Nitrous going on.

[Merli]

I shall ignore your son from hereon in. Please urge him to register his own account before he taints your name further.

Originally posted by Sydneykid

OK merli, I used 6,000 rpm as an example, so squirt it at 3,000 rpm, that means it's only good for 20 revolutions out of the 1,200.  That's even more "temporary".

If my numbers are wrong, then tell me yours.   I am here to learn like everyone else, help me out.

I don't seem to understand your calculations. You're not just pressing the button for 0.4 seconds... you're acutally holding it down for the length of the run.

Okay. Lets start from the beginning. Your nitrous is usually armed via two or three switches. The first primary arm is the big aircraft-missile switch that seems to be so popular. The secondary arm is either a microswitch on the throttle that activates on WOT, a button on the steering wheel, or an aux output from your ECU's TPS on WOT. All arming switches must be activated for nitrous

to squirt.

Assume you have a microswitch on your throttle for this explanation.

So you launch your car. With a proper launch, you shouldn't ever drop below 3000rpm, agreed? So lets assume that you launch at about 4000rpm, and it drops to 3000rpm... by the time it gets back upto 4000rpm, you have the clutch completely engaged and the foot mashes the accelerator against the firewall. This engages the nitrous. It's not for 0.4 seconds, it's from 4000rpm to 8000rpm, then a pause when you lose ALL power as you change gears (doesn't matter if you're making 500hp without nitrous, you're not using ANY of it during gear changes), then as soon as you get into 2nd gear, you mash the throttle, again activating the nitrous from say 5500rpm to 8000rpm.

Repeat for the length of the run.

So as you can hopefully see from that illustration, you're actually using nitrous for the whole run, bar the first 30 feet whilst you're still slipping the clutch and not flooring the car and subsequently activating the nitrous.

Could you please explain the 40 revolutions out of 1200 to me? I honestly have no idea where that is calculated from... It seems to only make sense if you're assuming 0.4 seconds of activation which is completely false.

Andrew.

[rev210]

thats why they add the sulfur compound to automotive nitrous, and why I pay twice as much to get the bottle filled with the right stuff ,aside from the correct install to begin with and the fact that I reserve it's use for the strip.

[EnricoPalazzo]

FFS People. Its called Nitrous Oxide not NOS. NOS is a brand name, Nitrous Oxide System.

[Sydneykid]

***

CORRECTED

And NOS is derived from its Chemical name in symbols

NO5

***

SORRY, it is N20, and stand corrected..

S of S

[Sydneykid]

OK Rev, straight from your quoted site.......

Is it legal?

In Queensland and Western Australia it is illegal to fit a Nitrous

Kit to a registered street vehicle, we are still negiotiating with these states.

In all the other states the law states: "a road registered vehicle fitted with nitrous oxide must have the system modified so that the bottle is properly secured in the brackets provided and isolated from the engine (disconnect the main braided line

from the bottle), and the supply line to the engine is physically blocked off with an approved A-1 Performance disarming kit (a disarming kit is included in every OZNOS Kit, so that the joiner tubes from the solenoids to the injection point may be removed) whilst the vehicle is being street driven."

Lets check, yep that's what I said "driving around with an armed bottle of NOS in the car was illegal in almost every country"

[Sydneykid]

I need something clarified... I'm a dumb kid

Originally posted by Merli

Who the hell squirts nitrous at 6000rpm? It is recommended to be activated at 3000rpm, or lower for internally strengthened engines (stronger rods). That 40 revolutions bullshit is the weakest load of bullshit I have ever heard spouted as argument against nitrous EVER. Thanks for making me sit at my computer staring in bewilderment that someone actually wrote and believed that rubbish.

yeah, ok...

So you launch your car. With a proper launch, you shouldn't ever drop below 3000rpm, agreed? So lets assume that you launch at about 4000rpm, and it drops to 3000rpm... by the time it gets back upto 4000rpm, you have the clutch completely engaged and the foot mashes the accelerator against the firewall. This engages the nitrous. It's not for 0.4 seconds, it's from 4000rpm to 8000rpm, then a pause when you lose ALL power as you change gears (doesn't matter if you're making 500hp without nitrous, you're not using ANY of it during gear changes), then as soon as you get into 2nd gear, you mash the throttle, again activating the nitrous from say 5500rpm to 8000rpm.

well, car dependant, 6000rpm for hitting a shot of NO5 isn't far off, so ok... But hang on, you said it was recommended NO5 be activated at 3000rpm.... thats what it says above...

Not sure whats going on, but I'm really confused... one minute, don't activate at 6000, your an idiot, then its activate at 5500rpm....

Unless you want to tell me I'm stupid, THATS WHAT YOU SAID, please explain, I want to buy a Nitrous kit for my Integra, and dunno when to activate

Son of Sydneykid

[Sydneykid]

Thanks merli, couple of questions, can I spool up the turbo with a nitrous shot before I drop the clutch?

Since 60% of the energy produced can end up in the water and/or oil, what do I do if my engine can't take the heat loading from 12 seconds of NOS?

Could I reduce the HP of the Nitrous to a level that the engine can handle the heat?

Or could I keep the same HP and shorten the length of the shot, so that it only squirts for as long as the engine can handle the extra heat?

Which would be better, a 100 bhp shot for 12 seconds?

Or a 200 bhp shot for 6 seconds?

What about a 400 bhp shot for 3 seconds?

My understanding has been that Nitrous consumption is something like 1 kg for every 200 hp for every 10 seconds, is that right?

So for a night's racing of, say, 6 runs that's 4 kgs of nitrous, right?

What does 4 kg's of Rev's "automotive nitrous" cost ?

Thanks again for your help so far.

[BU5TER]

Sydneykid and Son of Sydneykid

This threads getting a bit like the Trust turbo thread where you stated

"now, stop talking about it

unless you own a Mitsubishi canter....."

I've noticed a bit of a pattern when people don't agree with you, you have to argue your point in a sarcastic way until the thread becomes a joke.

Maybe you should learn to agree to disagree with people, this way you will keep people's respect as after this thread and the td06 thread I think you're a joke and need to grow up

[Sydneykid]

Hey S of S, I told you the guys with Trust turbos wouldn't like the "Canter" reference. They are gunna use it against you for ever now.

[Merli]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

well, car dependant, 6000rpm for hitting a shot of NO5 isn't far off, so ok... But hang on, you said it was recommended NO5 be activated at 3000rpm.... thats what it says above...

Not sure whats going on, but I'm really confused... one minute, don't activate at 6000, your an idiot, then its activate at 5500rpm....

Unless you want to tell me I'm stupid, THATS WHAT YOU SAID, please explain, I want to buy a Nitrous kit for my Integra, and dunno when to activate

Son of Sydneykid

Firstly, the chemical formula for Nitrous Oxide is N20. Two atoms of Nitrogen, One atom of Oxygen. Not NO5.

Let me try and explain it again.

These are (an example of) your revs during a 1/4 mile pass:

1st gear: 4000rpm - 8000rpm

2nd gear: 5500rpm - 8000rpm

3rd gear: 5500rpm - 8000rpm

4th gear: 5500rpm - finish line.

I said 5500rpm, because when you change gears, revs don't drop back to 3000rpm, they only drop a bit, and I used 5500rpm as an example.

So from that example above, you're able to use nitrous throughout the ENTIRE RUN, just as you would with a non-nitroused engine, bar the initial launch, where you're not 100% wide open throttle.

[Sydneykid]

I know I'm here to learn, and I have no so much knowledge about skylines or forced induction... but when i learn firm points about turbos, i try to remember them..... The Trust thread was... fallable, due to someone being closed minded about only buying a trust turbo. The whole idea of my posts was to get someone, or more than one person thinking outside of a restricted box, and consider other/different/better options.. Not trying to offend or disagree with everyone.

Now with nos, i'm confused. Someone says one thing, another says another thing... la la la, i'm confused, i get attacked for it. I NEVER attacked anyone personally before they attacked me.. EVER. Now, Merli is attacking me personally, I get smacked down for attacking back...for nothing... he says i know nothing, has a whinge, inflates his ego, yet explains nothing. How can I learn of such ignorant posts.

CORRECTION

Has explained about gear changes and N20 activation. Just need to understand the recommended activation at 3000rpm

My personal experience with NO5 is that it is a load of crap. I only see its real "potential" or legitimate usage on the strip (or for crazy movies) for the purpose of spooling up the massive turbo... like a T88 or T51... so it remains on boost for the length of the run... now someone is saying you can use if for the full length, ok, never seen it on a road and track car... I would like to know the difference between one big hit at 5500 rpm or a long hit for 5500 to 8000rpm

S of S

PS, in a shitty mood due to a fight with the fish in the frying pan....

[rev210]

sydneykid,

Thanks for checking it out. I don't think we misunderstood each other about the 'armed' in your car part, just the illegal everywhere tone. Illegal to use on the street yes. But we all enjoy using it on the drag strip where its intended to be used and certainly sanctioned. Whether you can transport it around in your everyday car is the point most argued. And fair enough too.

I think you might like to look at the FAQ section of the site as well, re the amount of nitrous and the horsepower example you are exploring for instance.

Basically the engine in question will have a horsepower threshold, which if you exceed either by nitrous or large turbo bad things will happen. In the case of the nitrous it can be a better ecconomy of wear due to the revs being a fair bit lower for the same power, provided the engine in question can handle that power (turbo or otherwise) to begin with.

For someone like me who frequents the drag strip on the odd occasion nitrous oxide is the least expensive path to some lovely g-forces, without any of the cons attached with larger turbos.

At 50HP my 10lb bottle will give about 200seconds of use. Thats about 20 runs at $5 per run. At 100HP that makes it $10 per run.

If I do 20 passes in a year that means I've spent $200 in gas for each 100HP run, plus $400 for the kit. For 3 years of 1/4mile fun it costs me $1000.

OR

Turbo upgrade costs over $2k and I need an new ecu (say $1200 after I trade in my S-afc) and larger injectors and rail ($800) and a fmic $1500, maybe a new dump pipe. I still do 20 runs a year

In three years It cost me $5500 to do the same sort of times.

$5500 Vs $1000 over three years. OR put it this way :

$91 per 1/4 run or $16 per 1/4 run on nitrous.

Ah but wait you say what about driving on the street? Well I don't intend to do my speeding in the suburbs I save it for the proper track. For those who want to race through the suburbs I sugest that the stock turbo is more than enough to get you in trouble.

If you want a circuit-track racer, then nitrous is not up your alley so don't get it. Easy

[Merli]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Thanks merli, couple of questions, can I spool up the turbo with a nitrous shot before I drop the clutch?

You can't activate the nitrous whilst standing still... I believe the Croydon Wholesalers GTR in NZ accidentally did that whilst staging, and completely ripped their intake plenum in half Impressive.

Usually, with strong engines, you don't have an microswitch on the throttle, you'd have a button on the steering wheel, so you can activate the nitrous even if you're not WOT. This way, as soon as you start moving (launch), you can activate the nitrous and use it right from the get go.

Be warned though, nitrous oxide creates some FEARSOME in-cylinder pressures, and can be deadly for stock engines at low RPM... That is why it is only recommended to activate it above 3000rpm. But with built engines with uprated conrods, you can use it right from the start and spool up those big turbos!

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Since 60% of the energy produced can end up in the water and/or oil, what do I do if my engine can't take the heat loading from 12 seconds of NOS?

Could I reduce the HP of the Nitrous to a level that the engine can handle the heat?

Or could I keep the same HP and shorten the length of the shot, so that it only squirts for as long as the engine can handle the extra heat?

Which would be better, a 100 bhp shot for 12 seconds?

Or a 200 bhp shot for 6 seconds?

What about a 400 bhp shot for 3 seconds?

It's the extreme heat cycles that hurts the block and pistons. Whilst on nitrous, there are EXTREME in-cylinder pressues and heat... then when you get off the nitrous, it cools down, then you activate the nitrous again and you heat cycle the engine something horrid.

It's not that your engine can't take the heat, it would be that your pistons can't take it, and just melt. That's what happens if you use too high a hp shot... Solution? Reduce the size shot you use. Most stock engines will handle a 50hp shot without any worries whatsoever, even 4G93 1.8 Litre Mistubishi engines But if you try and put a 200hp shot on there, prepare to be lifting a fused block out of your engine bay

As for what's better, more hp for less time or less hp for longer, I quite honestly don't know. I would assume less hp for the entire duration of the run would be easier on the engine.

Originally posted by Sydneykid

My understanding has been that Nitrous consumption is something like 1 kg for every 200 hp for every 10 seconds, is that right?

So for a night's racing of, say, 6 runs that's 4 kgs of nitrous, right?

What does 4 kg's of Rev's "automotive nitrous" cost ?

Thanks again for your help so far.

Nitrous is usually measured in pounds, I'm not sure why. A common bottle that comes with kits is a 10lb bottle.

For a 200hp shot, you'd get maybe 3 or 4 passes out of a 10lb bottle which costs ~$80-90 to refill. This is assuming 10-12 second passes...

200hp is a LOT btw... The effect of nitrous is multiplied on a turbo engine because of it's cooling effect... Most RB26s use a 150hp (6x 25hp direct port jets)...

[rev210]

you use 1lb of nitrous for every 100HP per 10sec.

or 2lb / 200HP /10sec. etc..

[Cubes]

Nothing wrong with a heated discussion peoples..

Be a guest at a wogs house when there is a rely bash and you will see what heated discussion is all about

[Merli]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Has explained about gear changes and N20 activation. Just need to understand the recommended activation at 3000rpm

Okay...

Basically, when you inject nitrous into your engine, all it's doing is forcing a HUGE amount of air (and fuel) into the cylinder. What results is an INSTANT increase in the size of the explosion... What does that do? It forces the piston downwards like buggery, and stresses the conrod like you can't imagine. If you ever go into a car with nitrous, watch the rate that revs increase once nitrous is activated... It will rev through the rest of the rev range twice as quick (not scientific, just for illustration point) as it would if you didn't activate the nitrous.

So basically you're forcing the piston downwards with HUGE force, which the conrod has to withstand, since it's holding the piston up!

The reason why nitrous manufacturers recommend to only activate nitrous at revs above 3000rpm. This is because there is sufficient engine speeds for the piston and conrod to increase in speed without loading them up too much (because they have sufficient momentum), like you would if you tried to force that piston down when it's rotating at slow speeds (1000rpm)

When you uprate your conrods (and pistons), they're stronger and can take the abuse and forces of earlier nitrous activation..

Originally posted by Sydneykid

My personal experience with NO5 is that it is a load of crap. I only see its real "potential" or legitimate usage on the strip (or for crazy movies) for the purpose of spooling up the massive turbo... like a T88 or T51... so it remains on boost for the length of the run... now someone is saying you can use if for the full length, ok, never seen it on a road and track car... I would like to know the difference between one big hit at 5500 rpm or a long hit for 5500 to 8000rpm

S of S

PS, in a shitty mood due to a fight with the fish in the frying pan....

I would say that most cars utilising nitrous oxide use it for the entire duration of the run.

Only the very serious racers use a massive shot at low rpm to initially spool up their truck turbos... 99% of nitrous users don't do this because of the extreme stress that it puts on internals that I mentioned earlier, and opt for a smaller shot for the entire length of the pass.

[Belly_up]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Dam, I forgot to answer revs question.  The problem with NOS is that it is basically odourless, colour less and tasteless.  Unlike petrol, which is none of those, you could be inhaling it now and not even know it.  

LPG, as used in cars and bbq's, is also odourless, colourless and tasteless, when it is in it's natural state. The distinctive odour is added afterwards by the refineries for the same safety reasons you alluded to above. So there is no reason the same couldn't be done for nitrous, if that was the main safety concern.

I think the main reason that it is banned on the street, is that it's only possible use, is for drag racing, which is also illegal.

Personally i shudder at the thought of inexperienced drivers cruising the streets in their lowered excel's, with the ability to gain 100hp at the push of a button (through their stiff suspension and 185 tyres :eek:). Sure it might be ok in a straight line in the dry, but what about around corners, or in the rain, or both. I think N20 is too on/off in it's power delivery to be safe on the street, and if i was the authorities, i'd make it illegal too.

Belly_up

[Merli]

P.S. I completely agree with it being illegal on the streets. It's use is too narrow, and can be dangerous if activated whilst turning by an inexperienced driver.

I'm the first to say it has very limited uses. But that doesn't make it a bad thing, or cheating. Claiming that is seriously ridiculous.

[rev210]

The nature of the combustion, in heat and pressure is much the same as any horspower increase of the same magnitude. Be it can be made to occur at any given rev, very bad thing to do at idle

[Sydneykid]

Thaks merli that helped a lot, I'll digest (and drive home). But before I do, one more question.....

Last time I saw TRY09 do a run, they used a short shot of nitrous on the line just before launch. I asked Mick later and he said it was to spool up the turbo against the torque converter so it had boost before the launch. Or something like that.........

Does that sound logical?