Diff Diferances Na-turbo

[unarmed_skyline]

OK i know that the non-turbo r33 diffs are smaller and cant handle as much power as its turbo counter part

but i was wondering whats the ratios of the two, will the na accelarate a quicker as it doesnt have a turbo the could have set up the diff to make it a little quicker, and are they a direct swap if you wanted to could you just use the internals or would you have to repalce the other case too???

[342Four]

i don't know if the na diffs are physically smaller, i think it is just that the turbo has different ratios to the na version

[unarmed_skyline]

ohh ok, i got told ages ago they were physically smaller i couldnt really see why it would be easier for nissan to just make one size outer case then swap the internal

[CEF11E]

I have an R32 skyline that was non turbo and came with an R200 open wheeler. I bought a centre and halfshafts from an s14 (same as R33) and bolted it in. no modifications required.

I used my original crown wheel and pinion to keep the same diff ratios. the NA r32 has 4.3:1 and the centre i bought had a 4.11:1 and the last thing you need with a big turbo RB20 is longer gears = more lag . 4.3 was the shortest ratio i could find so i stuck with that..

The housings are the same just single spinner insted of LSD.

[Cubes]

CEF11E,

Did you have the back lash etc all setup or did you jack wack it in and hope for the best?

If so who did you get to setup the backlash and how much?

[Eug]

has anyone had any experience in swapping to a 1 way to 1.5 way aftermarket diff (usually for turbo) in a non turbo?

have driven a mate's r33 gtst with a cusco 1way and i reckon it's very very cool. the rear end feels predictable and solid, and ready to step out at whim.

into an r33 gts25... i can see it being sweet - but, another mate reckons it'll be useless unless i'm breaking traction and that it's just a waste of money.

my car is setup for tight circuits/hill climbs/mountains and motorkhanas. it's got turbo brakes, slotted rotors, braided lines, swaybars, locked hicas, pineapples, castor bushes, camber bushes, strutbraces, and sydneykid's bilstein/whiteline package.

already the rear end is solid and very throwable with 255s, but i'd to know if anyone has done this and if it's a worthwhile mod. the current LSD is still holding up - and may be on its way out, as it open wheels very very rarely.

want to see anyone else's thoughts:

- what did you get 1-way? 1.5-way? 2-way?

- which brand did you get? kaaz? nismo? cusco?

- was it worth it?

- what improvements in driveability?

- what was your application?

- would you recommend it?

- was driveability like in a gtst?

[342Four]

ive got a hot4's tech handbook in front of me (from an issue not that long ago) and there is a section on diffs in there

A one way diff will work exactly like the name implies - only one way, and will offer full diff lock under full power acceleration and will revert to a open-wheeler on de-acceleration or lift off

the beauty of a one way diff that it offers the easiest turn-in characteristics of any LSD, being completely unlocked and open on the way into a corner and not trying to push the nose of the car into any crazy under steering attitude

on a rear wheel drive application, the one way makes for an excellent beginner's diff, but still doesn't have what it takes to work properly as a full blown "drift diff"

A one point five way (1.5) is pretty much the same as a one way, but with some added functionality, the 1.5 way gives the more experienced driver a better chance of controling a sideways corner entry and then allowing full lock on the power down

It does this by allowing a slight amount of diff lock when the driver lifts the throttle, and there is a certain point in the diff action where the 1.5 way is virtually unlocked on the lightest of trailing throttles - it just has to be found and controlled by the driver to get the best result

as a mid level performer in both circuit and drift apps the 1.5 way LSD is and excellent option that has all the power down benefits of a locker, but without the savage understeer on corner entry

A two way lsd is the most demanding of all LSD configs to drive effectively, but on the flip sides it offers the best of rewards

as the name implies it works in both ways - and aggressively, and although the internal tension can be altered, the whole premise of the 2way diff is to provide as much lock on off throttle as it does on on throttle

the beauty is that you can go sideways as easily as stomping the peddle as it is by carrying too much speed up to a corner and stepping suddenly off the gas with a bit of steering angle

it takes a bit of getting used to, but can make all the difference to your on-track driving performance

having no driving xp with a LSD diff, i would, from what i have read, recommend a 1.5way LSD

not only does it allow full power locking, it also allows that little bit of lock on the lift off round the corner, allowing application of full power again down the straight without one wheel starting to spin free b4 the lock

as somebody who obviously uses the car alot for track work, and having xp a 1way already (thats what your current diff is essentially - specially if you have shimmed it up already - most manufacturers LSD are loose 1ways, with a not so aggressive locking slope, or in the case of the nissan diff, a viscous coupling that locks when torque exceeds a certain amount), a 1.5 way would be perfect

[Eug]

as cool as a 1.5 way is, i've been offered a good condition second hand nismo 1 way for a good price. i think the price alone negates the extra incentive for a 1.5 way.

interesting read ashley - it certainly re-enforces what i previously knew about differentials.

anyone else with any experience?

[unarmed_skyline]

i have read the same and similar articles, as far as a paper discription thats about as close as your going to get, we need to talk to some of the boys (or gals) out there that have dirven with different ratio diffs, probably wont be many in the na section but if you do a search in the turbo or handeling sectios it may have been covered before, as far as the question about having experience with lsd's in na's its all principle in the diff and would make no difference being turbo or non-turbo, cept thtat the turbos tend to be a bit more powerfull

[Cubes]

Go the 4.3 ratio if at all possible.

[Eug]

i have read the same and similar articles, as far as a paper discription thats about as close as your going to get, we need to talk to some of the boys (or gals) out there that have dirven with different ratio diffs, probably wont be many in the na section but if you do a search in the turbo or handeling sectios it may have been covered before, as far as the question about having experience with lsd's in na's its all principle in the diff and would make no difference being turbo or non-turbo, cept thtat the turbos tend to be a bit more powerfull

agreed... while i've driven many gtsts and my mate's who has a diff., i was wondering if the lack in power would make the 1/1.5 way diff. somewhat redundant, as it makes the rear end very solid and easily steps out when i want it. it's a little harder in the NA and requires a bit more commitment since i'm set up for traction.

Go the 4.3 ratio if at all possible.

you both raise good points with the diff ratios... i'm relatively new to the whole diff. thing (currently reading through some threads over the past few days). i do believe i can use my own crown and pinion to maintain my taller (4.3) ratio?

[unarmed_skyline]

isnt 4.3 whats in the standard non-turbos? whats the advantage it? does 4.3 accellarate quicker than a 4.11?

[Eug]

isnt 4.3 whats in the standard non-turbos? whats the advantage it? does 4.3 accellarate quicker than a 4.11?

yeap... the taller shorter ratio allows for quicker acceleration. basically most products are made for gtst - so all you'd require is to swap the crown & pinion i believe.

would it be feasible to go taller shorter again? i guess it'd make highway driving an issue 100km/hr @ ~4000rpm would definitely not be fun

[Cubes]

yeap... the taller ratio allows for quicker acceleration. basically most products are made for gtst - so all you'd require is to swap the crown & pinion i believe.

would it be feasible to go taller again? i guess it'd make highway driving an issue 100km/hr @ ~4000rpm would definitely not be fun

Taller/longer ratio = lower numerically, longer gears. i.e the old v8's running 2.72's etc

Shorter ratio = higher numerically, shorter quicker accelerating gears. Thats us.. 4.11's and 4.3's.

[Eug]

ahh yes, thanks for that pick up.

would 4.3 be the shortest you would go?

what are your experiences with after market diffs. and underpowered cars cubes? i've been following the re-shim thread - however the longevity doesn't take my fancy.

[342Four]

regarding shimming

i read another article in another HOT4's mag about how to shim your nissan viscous LSD (HOT4's issue 135 March 2006 page 183)

according to the article GT Autosound in Adelaide has done many reshims with many people using it solely for drift/track work and it has held up fine, no worries at all

if i were to do this, i think i first would reshim the diff fairly tight (using some thick shims - i read that how too aswell as i was going to type it up from the article, but somebody thankfully beat me too it ) and try and test that out while i get as many opinions as possible on LSD's and what would be the best

i think your best bet would be to try and pick somebodies brains - try GT Autosound for some info, they have done alot of work with nissans (that r34 LS1 TT drift car was built/sponsored by them)

and yes - they sound like an audio install company, and yes they are, but are now branching into car builds

there website ant anything too fancy, but do have contact details (www.gtautosound.com)

[Greg]

what is backlash and how is it adjusted?

[andylaurel]

backlash is the tolerance between the pinion and the crown gear.

eg if you have the diff sitting on a bench in front of you with the back cover off: and you were to hold the pinion input flange with your hand (or a vice), back lash is how much "play" the crown wheel assembly has.

you might wonder, why would you want any play in something that cops so much power.

the reason for a bit of back lash is:

1: Metal expands when it gets hot, and therefore if there is no backlash when cold, the gears would expand under heat conditions and seize up.

2: The stinky ass diff oil that you have put in is "Hypoid" which means it contains a special substance that resists the massive loads placed on the oil as it travels up the gears and lubricates the contact between the pinion and the crown. If you have no backlash when cold, and the gears expand with heat, the special hypoid diff oil will get squeezed out and it will result in metal on metal contact and a fast death.

[andylaurel]

backlash is adjusted in different ways for different diffs

toyota's have an excellent backlash adjustment mechanism in their diffs, using two large fine threaded caps either side of the diff centre to allow the whole crown/centre assembly to be moved side to side (and consequently, closer and farther away from the pinion, which is fixed)

Nissan R200's however, are strong as f**k diffs, but dont have good backlash adjustment (for the home diff rebuilder). They rely on big shims either side of the centre to locate the centre in the correct position. If you swap from a 4.11:1 to a 4.3:1 ratio and find your backlash is wrong, you will have to chop and change shims until you get it right.

[andylaurel]

for the record, a factory Nissan LSD can be re shimmed to be nearly locked. This works well for drifting so long as its not completely locked under zero torque input conditions, because in a transition from drifting left to drifting right, and visa versa, you need your diff to unlock for the briefest of moments to avoid mid transition understeer.

Welded and supershimmed LSD's can create this condition.

A 1.5 and 2 way diffs are great for sliding in to the corner Pre Apex and then locking tight on the way out for a big smoke show, but if you wanna go fast around a circuit you need a 1 way LSD.

A 1 way LSD will allow you to avoid excessive oversteer into the corner but prevent any roll related open wheeling post apex when you wanna put the power down and get out of the corner.

I know some guys like a a 1.5 way in the back of their GTR's for circuit work because the little bit of locking on the entry to the corner helps offset the understeer associated with 4wds.