgs less than a Stagea. Plus it is a front wheel drive waggon that drives a little bit at the rear, ocassionally. The Stagea is a rear wheel drive waggon that drives occasionally at the front. Big difference, that's why we get almost no "pushing" from the trailer.

Well, firstly, the XT is full time AWD, not a Front driver driving the rear wheels on occasion. Far better for towing than any other setup - even the Nissan ATESSA system. Secondly, nothing wrong with front drive vehicles for towing (WRT stability). Some traction problems and long term structural integrity issues can be a concern, but one of the best tow vehicles I've used was a TH Magna. i wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't experienced it myself.

my criticism of the Forester is as much the blame of the trailer (very short drawbar, and some gemetry issues in the axle design) as the Forester itself. I've never towed another heavy trailer with the Forry, nor have I towed the car trailer behind another vehicle, so can't comment for sure. The self levelling rear suspension also makes it hard to gauge the weight on the towball, which as you'd know has a huge effect on the towing stability. I'm still fine tuning that aspect of it.

Looking again at the ADR's, my interpretation is that the ATM is the total mass of the trailer, ie unhitch it on a weighbridge and it's the total weight of the combo. The GTM is the load that the trailer exerts on the ground, ie the total mass less the towball vertical load (often about 100-200kg). In that case, a 600kg trailer with a 1500kg car on it still qualifies as GTM under 2 tonnes, if the drawbar load is 150kg (about what it should be)

Anyone comment on this?

[Sydneykid]

Well, firstly, the XT is full time AWD, not a Front driver driving the rear wheels on occasion. Far better for towing than any other setup - even the Nissan ATESSA system. Secondly, nothing wrong with front drive vehicles for towing (WRT stability). Some traction problems and long term structural integrity issues can be a concern, but one of the best tow vehicles I've used was a TH Magna. i wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't experienced it myself.

my criticism of the Forester is as much the blame of the trailer (very short drawbar, and some gemetry issues in the axle design) as the Forester itself. I've never towed another heavy trailer with the Forry, nor have I towed the car trailer behind another vehicle, so can't comment for sure. The self levelling rear suspension also makes it hard to gauge the weight on the towball, which as you'd know has a huge effect on the towing stability. I'm still fine tuning that aspect of it.

Looking again at the ADR's, my interpretation is that the ATM is the total mass of the trailer, ie unhitch it on a weighbridge and it's the total weight of the combo. The GTM is the load that the trailer exerts on the ground, ie the total mass less the towball vertical load (often about 100-200kg). In that case, a 600kg trailer with a 1500kg car on it still qualifies as GTM under 2 tonnes, if the drawbar load is 150kg (about what it should be)

Anyone comment on this?

The Forrester has a centre differential, the engine drives the front wheels ALL THE TIME, hence the rear wheels can NEVER have more than 50% of the drive. The Stagea has no centre differential, the engine drives the rear wheels ALL THE TIME. They can (and do) receive more than 50% of the drive, MOST of the time. Hence, BIG difference.

I have also towed a race car with a Magna, albeit under 1500 kgs all up, and it was fine. Except taking off from a standstill in the rain, that was tricky. Plus I got it bogged in the pits more than once when it thunder stormed late in the day. Did the same with the Foulcan, so that's not too much of black mark.

For determining draw bar weight, try a set of scales under the jocky wheel set at the towing height, it gives a pretty good indication.

You got it, with ATM versus GTM, the draw bar weight is the difference. If it has a GTM under 2 tonnes then you don't need break away brakes. But if the ATM is over 2 tonnes, then the brakes have to work on all wheels.

So in your example (ATM 2100 kgs, GTM 1950 KGS) the way I read it, the trailer would need brakes on all wheels, but no break away braking system. And those brakes would not need to "be capable of being applied from the driver’s seat". eg; 4 wheel overrun brakes would be OK.

cheers

[warps]

Yet when the going gets slippery, the Subaru system is far better than the Nissan system because it delivers torque to the wheel as soon as any slip ocurs, not when the compueter decides that a predetermined set of parameters has been met. I've personally experienced this on track days where the GTR's kept falling off the track backwards (along with every other 2WD car out there) and the Subys just kept going round and round.

If there's no slip, then it doesn't matter a toss what wheels are driving. I'm just saying that the Subaru system copes with loss of traction better than the artificial environment created by the Nissan system

I know we can argue the merits of each all day, and I gather we'll never agree on the matter, so I'm more than happy to agree to disagree. Besides, in this case the biggest factor affecting stability for towing is the weight of the towing vehicle, which is where the Stag has a 150-ish kg advantage.

I'm hopefully picking up a new tdi pathfinder very soon, so the Forry will become the family taxi and the Pathfinder will be my toy.

Interesting about your comments on the Falcon tow car. I had an XG (EL) XR6 ute before the Magna, which I thought was OK until I tried the Magna. The Ute used to get bogged in the grass behind my house as well. I think only a 4Wd would have gotten me out of that one though.

[munchstagea]

Probably not for usage on a race track or normal driving situations at all, the Stagea has a little button on the dash that can be pressed to give 50/50 split front/rear, driving away on wet slippery grass with no fuss at all.

[Sydneykid]

Yet when the going gets slippery, the Subaru system is far better than the Nissan system because it delivers torque to the wheel as soon as any slip ocurs, not when the compueter decides that a predetermined set of parameters has been met. I've personally experienced this on track days where the GTR's kept falling off the track backwards (along with every other 2WD car out there) and the Subys just kept going round and round.

If there's no slip, then it doesn't matter a toss what wheels are driving. I'm just saying that the Subaru system copes with loss of traction better than the artificial environment created by the Nissan system

I know we can argue the merits of each all day, and I gather we'll never agree on the matter, so I'm more than happy to agree to disagree. Besides, in this case the biggest factor affecting stability for towing is the weight of the towing vehicle, which is where the Stag has a 150-ish kg advantage.

I'm hopefully picking up a new tdi pathfinder very soon, so the Forry will become the family taxi and the Pathfinder will be my toy.

Interesting about your comments on the Falcon tow car. I had an XG (EL) XR6 ute before the Magna, which I thought was OK until I tried the Magna. The Ute used to get bogged in the grass behind my house as well. I think only a 4Wd would have gotten me out of that one though.

The non spinning in the wet is not due to the 4wd system, it is due to front wheel drive first bias

The worst tow car I ever had was an SS manual ute, 1st was too high and the lack of weight over the rear wheels was a dissaster, then I was always worried about stuff being stolen out of the back. I moved it on very quickly.

cheers

[warps]

Even more front bias than the FWD cars? (which were spinning off the track too)

[Sydneykid]

Even more front bias than the FWD cars? (which were spinning off the track too)

Some people can't drive

cheers

[Duncan]

c'mon guys on topic please

munchdesign I used S mode all the time when manuovering the trailer it is great for ensuring 0 loss of traction even over gutter, wet grass, small children, whatever