Roll Cages - Myths And Fallacies

[dezz]

funny....not that long ago you were telling me how much more your car was worth when compared to my lowly piece of shit 33.....now your car is worth under 10k....

[JAGR33]

A Cefiro isnt a Silvia, So why should I go that way?

Jennifer Hawkins has the hots for me, that's my opinion....

The above statement is basically what your posts come across as, you work it out, if you can.....

[ferni]

Jennifer Hawkins has the hots for me, that's my opinion....

The above statement is basically what your posts come across as, you work it out, if you can.....

what would you know, you're just a truck driver

[R31Nismoid]

lol

[Al]

*takes a deep breathe*

Can you smell that??

[180athid]

bargalo race way 4th gear right hander before up hill s 160-180 i have respect for all motorsport but drag lets not turn this into a drift vs track battle leave that rivaly to the skaters and rollers

[Al]

It hasn't turned into a drift Vs track war. I love drift and respect it as a competative motorsport; if i had an ounce of drifting skill i would give it a go myself.

Just can't believable that Kym, in his $10K car, has entered and drifted a corner at 200km/h; that claim may be well recepted on NS.com, but in a SAU motorsport thread we all know he is telling some kiddy tales. Where as Jack has proven on many occations (via video footage and some awesome passenger laps) that his well set-up, big dollar, GTR is more than capable of turning a corner at 200km/h, or VERY close to.

It is one thing to claim something, another to prove it

Hell, i wounder if Adam Newton (Handbags) can add his view to this claim

[JAGR33]

bargalo race way 4th gear right hander before up hill s 160-180 i have respect for all motorsport but drag lets not turn this into a drift vs track battle leave that rivaly to the skaters and rollers

Totally agree, look at Starionturbo's post (#18) and you'll see how this thread went downhill from there....

[Roy]

bargalo race way 4th gear right hander before up hill s 160-180 i have respect for all motorsport but drag lets not turn this into a drift vs track battle leave that rivaly to the skaters and rollers

For the sake or the discussion. Is that actual road speed or wheel speed? If cars competing in the WA Dutton Rally arent getting those speeds in that section???

[Bass Junky]

Hey guys....

Can I make a point about something.

When I slide across the back of the Skid Pan at Deca I'm tapping the limiter in 2nd, bringing up about 110kph. When we tip into corners at high speeds, I can comfortably slide the tail, hold the angle and power out midway through third gear and be changing into 4th seconds after the corner, bringing up 150.

I'm an amateur driver/drifter who's never been to a drift event (but will soon, thanks Calder )but I can see 200kph corner entries as a definent possibility.

You are talking about two different disciplines of motor sport. Corner entry speed in Drift is very important, the higher it is, the more smoke you can blow on the way out.

I wouldn't discount the ability to enter a corner at 200kph in a drift car.

Track guys enter a corner at 180-200 and focus on grip and speed. Drifters enter a corner at 180-200 kph and focus on slide.

my $0.02c

[djr81]

My 10 cents.

The number of tracks in Australia with corners that anyone in something without wings & slicks can enter as 200km/h can be counted in the fingers of one hand.

Which is handy because far too many people are clearly using the other to spank themselves.

[Adz]

So,

Fact: Many jap cages are cams compliant both half and full for L2S events. Just ask DA as this rule has been tested a lot recently.

Fact: You can have a cage with side intrusion that is road legal provided it meets with vic roads specs.

Fact: Circuit racing at the present point is more dangerous than drifting.

Fact: Entering a corner at 180 - 200 drifting has a much higher chance of rollover than circuit driving.

Fact According to drift box/GPS I induced drift at turn 3 at QLD raceway at 187kmh and 208kmh at eastern creak in a 270kw car.

Fact: Entered turn one at Eastern creak grip racing at 220 in a 150 hp Clubman.

Fact: Ill shut up now.

My 2 cents

[djr81]

For the sake or the discussion. Is that actual road speed or wheel speed? If cars competing in the WA Dutton Rally arent getting those speeds in that section???

For the sake of the discussion the right hander follows the only left hand corner worth the name on the circuit. The left hander (Formerly Shell, now C-Red or X-force or something) is taken in 3rd (in a GT-R on R compounds) and you then turn right over the brow of the hill & hope the thing doesn't understeer too hard into the (unsighted) saw tooth kerbing on the exit. So yes, you can punch out of there at somewhere near 160. Which is massively different from 180. Which in turn is massively different from a car on road tyres or a drift car because at this point the thing is still pulling as many lateral gees as it can when the throttle is full open.

Maybe it is just me, but as I have never seen the drift people use the long track (which the corner is a part of) I fail to see what difference it makes.

Remember you need almost 25% more grip to take a corner at 200km/h as opposed to 180km/h. Finding 25% more grip by means other than bolting on stickier tyres & massive amounts of downforce is next to impossible.

[ctjet]

My 10 cents.

The number of tracks in Australia with corners that anyone in something without wings & slicks can enter as 200km/h can be counted in the fingers of one hand.

Which is handy because far too many people are clearly using the other to spank themselves.

LOL

[ferni]

Remember you need almost 25% more grip to take a corner at 200km/h as opposed to 180km/h. Finding 25% more grip by means other than bolting on stickier tyres & massive amounts of downforce is next to impossible.

That's interesting and i can relate, after PI the other week i was taking a sweeper at about 180k, then in the arvo was doing it about 200k... even though the difference was only 20k or 10% it felt like the car was pulling more lateral G's than just the 10% increase in speed.... that explains why i was so scared

[djr81]

Thats only because it does.

Basically lateral acceleration increase with the square of velocity. basically acceleration = velocity squared dvided by corner radius. So if you are doing, say 160km/h (44.4 metres per second) through Suzuka 140R you get:

Acceleration = 44.4 squared/140

Acceleration = 14.1metres per second squared

Acceleration = 1.438 gees.

Same sum for 161km/h gives 1.456 gees.

Finding 1.27% more grip is a MASSIVE gain in a race car.

Which is why you need to bust your arse to do even 1kmk/h quicker through a corner than the next bloke. By the way the reason you can tell people are spanking themselves when talking about silly cornering speed is as follows.

Say we are doing 1 minute laps of a 1 mile long circuit.

This means we are doing 60mph, obviously.

If we do 61 mph the lap time reduces to 59 seconds.

So if some nugget tells you of a heroic speed through a corner you may suggest, in the words of Dave Allen: "Stop it or you'll go blind."

[R31Nismoid]

So,

Fact: Many jap cages are cams compliant both half and full for L2S events. Just ask DA as this rule has been tested a lot recently.

Fact: You can have a cage with side intrusion that is road legal provided it meets with vic roads specs.

Fact: Circuit racing at the present point is more dangerous than drifting.

Fact: Entering a corner at 180 - 200 drifting has a much higher chance of rollover than circuit driving.

Fact According to drift box/GPS I induced drift at turn 3 at QLD raceway at 187kmh and 208kmh at eastern creak in a 270kw car.

Fact: Entered turn one at Eastern creak grip racing at 220 in a 150 hp Clubman.

Fact: Ill shut up now.

My 2 cents

FACT: You love long walks...

That's interesting and i can relate, after PI the other week i was taking a sweeper at about 180k, then in the arvo was doing it about 200k... even though the difference was only 20k or 10% it felt like the car was pulling more lateral G's than just the 10% increase in speed.... that explains why i was so scared

FACT: You need bigger balls

:laughing-smiley-014:

[dezz]

if the wheels on a drift car are spinning (wheelspin) around a corner, doesn't that increase the speed on the speedo..............?

[Adz]

if the wheels on a drift car are spinning (wheelspin) around a corner, doesn't that increase the speed on the speedo..............?

Yep. Thats why you need a drift box or gps data logger to really vind out you car speed while drifting.

[Roy]

So,

1/ Fact: Many jap cages are cams compliant both half and full for L2S events. Just ask DA as this rule has been tested a lot recently.

2/ Fact: You can have a cage with side intrusion that is road legal provided it meets with vic roads specs.

3/ Fact: Entering a corner at 180 - 200 drifting has a much higher chance of rollover than circuit driving.

4/ Fact According to drift box/GPS I induced drift at turn 3 at QLD raceway at 187kmh and 208kmh at eastern creak in a 270kw car.

LOL...fact is a strong word and really depends on application ..so i will say..

1/ Basically all cages are compliant for L2s events as you dont need them So provided the scrutineer feels they are installed in a safe manner then they are ok for L2S events. So the cages only comply because CAMS say you dont need one. So most the cages do not comply with CAMS/FIA requirements...but sionce they dont have to noone really cares. For the time being...as discussions have been had that if you have cage and using it at any event under CAMS insurance then they are thinking about making it mandatory to comply woith CAMS requirements. This will free the Scrutineer frm subjective decisions and make sure the car isnt full of spears that can hurt the driver in an accident.

So you are right...but kinda wrong with the wording

2/ Vic roads will go to great lengths to tell you that you dong need a cage for a road car...and you dont need a cage for L2S events. If you are going to run side intrusion bars then you have to be very careful that they do not limit/hinder access to the vehicle. You may end up running so low against the sill it won’t really help you a whole lot anyway. You are right, you can have them legal...but is very hard to come up with a good compromise. The best solution (a subjective opinion) is to have the side intrusion bars removable.

3/ Tend to agree. But again...its not the big picture. More track cars are doing those sorts of speeds then drift cars. So by weight of numbers and speeds circtuit cars are more likely to need good roll over protection. But given a drift car doing the same speeds sideways off the track an dinto the sand trap...yeh. Wont be pretty.

4/ Turn 1 at EC? Thats damn quick. Any idea what your actual corner speed is after you kick it out sideways and wash off speed? Irrespective, its one turn where ppl have got it majorly wrong over the years, and in fact is the corner where i have seen the most bent cars.

So not arguing, but reading your post make sit all sound pretty clear cut and would be easy to misinterpret...as its not so clear and easy to state facts