Sudden Oversteer

[Black_Widow34]

before i ask any questions let me just give you a little history lesson.

i crashed my car around xmas last year, what happen was i was driving in the rain and i went through a long corner (very fimiliar with this corner as i driven through it in different cars in different condidtions). i was going fairly quick but i wouldn't say anywhere close to fast enough to loose control when on exiting the corner the rear end just kicked out so i done an opposite lock and let go of the gas the rear still kept sliding so i braked. long story short i went through a farmers wire fence and done over $10k cosmetic damage to my car (thank god for insurance). the tyres i have are shocking in the rain (gt radials champiro) so i thought that was it. well i drove the car on sunday night and it was wet coz it stopped raining like an hour ago. i turned right at a roundabout when all of a sudden the rear end just kicked out when i was leaving the roundabout. now before you accuse me of doing anything stupid i was really tired and was driving very very slow. i saw a hyundai go throught the roundabout much faster then me. well anyways i hit a sharp kerb with my front wheels fairly hard and f*&ked up my wheel balance and alignment as far as i can tell but im going to take the car in on the weekend to get it inspected (there is a bit of a rubbing noise now so i hope i didnt f%&k up anything).

my mods are (all done before i bought the car):

lowered 1.5 inches on king springs

urathine bushes in the front only

235 shyt gt radial tyres on stock rims

everything else is stock

now for the questions:

1 are rear wheel drive skylines suppose to be like this (i hope not coz if so im selling mine and buyng an evo)?

2 i know my tyres are crap but what happen on sunday puzzles me coz i bearly accelerated in 2nd so i dont think its the tyres is it?

3 do the urathing bushes act different in the dry and the wet?

4 what alignment settings should i give the guy who will align it on the weekend (give that i have a pretty such stock suspension setup)?

5 any ideas what i can do/ check?

ps. im going to do a driving course in 2 weeks so i want this issue to be fixed by then...

thanks for any helpful post

Edited February 28, 2007 by Black_Widow34

[Sydneykid]

before i ask any questions let me just give you a little history lesson.

i crashed my car around xmas last year, what happen was i was driving in the rain and i went through a long corner (very fimiliar with this corner as i driven through it in different cars in different condidtions). i was going fairly quick but i wouldn't say anywhere close to fast enough to loose control when on exiting the corner the rear end just kicked out so i done an opposite lock and let go of the gas the rear still kept sliding so i braked. long story short i went through a farmers wire fence and done over $10k cosmetic damage to my car (thank god for insurance). the tyres i have are shocking in the rain (gt radials champiro) so i thought that was it. well i drove the car on sunday night and it was wet coz it stopped raining like an hour ago. i turned right at a roundabout when all of a sudden the rear end just kicked out when i was leaving the roundabout. now before you accuse me of doing anything stupid i was really tired and was driving very very slow. i saw a hyundai go throught the roundabout much faster then me. well anyways i hit a sharp kerb with my front wheels fairly hard and f*&ked up my wheel balance and alignment as far as i can tell but im going to take the car in on the weekend to get it inspected (there is a bit of a rubbing noise now so i hope i didnt f%&k up anything).

my mods are (all done before i bought the car):

lowered 1.5 inches on king springs

urathine bushes in the front only

235 shyt gt radial tyres on stock rims

everything else is stock

now for the questions:

1 are rear wheel drive skylines suppose to be like this (i hope not coz if so im selling mine and buyng an evo)?

2 i know my tyres are crap but what happen on sunday puzzles me coz i bearly accelerated in 2nd so i dont think its the tyres is it?

3 do the urathing bushes act different in the dry and the wet?

4 what alignment settings should i give the guy who will align it on the weekend (give that i have a pretty such stock suspension setup)?

5 any ideas what i can do/ check?

ps. im going to do a driving course in 2 weeks so i want this issue to be fixed by then...

thanks for any helpful post

Lowered springs and standard shocks...........have a read of this thread

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...&hl=Springs

cheers

[mid life crisis]

my sons r33 was having almost the same as you describe . it turns out the hicas unit was screwed i fitted a hicas lock bar and problem solved.

maybe its worth getting yours looked at cheers

mid life crisis

[phunky_monkey]

I'd bet on the lowered springs with stock shocks mate.

My old 180 was a pig of a car, and I ended up having a fair accident in it partly due to my actions, but a lot to do with the worn out shocks and lowered springs. I replaced my stuffed stockied with some KYB AGX's and problem was solved

[Black_Widow34]

Lowered springs and standard shocks...........have a read of this thread

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...&hl=Springs

cheers

thanks for that mate. i will definitly look into getting your group buy package as soon as i have a bit of spare money (should be few months) untill then no other mods for me and extremly safe driving. just a quick qusetion why does it do this only in the wet but in the dry its fine. in the dry i can take corner at ok speeds and there might be a bit of power oversteer if i want but if i dont the car behalves itself? also what alignment setting should i give the guy on the weekend? as far as i understand only the toe is adjustable is this right?

thanks again for your post

[Black_Widow34]

my sons r33 was having almost the same as you describe . it turns out the hicas unit was screwed i fitted a hicas lock bar and problem solved.

maybe its worth getting yours looked at cheers

mid life crisis

thanks for your reply. i was thinking about the hicus as well but on sunday i was realy going very slow so even if the rear wheels turned a bit it would turn gradualy and i would feel the rear coming around and corect it but this was very sudden as if someone took the tyres of the back and i was left with only rims lol...

[Black_Widow34]

I'd bet on the lowered springs with stock shocks mate.

My old 180 was a pig of a car, and I ended up having a fair accident in it partly due to my actions, but a lot to do with the worn out chocks and lowered springs. I replaced my stuffed stockied with some KYB AGX's and problem was solved

yeah after reading the link SK posted im suspecting the shocks as well coz the car has about 65k kms on the clock and i got it with the springs so i dont know for how many kms the lowered springs have been on it so therefore the shocks could be stuffed. also its weird how the car has urathine bushes but only in the front???

cheers for your thoughts....

[NickR33]

did the same thing... had King springs with stock shocks + worn federals (terrible tires) and put it backwards through a barbed wire fence when it was pouring with rain near the dandenongs... wasn't driving fast just cruising along

now I have all the SK group buy stuff and some pretty $ tires and car feels solid in all road conditions (not that I ever drive fast in the wet anyway... pretty much a death wish in a RWD Skyline unless your the Stig)

[stolen_s15]

Also because your car is lowered with no camber correction you probably have some extra negative camber on the rear. This will reduce the amount of contact the tyre has with the road, reducing grip even more.

[Black_Widow34]

did the same thing... had King springs with stock shocks + worn federals (terrible tires) and put it backwards through a barbed wire fence when it was pouring with rain near the dandenongs... wasn't driving fast just cruising along

now I have all the SK group buy stuff and some pretty $ tires and car feels solid in all road conditions (not that I ever drive fast in the wet anyway... pretty much a death wish in a RWD Skyline unless your the Stig)

but i am the stig... hahahahaha... just jokes i drive much slower in the wet... thanks for your input especially since you have had first hand experience and the setup you had sounds like mine. im gonna get the kit from SK as soon as i get a few bucks together.

Sydneykid - would you recomend that i buy only the shocks from you for now to fix the issue or at least make it a bit better untill i can afford the whole kit or would the new shocks get worn out quickly as well if i dont use the rest of the kit?

[NickR33]

grab the shocks now... save up for the rest of the stuff later... make sure your car is at a 'reasonable' ride height... and buy some decent tires

the worst thing about the hard springs with stock shocks was the change of direction... it would hang the ass out one way fine but then snap back so hard it was scary... the axle hop on acceleration was terrible too, made for awesome 2.4sec 60ft times at the drags hahaha

[Beer Baron]

i'm going to go against the grain here and say its the tyres. yes the springs/shocks combo is not ideal, but if the car is behaving in the dry, but then has unpredictable levels on grip in the wet then all signs point to tyres.

for example one of my cars is a 32 GTST. i have driven it with good tyres and 2 different suspension set-ups (1 stock, 1 tein coil overs). it was very predictable wet and dry. now driving it with falken 326s (i think that's them - whatever the cheapest falkens are) it's fine in the dry, very predictable even though it doesn't have huge grip. BUT in the wet it's an oversteer machine. now bear in mind this is a standard (just cat back and pod) GTST probably lucky to have 100rwkw and yet with 235/45/17s all round on 17X9 blitz wheels it will easily smoke the tyres in 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the wet! hell it lights the tyres just coming onto boost under hard acceleration in 2nd. I know it has low grip, and it's a fairly easy car to chuck around so it doesn't really bother me, but I can see if I wasn't expecting it, it could catch me out quite easily.

the other problem you have is one of driving. jumping off the gass as the car broke into a slide would have given you massive lift off oversteer which would have spun you around very rapidly. it's no comment against you. you only learn these things through instruction, and experience. you are currently getting experience what you need now is instruction

[Black_Widow34]

Also because your car is lowered with no camber correction you probably have some extra negative camber on the rear. This will reduce the amount of contact the tyre has with the road, reducing grip even more.

i forgot to mention that i noticed that the inside of the tyres gets worn out a fair bit. is this due to what you are saying?

[Black_Widow34]

grab the shocks now... save up for the rest of the stuff later... make sure your car is at a 'reasonable' ride height... and buy some decent tires

the worst thing about the hard springs with stock shocks was the change of direction... it would hang the ass out one way fine but then snap back so hard it was scary... the axle hop on acceleration was terrible too, made for awesome 2.4sec 60ft times at the drags hahaha

sounds like my car. when it oversteers and you correct it you have to be very careful for it not to snap in the other direction.

wow 2.4sec... im guessing that would equal close to a 16sec 1/4 in a stock skyline... nice... lol

[Black_Widow34]

i'm going to go against the grain here and say its the tyres. yes the springs/shocks combo is not ideal, but if the car is behaving in the dry, but then has unpredictable levels on grip in the wet then all signs point to tyres.

for example one of my cars is a 32 GTST. i have driven it with good tyres and 2 different suspension set-ups (1 stock, 1 tein coil overs). it was very predictable wet and dry. now driving it with falken 326s (i think that's them - whatever the cheapest falkens are) it's fine in the dry, very predictable even though it doesn't have huge grip. BUT in the wet it's an oversteer machine. now bear in mind this is a standard (just cat back and pod) GTST probably lucky to have 100rwkw and yet with 235/45/17s all round on 17X9 blitz wheels it will easily smoke the tyres in 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the wet! hell it lights the tyres just coming onto boost under hard acceleration in 2nd. I know it has low grip, and it's a fairly easy car to chuck around so it doesn't really bother me, but I can see if I wasn't expecting it, it could catch me out quite easily.

the other problem you have is one of driving. jumping off the gass as the car broke into a slide would have given you massive lift off oversteer which would have spun you around very rapidly. it's no comment against you. you only learn these things through instruction, and experience. you are currently getting experience what you need now is instruction

i can see what you are saying coz like i said the tyres are shocking in the wet so maybe its a combo of both (tyres and shocks). i still want to change the tyres but not sure if tyres or shocks first (cant do both at the same time coz im not made of money). can anyone recomend how i could test if its the tyres or the shocks?

as for the comment about my driving no harm taken. i stated exacly what i done as it might have been 100% wrong in my actions (i know i didnt react how i should have). but yeah also like i said im doing an advanced driving course in 2 weeks (got a gift certificate for my bday) so thats where the instruction will come hopefully

[salad]

I'm gonna say it was a combination of both, but I'm backing Beer Baron on this one as I know how shocking GT Champiros are.

You can just buy the shocks for now, you already have lowered springs that aren't heaps different to the Whiteline lowered springs. The Bilsteins will easily handle the small difference in spring rate.

[BHDave]

As bad as the champiros are (i had a set on the back of my gtst) they didn't cause this sort of problem in my car in the wet.

Yes, grip was non existant, but they didn't grip then suddenly let go in the wet, they just never had any significant grip from turn in to corner exit. When grandma driving they were fine.

Second problem with them is that my car did a fair job of tearing the tread blocks off on the dyno. The inner edge of both tyres were riddled with tears when i removed them recently.

[phunky_monkey]

I'd definately be saying it would be a combination of the two, as neither can work to it's fullest if the other isn't pulling it's weight.

It may be costly mate, but tyres are really important, so don't skimp!

[Black_Widow34]

I'm gonna say it was a combination of both, but I'm backing Beer Baron on this one as I know how shocking GT Champiros are.

You can just buy the shocks for now, you already have lowered springs that aren't heaps different to the Whiteline lowered springs. The Bilsteins will easily handle the small difference in spring rate.

yeah my next upgrade will definitly be the shock from SK.

As bad as the champiros are (i had a set on the back of my gtst) they didn't cause this sort of problem in my car in the wet.

Yes, grip was non existant, but they didn't grip then suddenly let go in the wet, they just never had any significant grip from turn in to corner exit. When grandma driving they were fine.

Second problem with them is that my car did a fair job of tearing the tread blocks off on the dyno. The inner edge of both tyres were riddled with tears when i removed them recently.

what car do you have and what sort of mods?

I'd definately be saying it would be a combination of the two, as neither can work to it's fullest if the other isn't pulling it's weight.

It may be costly mate, but tyres are really important, so don't skimp!

yeah i never skimp on tyres as i know they are the most important things on a car. i bought the car with them on and i didnt want to change them untill i change my stock rims to 18s since i though it be soon and the champiros have plenty of tread left. damn not enough money for everything!!! damn cars they run you out of money faster then a hot striper...

[jeffworld2]

my car has coilovers, but is lowered extensively on 17x9's. there is no grip in the wet, but superb cornering in the dry. if you check your rear camber, u will see why, mine is ridiculous. get some camber correction in the rear, then try again.

if your tyres have massive blocks they just wont move the water out, mine are like this and it is dangerous at any speed toi enter a roundabout in the wet. i try not to drive much in the wet unless i have too. if you ant wet grip, lose the blocks.