Ideal Power In A R32 Gtst Track Setup Car?

[CruiseLiner]

hey guys i currently have my rb27 in a stagea and im lookin to get into circuit work and maybe abit of drifting as well, so the plan is to rip the engine out of the stagea and into a r32 gtst or possibly a silvia/180sx.

the engine has a t04z and is approaching 600rwhp but its definately not a turbo i'd use on a track setup so im planning on downsizing for track duties only.

what sort of power is the max u can have to be suitable? im thinking a gt3040r (0.81 housing) on a jun 2.7L will be perfectly matched and capable of 450-480rwhp or is this still too much to handle with only 2wd? whats the ideal power range in this sort of setup? the car will be stripped to bare minimum and full roll cage etc. so around 1200kg im guessing.

do u think a rb in a silvia/180sx would make it too front heavy for this sort of racing?

any info on turbo selection/max power/car selection welcome

Edited March 4, 2007 by CruiseLiner

[Roy]

What are you wanting to do with the car? Are you going to actually race it in a series or just run it at track days.

My gut feel is a T04Z woudl be ok for the track on the 2.7L bottom end. As long as you have a 3,500rpm rev range of power you will be ok.

But being rwd it would be a easier to have more low end allowing you to use 3rd gear in 60km/corners rather then 2nd.

Also big question over what suspension and tyres will you be running?

[CruiseLiner]

What are you wanting to do with the car? Are you going to actually race it in a series or just run it at track days.

My gut feel is a T04Z woudl be ok for the track on the 2.7L bottom end. As long as you have a 3,500rpm rev range of power you will be ok.

But being rwd it would be a easier to have more low end allowing you to use 3rd gear in 60km/corners rather then 2nd.

Also big question over what suspension and tyres will you be running?

Hey Roy its more a track day car not really interested in series racing events (not yet anyway lol). im thinking motorkanas, and track days (barbegallo raceway) mainly, occasional drift if i happen to enjoy it.

my thoughts on the t04z is its abit too hard hitting when coming onto boost, as in if i come onto boost mid corner its gonna throw me off the road its soo agressive. the t04z has great power from 4300rpm or so until 8500rpm limiter. i'd expect a 3040r or so to be alot more gradual and easier to control when boost comes on.

suspension and tyres have not had alot of thought as yet but definately some race rubber (not sure on good and bad brands) and suspension would be one of the better brand setups as well.

what are some good suspension setups for this work and how much are they roughly?

i havent been involved with circuit racing as u can probably tell, mainly been a drag racing person but circuit looks alot more fun and more driver involvement rather than throwing more $$ on engine mods like drags is all about.

Edited March 4, 2007 by CruiseLiner

[Roy]

Suspension is very budget related. And you have to be careful not to spend too much as you can spend $3500 total on suspension, arms, bushes, swaybars etc and have a nice handlign car. You can spend 8k to be 0.5seconds quicker...not worth it in my eyes.

If you are wanting to do motorkhanas then i would say the 3040 is still too big. A 3037/3076R is what im looking at using.

As for the transition onto boost....you dont want to be driving the thing onto boost. You want to be always usign an rpm where you have boost. That helps in a big way. If you are in the position where you have to drive through being off boost onto boost then there is always throttle control....or get your tuner to soften the hit of power.

If you want an all rounder stick with 300-330rwkws. If you dont really care too much about motorkhanas...just want a play then go crazy. Like i said if i had the money and know how i would run a T04Z on my car,. I just dont have the money to throw that much rim/tyre/suspension and smarts to get a 400rwkws track car to work right

[ferni]

approching 300rwkw in rwd is pushing it I think, but then again i haven't driven a 300rwkw rwd car....

Circuit sprints you could probably get away with your power range between 4300-8500rpm, thats over 4000rpm in your powerband which is usually enough... but motokana you may want something a bit more responsive....

[phunky_monkey]

As Troy has said you really should never be coming onto boost on the track, as you should already be in your powerband when exiting a corner, and it seems like your powerband is quite good. (More than mine and I never fall off boost, just have to use a lower gear than I'd like at tracks like Winton on some of the corners)

May be a bit laggy for motorkhanas. Mine is a bit frustrating on a skidpan and I make full boost in much the same range as you do. If you put a 4.44 LSD into it you may be ok, but it's still manageable if you don't mind kicking the clutch a lot. Either way it's fun

[Roy]

approching 300rwkw in rwd is pushing it I think, but then again i haven't driven a 300rwkw rwd car....

When does your car come on with the GT-SS turbos?

I dont think 300rwkw is a problem ina rwd car. Sure you will have to show some grey matter when getting the thing into and out of corners and jumping on the loud pedal. But to me thats the appeal, getting good drive out of a corner and onto the straight feels great when you get it right. Just a bit of a wobble on exit and great drive as you feed in the power. You are driving the car.

Its funny when you see foot cam on the BMI vids and they are just jumping on the go pedal in 600hp GTRs. Sure its impressive that the thing hook sup...but thats a circuit board driving the car. Not the tool behind the wheel. Just like in F1 since traction control has come into it. Part of the appeal is learning the craft of punting a car quickly.

So sure 300rwkw is enough to overpower the rear tyres if you jump on the power too quickly on exit...but i dont think its so much that if you drive the car properly its too much to get a handle on.

My new setup will be aiming for 310-330rwkws. I think with 17" semis and my new diff and power from 3,800rpm it should make for a great track package. I know if i could afford the better gear i would love to grab 380-400rwkws and then work out how to get traction.

You can never have too much power, just not enough traction....for what its worth the Grp A RB20s made 300rwks in qualy/sprint trim. So with lates 80s slick technology, turbo technology and pretty ordinary rear suspension they were not spinning tyres like S13 drivers claim to do in 3rd and 4th gear with only 170rwkws.

Will see how much power the RB20 is making for PI and throw a camera in the car. Im curious to see the difference the diff makes to my car. Ima bit worried i will need to change the swaybar settings as im expecting the diff to make the car want to oversteer more...which sux as i had finally got a nice handlign package together for Dutton last year.

[CruiseLiner]

awesome input guys, great to get some advice from people with experience

now im lookin at buying a chassis to go with and workin out what is needed etc to get it reliable and setup correctly.

heres my current list...

r32 gtst stripped totally except engine/box/tailshaft diff and suspension

add a fuel cell and move battery to the boot

use my rb27, big intercooler, oil cooler, ecu, clutch, etc

get a rb25 5 speed box, use my fuel system from stagea with surge tank

ill put some swaybars and all new bushes all round

good quality race seat and harness

upgrade brakes to something better (i suppose r33 brembos wont really be good enough or will they with the stripped out 1200kg weight?)

decent rims and rubber

ill more than likely go with the 3040r 0.82 for power/response compromise

will a bolt in rollcage add much structural support for better handling?

will i need a better radiator than the gtst unit?

suspension, are the jap brand coilovers good enough or should i be lookin for better quality gear?

are adjustable arms needed to setup camber, etc?

any major things i am forgeting?

this is a fairly budget sort of setup dont forget, im hoping to get out of this for under 20k when its complete (ive got the motor, turbo, cooler, ecu, etc already).

possible or am i pushing it? all labour is free as im doing all the work myself too.

[JAGR33]

For 20k buy Roy's car, then you have your monster stagea and r32gtst track car... Best of both worlds....

[CruiseLiner]

For 20k buy Roy's car, then you have your monster stagea and r32gtst track car... Best of both worlds....

but building it is half the fun

[JAGR33]

I'd say what you are doing is a good idea, budget track car..

That way if you put into a wall, you don't feel as bad...

[Roy]

LOL...i have my EVO II R32 GTSt all set on paper. Just need the house first with a garage before i can commit to buying a race rego R32...so likely still 2-3 years away

But, a semi sensible budget R32 GTSt track car less engine and driveline as you seem to have a good handle on that.

Rims - 17 x 9.5 +38 rears with 17x8.5 +32 fronts.

Suspension - I think some Bilsteins with some spring rates to suit. If you speak to a Bilstein dealer they can supply them with adjustable spring seats meaning they are fully height adjustable so you can corner weigh the car with fluids and driver in the car. And also allows you to freely and cheaply try spring to suit your liking.

Some feel the bushes work fine...but i wouldnt bother running them in the front end, They get shagged far too quick. They are a good option in the rear end though to ensure that when lowered the car has the right amounts of camber etc. In the front im about to trial the Noltec arms which im confident are going to be a better option then the bush opton. Next will then be some Cuso castor rods which with my adjustable swaybars will be fine and all i need for a tight, good handlign R32.

Brakes, i would say that an R33 GTR Brembo front and rear setup would be fine. Especially with the weight removed from the car. Perhaps look at the 2pce Project U rotors for less weight and improved cooling. As cool as 355mm + 6 pot caliper setups are, they weight a lot and cost a lot, and on a light R32 you probably wont need them.

Cooling, im still running the std radiator but with the power im making it only takes 3 laps before i start to worry about coolant temps. So a good radiator with electric thermos with shroud off an EL Falcon, with a proper ducted bar should be fine. Personally im working on a new oil cooler setup that will see me with 38 rows of cooling so hopefully i can stay out there for plenty of laps with good oil temps. (One day i will buy a better radiator...but until then im working on oil temps)

The fun is in building....i figure i will need about 18k to get my track R32 up to speed, using a std RB20 to make 250rwkws with a 2835. At that power i feel the std RB20 gearbox will still be ok so less weight again. But with your turbo setup its bound to be an animal. The secret will be to get the thing to weigh in the 1100kg range somewhere

I so wish i had the house/garage at the moment and spare cash to be playing with a track car. I think what you have planned will surprise lots of ppl for the money spent. Thats only an opinion though as im still waiting to see a properly modded GTSt on the track so cant be sure how quick they can actually be.

[CruiseLiner]

thanks Roy, great details mate.

does anyone know any r32 gtst's that are fully stripped with only bare essentials and how much they weigh?

factory is 1260kg from memory? surely getting in the mid 1100's would be a breeze, except maybe the addition of a rollcage would add abit on that so still in the high 1100s i'd assume?

[webber]

I have an non registerable R33 GTST i am building up slowly, It is important to set some goals, have a direction where you want the car to be. I go to Winton every now and then (weather permitting generally) and i would like to get into the 1:30's first time i took the car over there it had the trademark miss that they tend to get and i couldn't give it much stick. Was running Bosch 040, front mount & std boost, i think that day i was in the high 1:4x's. (Havent ran since rectifying problem, only on dirt autocross tracks).

Since then i have brought a GT35-40R (xr6t spec) and some S15 injectors, Greddy Plenumn (so i can get to those pesky coils & spark plugs) Trying to find another Pfc for it, and a Z32 Airflow meter, i am going to aim for a conservative 240rwkw combined with some stickey Hoosier Radials, and a koyo 50mm radiator i got off e-bay for under $200 almost new, gates racing hoses & nismo 62* thermostat.

most the Cooling is in place just need to get an oil cooler. In my opinion i think that the cooling is very important and i want to take care of all the cooling system first, Then look at modifying the lower control arms and rose jointing (pillow blocking) where they bolt to the sub frame to give camber adjustment, and the same with the radius rod for caster.

(i already have tein HA (although i think they are a bit hard they do a decent job)

Once that is sorted and i am happy with my tyre wear and handling (combination of both) i will add on the performance mods and get it tuned to my goal power hopefully i will be able to utilise the set-up to reach my time goal.

I plan to hit that by the end of this year, i am in no rush. and i think to be an affordable project you have to pay as you go. Don't get into any debt for the sake of a track car.

just my 2c worth

[johnGTS-t]

Im running a fairly standard R32 Gts down here in tassie. Im about 2 sec a lap off the fast cars (in my class) at Baskerville. 63.2 is my best. got to get down to the mid 61's to be at the front.

My mods are

pod filter

fmic (only just fitted)

front camber/rear camber arms

caster rods

3'' open exhuast, side exit

rda slotted rotors

ferodo pads

strut bar

bridgestone re55 205/55/16 wheels 16 x 7 1/2

kings lowered springs

removed the air cond radiator to get more air to the radiator. we overheated at the last meeting, mainly cauase i was following too close and forgot about to get some cool air out of the draft.

Edited March 10, 2007 by johnGTS-t

[fr0st]

Thread revival time!

I was going to start a new thread but this one already has some good info (and I don't think cruiseliner will mind... )

I've started on my RB30DET build and I'm still a bit unsure of what kind of power goal I should be looking at. My R32 isn't a dedicated track car so no cages or interior stripping, it's basically just for fun and some autocross/track days.

300rwkw is the goal I've set myself so far but is it going to be practical?

It would be quite easy to go higher but if all I'm going to get is wheel spin there would be no point. Since the whole idea of the RB30 is to get a high average power, should I be aiming for a 'lag free' 260rwkw or go for higher power (350rwkw?) and a narrower, but still usable, power band?

For the sake of the argument, the car would have the whiteline package (including sway bars and new bushes all round) and 16 inch semi's.

I think SK used to run a R32 GTS-T with a RB31DET with the same package, I even saw mention of 420rwkw in my searches. I'd love to know the traction problems he's had if he feels like imparting some wisdom

[Sydneykid]

Thread revival time!

I was going to start a new thread but this one already has some good info (and I don't think cruiseliner will mind... )

I've started on my RB30DET build and I'm still a bit unsure of what kind of power goal I should be looking at. My R32 isn't a dedicated track car so no cages or interior stripping, it's basically just for fun and some autocross/track days.

300rwkw is the goal I've set myself so far but is it going to be practical?

It would be quite easy to go higher but if all I'm going to get is wheel spin there would be no point. Since the whole idea of the RB30 is to get a high average power, should I be aiming for a 'lag free' 260rwkw or go for higher power (350rwkw?) and a narrower, but still usable, power band?

For the sake of the argument, the car would have the whiteline package (including sway bars and new bushes all round) and 16 inch semi's.

I think SK used to run a R32 GTS-T with a RB31DET with the same package, I even saw mention of 420rwkw in my searches. I'd love to know the traction problems he's had if he feels like imparting some wisdom

The R32GTST has had 3 engines, the RB20DET at 225 rwkw, the RB30DET at 350 rwkw and it is now getting an RB31DET and the target is 420 rwkw. I could drive Oran Park with the RB20DET at around 70% of the time at full throttle, the RB30DET was around 60%.

So I figured, for the RB31DET, I had better up the stakes in the handling department. So it now has a 6 point roll cage, replacement rear subframe bushes and the rear subframe alignment kit is now set at "maximum traction" (previously "all round" setting). I have also moved a bit more weight towards the rear, battery, power steering reservoir and cooler, surge tank, external pump etc. To compensate for the extra weight of the RB31DET and its larger intercooler (600 x 300 x 100), heavier turbo and pipework, I have replaced the gauges with a Pi Dash and data logger, used carbon fibre wherever I can (inc mirrors) and replaced the stainless exhaust with titanium.

Traction is only a problem when accelerating from a lower speed. To compensate for the extra power, I have increased the cornering speed (I hope) therebye reducing the propensity for wheelspin. Reducing the weight to accelerate also helps.

Lastly, I have specifically built the engine and selected the compontents (particularly the turbo) to have a progressive power curve. So it doesn't suddenly jump on the boost and make throttle control difficult. Then its matter of tuning it accordingly. Maximum power is no indication of driveability, I fully expect the 420 rwkw RB31DET to have far superior throttle control than the 350 rwkw RB30DET.

cheers

[Roy]

I said i would throw a camera in for Phillip Island and here is the footage

I honestly dont know what boost i was running. So the power could be anywhere between 230-260rwkws. Either way you can see that power down traction isnt a problem. At the moment though im having some chassis balance problems which are making it a handful mid corner.

LOL. with having to re-do the suspesnion at the moment im thinking of binning the 26 and going 30 with a GT35R????

[fr0st]

SK, I get your point about having a progressive throttle response, which makes complete sense when you think about it. Kind of makes me wonder why I didn't put more thought into it before

Question is now, what do you do to get a more progressive throttle response?

I guess it mainly comes down to the turbo and tuning. I'm guessing its better to go on the smaller side for turbine housings?

Nice footage Roy, I've watched it about 10 times now

Go the 26/30

[Bunta]

Brakes, i would say that an R33 GTR Brembo front and rear setup would be fine. Especially with the weight removed from the car. Perhaps look at the 2pce Project U rotors for less weight and improved cooling. As cool as 355mm + 6 pot caliper setups are, they weight a lot and cost a lot, and on a light R32 you probably wont need them.

I run R33 GTR Brembos on my R32 GTST and you are right Roy, with DBA500 rotors it stops realy really well