Which Coilovers Would You Choose?

[hrd-hr30]

for those of us who don't know all that much about shocks (me included) this article might help explain a few things:

http://www.wincom.net/trog/autocross_secrets6.html

actually the whole Autocross to Win article is well worth a read. Just remember that they're talking about lower speed events than race tracks with alot of rapid changes of direction.

[Sydneykid]

for those of us who don't know all that much about shocks (me included) this article might help explain a few things:

http://www.wincom.net/trog/autocross_secrets6.html

actually the whole Autocross to Win article is well worth a read. Just remember that they're talking about lower speed events than race tracks with alot of rapid changes of direction.

He has been working on that for some time, good to see it coming along. I like this phrase, although I have heard it before when refering to adjusting shocks during an event;

"It's like having a blind man adjust the focus on your camera"

cheers

[eron]

for those of us who don't know all that much about shocks (me included) this article might help explain a few things:

http://www.wincom.net/trog/autocross_secrets6.html

actually the whole Autocross to Win article is well worth a read. Just remember that they're talking about lower speed events than race tracks with alot of rapid changes of direction.

The other articles on that site are good too.

[JAGR33]

The problem with comparing lap times is that our cars are built to CAMS regulations, usually Improved Production which means a 36 mm restrictor for a single turbo and 2 x 27 mm restrictors for twin turbo. Effectively that means less than 400 bhp for a GTR. Plus a limit of 8” wide wheels and no lightweight panels. So a 1.06 at Wakefield won't sound that fast when compared to an "unlimited" power output GTR (or Z32). All we can do is continue to beat the opposition on the day.

I should also mention that races typically last 20 to 30 minutes, so we set the cars up to do the fastest 12 laps (or so). That’s a lot different to setting them up for one fast lap.

For 3 years my R32GTST ran a normal Group Buy kit, nothing “special” about it. I only corner weighted it once, and that was in the last year. Since it won’t be running Improved Production any more, we will see how fast it can go with no such limitations.

cheers

Actually, I was talking about YOUR car, isn't it an R32GTST with 220rwkw and YOUR Bilstein kit???? I may be incorrect but remember reading it in a previous post...

The car your talking about in the above post is a full race car (assuming slicks, correct me if I'm wrong) with Proflex shocks (huge $$$), cage etc.....correct me if I'm wrong again....

So I guess giant on these forums should be happy with his time when he did a 1:06 on a drying track on his first time there??? Mind you its a full weight N1 turboed car with Tein Super Streets (Aussie Spec) on R compound tyres... I guess 'Jap crap' suspension isn't bad after all...

[PSI_GTSII]

A brand name to brag to his mates, tick.

A nice shiny shock/spring unit for the bling, tick.

At my age i'd like to think I was a little past bragging to my mates about suspension brand names...!..?

And Bling is not what my car is about at all, everything I have done is there for a reason, and that reason is not to be the fastest around a track, it is to have a nice example of the marque and for it to be proficient / competitive at everything....on a budget

"It's like having a blind man adjust the focus on your camera"

True, If I was to fiddle with the shock and rebound myself then that would be exactly right, I will however not fiddle with it, I will have the suspension installed by a pro, I'll explain to him what I want from my vehicle, have him set it up to how they reckon and will probably never touch it again!

Heck I have now had 4 Vehicles with Aftermarket Management and handcontrollers in the cabin and have never messed with the tuners settings yet, why would I with the suspension....

Edited April 20, 2007 by PSI_GTSII

[dontfeelcold]

for those of us who don't know all that much about shocks (me included) this article might help explain a few things:

http://www.wincom.net/trog/autocross_secrets6.html

actually the whole Autocross to Win article is well worth a read. Just remember that they're talking about lower speed events than race tracks with alot of rapid changes of direction.

That was an interesting read. I was looking at the Koni Yellow's, but I am definetely going for the Bilsteins now.

[r33_racer]

giants car isnt completely full weight...

[Sydneykid]

Actually, I was talking about YOUR car, isn't it an R32GTST with 220rwkw and YOUR Bilstein kit???? I may be incorrect but remember reading it in a previous post...

The car your talking about in the above post is a full race car (assuming slicks, correct me if I'm wrong) with Proflex shocks (huge $$$), cage etc.....correct me if I'm wrong again....

So I guess giant on these forums should be happy with his time when he did a 1:06 on a drying track on his first time there??? Mind you its a full weight N1 turboed car with Tein Super Streets (Aussie Spec) on R compound tyres... I guess 'Jap crap' suspension isn't bad after all...

Improved Production runs on a control tyre, Yokohama A048R, not even the best of the "R" type tyres, some would argue the worst, especially in the medium/hard compound which we are required to run. I can go though the full CAMS regulations if you like, but the salient points are;

No lightweight panels, all have to be standard

8" wide wheels

2 x 27 mm turbo restrictors

No aftermarket suspension arms, all have to be standard, can swap rubber bushes for polyurethane

That’s the problem with looking at lap times for CAMS regulated cars and comparing them with “unlimited” cars that run at track days. My R32GTST was originally built to the same regulations (ie; Improved Production).

I don’t know the specifications of Giants car, but I my guess is that it has wider than 8” wheels, has more than 400 bhp, uses much better tyres and has aftermarket suspension arms. How close am I?

cheers

[r33_racer]

good article there harry.

I could have sworn SK had written that article. Looks exactly like his thoughts on suspension stuffs.

[Sydneykid]

good article there harry.

I could have sworn SK had written that article. Looks exactly like his thoughts on suspension stuffs.

Despite what some people believe, I am not the only person in the world who can read a shock dyno graph, tune the suspension on a car and figure out what actually works and what is just marketing spin.

cheers

[Roy]

I don’t know the specifications of Giants car, but I my guess is that it has wider than 8” wheels, has more than 400 bhp, uses much better tyres and has aftermarket suspension arms. How close am I?

cheers

Thinking about it Giants car is well sorted and nothing all that radical. Well, at least it wasnt the last time i saw it. It uses std R34 GTR rims, so are they 9" and he runs semi slicks. Thinking out loud the only area where it would clearly be better then the IP car is gearbox. But the fact that it is so quick at everything it does, low 10 qtr lime times, winning Dutton Rallys and quick at every track it visits. Well the suspension cant be a weak point. I think it did a 1:42 its first visit to EC as well, and that was with the Dutton Rally so i guess it would have only got 4 laps to get that time.

I dont care if my car uses leaf springs. The proof is in the times and for the life of me i cant bring myself to right off Japanese shocks when so many cars are doing brilliant things with them, including 1:15s at Sandown.

SK, will be interesting to see your RB30 GTSt back on the road. Your pics look as though you will be running a T04Z so for a change a GTSt will be making GTR power. Will you be sticking with Bilsteins in your GTSt or going for something a little more exotic? Based on my lil '20 im hoping my car will get close to some of the slow-mid spec Vic GTRs.

I hope PSI doesnt mind the running off in a tangent, but i have been told by several people now that anything that adjusts the valving of the shock isnt a great solution. I then asked so whats the difference between a mid level monotube shock like the HKS Hypermax II, Tein Monoflex and the Bilstein PSS9. Is there a real difference to how they change the compression/rebound between the Bilsteins and Mid-permium Jap shocks.

Ages ago when i enquired about PSS9 for my car the guy said its not a good option. For what i do a good handlign car is a good handling car and tyre pressures are enough to confuse the owners of most cars they build up. So those words have haunted me as he suggested its best to be changing the valving/spring combination as you go from track to track and you dont get the same adjustability out of tweakign the spring rate 5-10% and adjusted the shock externally with the adjustment

[T04GTR]

for those of us who don't know all that much about shocks (me included) this article might help explain a few things:

http://www.wincom.net/trog/autocross_secrets6.html

actually the whole Autocross to Win article is well worth a read. Just remember that they're talking about lower speed events than race tracks with alot of rapid changes of direction.

well im going to have my bilstiens done up ive decided.

seems the smarter thing to do. they bang and crash but still work lol. i only notice it over sharp bumps in the road where i feel the shocks gonna come thru the bonnet hehe

[JAGR33]

So far my R32GTST has never been bettered by another Skyline (of any model) at an SAU event.

Sydneykid, I was more interested in this car, curious to see what times it does to have never been beaten....

[Kaido_RR]

what so wrong with jap suspension coilovers? (apart from the price because if you look hard enough they are pretty well price)

[Sydneykid]

Thinking about it Giants car is well sorted and nothing all that radical. Well, at least it wasnt the last time i saw it. It uses std R34 GTR rims, so are they 9" and he runs semi slicks. Thinking out loud the only area where it would clearly be better then the IP car is gearbox. But the fact that it is so quick at everything it does, low 10 qtr lime times, winning Dutton Rallys and quick at every track it visits. Well the suspension cant be a weak point. I think it did a 1:42 its first visit to EC as well, and that was with the Dutton Rally so i guess it would have only got 4 laps to get that time.

I dont care if my car uses leaf springs. The proof is in the times and for the life of me i cant bring myself to right off Japanese shocks when so many cars are doing brilliant things with them, including 1:15s at Sandown.

SK, will be interesting to see your RB30 GTSt back on the road. Your pics look as though you will be running a T04Z so for a change a GTSt will be making GTR power. Will you be sticking with Bilsteins in your GTSt or going for something a little more exotic? Based on my lil '20 im hoping my car will get close to some of the slow-mid spec Vic GTRs.

I hope PSI doesnt mind the running off in a tangent, but i have been told by several people now that anything that adjusts the valving of the shock isnt a great solution. I then asked so whats the difference between a mid level monotube shock like the HKS Hypermax II, Tein Monoflex and the Bilstein PSS9. Is there a real difference to how they change the compression/rebound between the Bilsteins and Mid-permium Jap shocks.

Ages ago when i enquired about PSS9 for my car the guy said its not a good option. For what i do a good handlign car is a good handling car and tyre pressures are enough to confuse the owners of most cars they build up. So those words have haunted me as he suggested its best to be changing the valving/spring combination as you go from track to track and you dont get the same adjustability out of tweakign the spring rate 5-10% and adjusted the shock externally with the adjustment

Roy, you are not looking at them analytically enough;

They have similar, if not more power than a V8 Supercar

They are 4wd, not 2wd

They have similar, if not superior brakes to a V8 Supercar

A superior suspension layout (IRS, not live axle)

A superior differential action (not locked)

With similar weight

Having spent as much as a used V8 Supercar costs

The question you should be asking is, why aren't they doing V8 Supercar lap times?

A word of warning, don't get myopic about Sandown, it's two drag strips joined by wiggles. It's all about horsepower and brakes. Not a lot of handling required.

We have plenty of Improved Production cars in the race team, so I figured it was time to turn the R32GTST into a "track day" car and take on the guys who run without any regulations to limit them. It will still be basically IP legal, except no restrictor to limit the power.

Onto the shock absorber question. Whoever gave you the advice about adjustable shocks is absolutely spot on. At the beginning of each circuit race season I do training courses for the new guys (drivers and mechanics) in the various race teams that I consult for. I spend a whole day just going through the range of shock adjustments, teaching the drivers to feel for what the shock adjustments do. Teaching the mechanics to understand what the driver is telling them and then translating that into shock adjustments. That's mostly on Proflex or Ohlins double adjustable shocks, one bump adjuster (on the canister) and one rebound adjuster (on the shock top). Each car has a dedicated suspension mechanic, solely devoted to work with the same driver and car for the season. There is also a data engineer, a driveline mechanic, the engine tuner and 2 general mechanics. That's 6 technicians and 1 driver per car.

I wouldn’t even consider doing race weekend tuning like that on the F3 car, which has Dynamic dampers with 5 adjusters, 2 rebound and 3 bump. That is set up in the workshop the week before we go to the circuit. The only changes we make during a race weekend are aerodynamic, usually rear wing settings as a result of wind direction etc. That's why having been to a circuit before is so important, you hear race drivers and teams talk about it all the time, why? Because the history of set up data is all important, even in a 2 car, 20 technician team.

At a track day you are trying to do the job of those 7 people, do you really think that you can adjust shocks on the fly? That you have the time to concentrate on driving and do shock adjustments, let alone choose the right adjustments? I know I sure as hell don’t, even with 2 of us, we don’t adjust anything at track days, lap dashes and SuperSprints. We just get in and drive. If I am real lucky I might have enough time to change one stabiliser bar setting. Even that is a stretch.

I know it is boring, but the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) approach is the most appropriate. So a set of shock absorbers with a wide window (properly tuned damper curve) is the best answer.

Last bit, hooray did I hear you say? Your “mid price range” shock comparison. The PSS9 Bilstein kit for the R33/34 GTR was made at the specific request of the Japanese Bilstein agent. They believed that they were loosing sales simply because their Jap brand competition was offering damper adjustment. Not because the Bilstein B46 range was deficient in application, but simply because their opposition was successfully spinning the “adjustability” line. Based on my experience in an R33GTR and on the shock dyno, the PSS9 dampers are slightly more consistent in their adjustment than the Japanese brands. But, as with the Japanese brands, the adjustment is purely linear. So the advantage over the B46 range is not significant. This is reflected in the pricing, start with a B46, then add an Eibach coil spring, a strut top and a coil over conversion kit and you end up at almost the same cost as a PSS9.

We have had this discussion a number of times, but for other readers’ edification, I will repeat the advice. You will have to spend at least three times as much to get anything better than a B46 series Bilstein. Spend twice as much and you will end up with something worse. The first real step up in that price range is Proflex or the larger diameter DMS. They have a slight price advantage over the competition, plus they are available in the right configuration (ie; they bolt on) and, best of all, they are Australian and hence locally serviceable. Next step up is Ohlins, Penske or Dynamic which are more expensive and require fabrication to fit.

You are not going to be able to buy any of those brands from your local suspension shop. They are not that style of product. Go direct to the manufacture in the case of Proflex or DMS and the local agents in the case of Ohlins, Penske and Dynamic.

Enough from me.

cheers

[Roy]

Roy, you are not looking at them analytically enough;

They have similar, if not more power than a V8 Supercar

They are 4wd, not 2wd

They have similar, if not superior brakes to a V8 Supercar

A superior suspension layout (IRS, not live axle)

A superior differential action (not locked)

With similar weight

Having spent as much as a used V8 Supercar costs

The question you should be asking is, why aren't they doing V8 Supercar lap times?

A word of warning, don't get myopic about Sandown, it's two drag strips joined by wiggles. It's all about horsepower and brakes. Not a lot of handling required.

Again i agree. But the the biggest difference between the club cars and V8s is the drivers. I wouldnt expect a street car to go as quick simply because they dont have paid professionals driving. I use Sandown as an example as i feel its where a driver is far less disadvantaged compared to tracks like PI, where you get more an indication of just the car, not the car/driver package.

They are heavier, have less/tyres and grip but are 4wd. So ... i dont know. LOL give me 80k and i will report back from personal experience.

[JAGR33]

Roy, you are not looking at them analytically enough;

They have similar, if not more power than a V8 Supercar

They are 4wd, not 2wd

They have similar, if not superior brakes to a V8 Supercar

A superior suspension layout (IRS, not live axle)

A superior differential action (not locked)

With similar weight

Having spent as much as a used V8 Supercar costs

The question you should be asking is, why aren't they doing V8 Supercar lap times?

A word of warning, don't get myopic about Sandown, it's two drag strips joined by wiggles. It's all about horsepower and brakes. Not a lot of handling required.

Sydneykid, comparing a v8 supercar to a 'club sprint' car is not only wrong but vague, each car is built for different purposes, but lets keep the discusion going and be more 'realistic' in your above mentioned assumptions..

Now to be specific I'm assuming your comparison involves 'us' VIC guys with unlimited modified GTR's..

- 'They have similar, if not more power than a V8 supercar', the majority of our cars run 350rwkw (excluding Ben Racepace), not sure what that equates to flywheel power but a v8 supercar has 463kw at the flywheel. I'm sure our cars don't have more than 463kw at the fly..

- 'They are 4wd, not 2wd', yes this true..

- 'They have similar, if not superior brakes to a V8 Supercar', a 10k brake package (our cars, front and rear) is not superior to V8 supercar brakes in which calipers alone a worth 10k, just for the fronts!!!...

- 'With similar weight', umm no, V8 supercars are 1350kg, our cars are 1600kg, a major diference..

- 'Having spent as much as a used V8 Supercar', not sure where your going with this but as you would know, performance don't come cheap..

And how about some of the more important factors in which you may have accidently left out:

- Tyres, comparing R-compound tyres to full slicks

- Drivers, comparing a hack like me to a professional race car driver

In the above assumptions that I have outlined may contribute to why our cars are not as quick as V8 supercars, maybe a fairer example would be to compare a V8 supercar to a Gibson Motorsport R32GTR, although there is about 15 years difference in technology..

And finally about your comment reagarding Sandown, yes I agree its a horsepower track, but to say its not a handling track I think is a little far fetched.

To go very fast around Sandown (I'm talking sub 1:20's), there is a lot of ripple strip jumping, a suspension with short travel and the inability to absorb bumps at speed will throw the car off the track.... I'd be inclined to say that you'd need less suspension at PI than you would at Sandown, coz of how smooth PI is.. Correct me if I'm wrong...

P.S The above comments are not meant to slag or harm anyone, I aplogize in advance if I have...

[Roy]

My car is much happier at Sandown then it is PI. I run out of suspension real quick at PI, but at Sandown the soft suspension allows me to brake deep at turn 1 with all the bumps and hammer ripple strips. LOL...at PI i lift the slightest amount and my car gets lost mid corner with no stability PI needs a lot more spring just becuse of the corner speeds/Gs. Sandown needs good shock/spring setup so you can handle the bumps in braking areas and ripples strips. So different thats all.

As for weight, power, brakes etc of the quick Vic GTRs running Jap shocks. Yeh, more weight, less tyre and power, and dont have complex cages allowing you to run exotic shocks to exploit the tyre grip rather then your floppy chassis twisting up rather then stroking the shock/spring like a race car with a cage

...and your no hack Jag. You are my Dutton Co-Pilot (now is as good a time as any to tell you )

[padey]

I can only think of one way to solve this. SAU NSW Vs SAU Mexicans.

1 Track in Sydney, ie EC, 1 track in Melb ??? and one track between Syd-Melb, Wakefield/Winton.

Any maybe we should have categories to limit checkbook racing; 1) unlimited, 2) cars with some power limiting bits: standard fuel pump/injectors ......

Winner takes all

[Roy]

LOL, already done that last year. But we had more cars from Vic in attendance then from NSW