Greatest F1 Driver Of All Time?

[Kozeyekan]

OK, so while watching the monaco GP, a mate and myself had the above argument. He claims that Schumacher's record speaks for itself, and that he's the best ever. I insulted his sexuality and made a counter claim that despite an inferior number of wins, Senna is the best of all time, as he did it in a period with such legendary racers. He did not agree.

Our points went something like this:

Senna:

Plus:

Awesome in the wet (a great equaliser)

pushed his cars to the limit.

Became Prosts #2 driver and beat him in the same car with less support, unlike Schumacher who has been the #1 driver and received maximum support for 10 years.

Beat Mansell, Hill, Prost, Alesi, Andretti several times

Had personality

Won the opening race of the new nurburgring circuit, where all drivers had similar cars (merc 190E's I think) and beat niki Lauda and other pro's in his rookie year.

Minus:

One crazy bastard.

Died on the track (though reasons still under debate.)

A loose cannon.

Schumacher:

Plus:

Beat Senna's records

dominated F1 for a long period.

er... not much else.

Minus:

Boring to watch.

Always in the dominant car.

Is a confirmed cross dresser (We had been drinking heavily be now, and referenced a time when I remember seeing him leave a womens loo on the TV)

only a small margin faster than times set by Senna 15 years earlier.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

If you were running an F1 team and could recruit two drivers from any point in time, who would they be, and who'd be #1 and #2?

For myself, I'd pick Senna at #1, and I'd put myself in #2, just so I could say I raced with him. I'd call my car "The spare part special"

[leb]

I have to say Senna is the legend of all time.

It's really hard to compare though as when the car changes, it is not easy to compare times.

Eg. If you look at schumi's records, they are from the later years where the cars are faster on the corners, so it is easier to set a lower time.

Senna had balls, schumi licks them instead?

[pablo101]

What about greatest partnership of all time?

This season it will be Hamilton/Alonso easy

[Targa Tom]

In my time.... Senna, G. Villeneuve, Montoya (floored genius), Mansell, Prost in that order Cars are about 85% of the F1 race and Senna won in some 5h1tters. Tell your gay M8 I reckon you're right

TT984

[NicsR33]

my dad named me after Niki Lauda so im gonna have to say him but between the 2 up there i would have to say Senna. Never been much of a fan of Schumacher. plus if both were alive and at their racing prime today Senna would dominate.

[Muz]

Senna, then Giles Villeneuve!

[AndyMac]

Schumacher and Senna where both extremely good. But, if you go through the records and do a mildly fair comparison, Schumacher comes out on top.

Races/Average Points, etc, etc, etc.

You can not say that Schumacher always had the best car. The F2001 and F2002 being the exceptions, the other years the Ferrari was not the dominant car. Look at the results of his team mates.

Senna on the other hand, had it (in my opinion) alot easier with the cars given him. Again, look at his teams mates results.

If you really really start getting into F1, try and find some videos, doucmentaries about Schumacher and why most people involved in F1 conceed that there is Schumacher, a gap to Senna, Brabham, Fangio, Hill, Stewart, Clark, Villienueve (G) and then a very big gap to the rest....

Try and find a you tube video of Schumacher at Silverstone testing with Johnny Herbet, they explain one of traits that Schumacher uses that 99% of the others don't. The bloke is the best we'll ever see - love him or hate him.

On the rain thing, Senna was good, but you only have to see the reaction of the paddock, commentators when it rained and Schumacher was around.... Schumi - RainMeister.

His Dad used too make him go to the local kart track at 8 years old when it rained, made him practice in the rain all the time.

[Necx0]

In terms of greatest ever professional drivers, Schumacher I believe is the greatest of all time. His work ethic and ability to bond his team to bring out the best in themselves is phenomenal.

However I prefer to rank on pure driving ability, Note this list is only from what I personally I have seen and stories/articles I have read, hence not much on Fangio/Clark/Moss etc. So here are my top drivers:

1. Senna, simply put the fastest driver ever. You say Schumi was good in the rain....I say one race Donington 1993. In one lap Senna proved his driving mastery may never be matched. Need further proof?? Monaco 1988, Out-qualfied PROST of all people by 1.5 seconds!!!

2. Gilles Villeneuve Perhaps the greatest car control of all time, one of the sport's greatest losses.

3. Alain Prost The Professor, simply stunning example of "Smooth is fast"

4. Niki Lauda One of my heroes and an amazing thinking driver

5. Jackie Stewart debated whether to swap him and Lauda....very similar approaches. Thinking drivers, yet both could display stunning speed when required

6. Michael Schumacher Despite what the records say, he is at number 6 because I believe all the drivers above would have out-driven Schumi in their respective primes. Some simply amazing driving from the german though

7. Nigel Mansell the overtaking master, search for him on YouTube and you will see why.

8. Mika Hakkinen the fact the Schumacher is here means Hakkinen has to be here, the only driver Schumi feared. Spa 2000 proved why

9. Kimi Raikkonen Fastest man in current F1 the current "Flying Finn"

10. Fernando Alonso unorthodox driving style shouldn't work.....but thanks to it he could maximise an F1 car. See Opening lap Hungary 2006 and his pass on Schumi at Suzuka 2005 has adapted his style to the current cars, the sign of a great driver. Could fall off this list if he doesn't deal with Hamilton

There are several others that should probably be on this list such as Jochen Rindt, Ronnie Petersen and of course Juan Manuel Fangio but I haven't seen enough footage of them drive to make an objective decision so there is my list!!

[Kozeyekan]

Schumacher and Senna where both extremely good. But, if you go through the records and do a mildly fair comparison, Schumacher comes out on top.

Races/Average Points, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, but my point is that Senna did it in a time when he was competing against Prost, Hill, Mansell, Alesi and people like that, and 88 in monaco made even a legend like Prost look second rate by qualifying a second and a half faster than him.

I'll agree that Schumachers record is very impressive, no doubt. He's definitely a quality driver, I just believe that Senna would always have an edge, and put them in the same car and let them loose on a track and you'd see an awesome dog fight, but Senna just has more of a "magic" touch. He did things that should never have worked and took risks others would not.

On paper, Schumacher is superior, but he's the very epitome of cold and clinical in his line and technique. He studies the track really well and rarely makes mistakes, whereas Senna was more of a natural talent, who drove with emotion and passion, making him a bit of a loose cannon, but let him do stuff that no one else could do.

Like lapping 5 cars in the opening lap in the wet as mentioned a few posts back.

If there's an F1 track in Heaven (And let's hope) As soon as Schumacher passes on, he'll go straight to Senna and ask him "How the hell did you do it?"

[`nigno]

In terms of greatest ever professional drivers, Schumacher I believe is the greatest of all time. His work ethic and ability to bond his team to bring out the best in themselves is phenomenal.

However I prefer to rank on pure driving ability, Note this list is only from what I personally I have seen and stories/articles I have read, hence not much on Fangio/Clark/Moss etc. So here are my top drivers:

1. Senna, simply put the fastest driver ever. You say Schumi was good in the rain....I say one race Donington 1993. In one lap Senna proved his driving mastery may never be matched. Need further proof?? Monaco 1988, Out-qualfied PROST of all people by 1.5 seconds!!!

2. Gilles Villeneuve Perhaps the greatest car control of all time, one of the sport's greatest losses.

3. Alain Prost The Professor, simply stunning example of "Smooth is fast"

4. Niki Lauda One of my heroes and an amazing thinking driver

5. Jackie Stewart debated whether to swap him and Lauda....very similar approaches. Thinking drivers, yet both could display stunning speed when required

6. Michael Schumacher Despite what the records say, he is at number 6 because I believe all the drivers above would have out-driven Schumi in their respective primes. Some simply amazing driving from the german though

7. Nigel Mansell the overtaking master, search for him on YouTube and you will see why.

8. Mika Hakkinen the fact the Schumacher is here means Hakkinen has to be here, the only driver Schumi feared. Spa 2000 proved why

9. Kimi Raikkonen Fastest man in current F1 the current "Flying Finn"

10. Fernando Alonso unorthodox driving style shouldn't work.....but thanks to it he could maximise an F1 car. See Opening lap Hungary 2006 and his pass on Schumi at Suzuka 2005 has adapted his style to the current cars, the sign of a great driver. Could fall off this list if he doesn't deal with Hamilton

There are several others that should probably be on this list such as Jochen Rindt, Ronnie Petersen and of course Juan Manuel Fangio but I haven't seen enough footage of them drive to make an objective decision so there is my list!!

100% agree with this, well summed up

[ctjet]

10. Fernando Alonso unorthodox driving style shouldn't work.....but thanks to it he could maximise an F1 car

Thats acctually somewhat wrong... Alonso's driving style at Renault seemed to have been a byproduct of the R26/27 chassis set up and rear biased balance. Also the way that Renault had set up their traction control system allowed Alonso to throw the car into corners with horrible understeer and get away with it. He adapted his driving style that best suited the car and reaped the rewards.

Now that he's at Mclaren he seems to have adopted a more traditional driving style, with more oversteer than anything now, which is quite an achievement since its such a dastic change from his previous (and successful) style. The guy really is mega by todays standards, he's smart, uncluttered and beaten the best. Like it or not he will be one of the greats

[`nigno]

Thats acctually somewhat wrong... Alonso's driving style at Renault seemed to have been a byproduct of the R26/27 chassis set up and rear biased balance. Also the way that Renault had set up their traction control system allowed Alonso to throw the car into corners with horrible understeer and get away with it. He adapted his driving style that best suited the car and reaped the rewards.

Now that he's at Mclaren he seems to have adopted a more traditional driving style, with more oversteer than anything now, which is quite an achievement since its such a dastic change from his previous (and successful) style. The guy really is mega by todays standards, he's smart, uncluttered and beaten the best. Like it or not he will be one of the greats

Whether it was a bi-product of the way his car was designed and setup there is no disputing his style was unorthodox yet effective. I agree the guy is one of the most exciting people to watch in modern motorsport and will undoubtedly be ranked along side the greats by the end of his career. No other driver is as exciting to watch in my opinion, the only other person in motorsport that can put me on the edge of my seat like Alonso is Valentino Rossi when he is backing it in to fast corners in the wet during passing manouvres *drool* but im biased being italian ahahha and prior to that it was Senna. Im sticking with the list posted above, but I know what you're saying.

[ctjet]

Im going out on a limb and saying that Alonso is better than Mika... that coming from a 16-17 year long Mclaren fan is saying something.

Edited June 9, 2007 by ctjet

[`nigno]

Im going out on a limb and saying that Alonso is better than Mika... that coming from a 16-17 year long Mclaren fan is saying something.

If he can adjust and continue to perform, ill jump on that bandwagon with you

[eMsta]

ayrton def was the best - no doubt about that. He just had his life cut short thats all..... RIP

[Necx0]

Im going out on a limb and saying that Alonso is better than Mika... that coming from a 16-17 year long Mclaren fan is saying something.

Actually what you said is exactly what I meant haha I agree that he found a way of driving that suited the Renault. I reserved judgement on Alonso while he was at Renault due to the unorthodox style. The test was going to be when he switched to new tyres in a new car. In any other car than the Renault that style just wouldn't have worked. As soon as I saw in-car footage from Australia I knew he was bloody good. Totally changed his style, although he still turns in a lot faster than most. I also agree he is the most complete of the current drivers.

However the aggressive turn in is still his natural style, watch him in the Megane around the 'Ring on YouTube. Measure of a good driver is to adapt though, and that he has done.

Edited June 9, 2007 by Necx0

[Beer Baron]

schuey is no doubt the best. he one through periods with TC, without TC, with aids, without aids. and he was a master of wet conditions and changeable conditions. yes he has made some suspect moves, and suspect decisions but he is the greatest, no doubt.

[Forged]

schuey is no doubt the best. he one through periods with TC, without TC, with aids, without aids. and he was a master of wet conditions and changeable conditions. yes he has made some suspect moves, and suspect decisions but he is the greatest, no doubt.

I second that.

"It is difficult comparing drivers from different generations who competed in utterly different machines makes it almost unanswerable.

However, the one thing that survives throughout history is the hard statistics. And with Michael Schumacher finishing his career with seven world championships and more than 90 grand prix wins, you have to say the statistics argue strongly in his favour. At least two more world titles than his nearest rival, Juan Manuel Fangio. Almost as many victories as Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna combined. More pole positions even than Senna's incredible record. So if achievement is the yardstick, Schumacher must be the greatest ever."

[Necx0]

But Schuey had no real competition. Granted in his Benetton and early Ferrari days he did have some stiff competition but certainly in his later times he had no-one to challenge him.

Top 5 in 2000 in points:

M. Schumacher

M. Hakkinen

D. Coulthard

R. Barrichello

R. Schumacher

Top 5 in 1990 in points:

A. Senna

A. Prost

N. Piquet

G. Berger

N.Mansell

Field is kind of a different calibre really. Schuey easily could have become a 10 time world champ. Stupidity against Villeneuve in 97, broke his legs in 99 and again had brain fade last year.

[djr81]

You forgot his brain explosion in '94 against Hill.

You are all a bunch of noob's. Best F1 driver of all time was Jim Clark. Senna aside, the rest of those mentioned aren't yet qualifed to remove his tyre warmers - except he never had tyre warmers, or telemetary, or 40,000 engineers to make the car perfect, or crash barriers & side impact regulations. Only a dodgy Colin Chapman chassis that was half as strong as it should have been & a customer Ford motor.

But for me the greatest will always be Jack Brabham. He & Ron Tauranac managed to run, engineer & finance a grand prix team (with parallel minor formula involvement with Honda, no less) using an Australian engine to two consecutive World Championships. One to Sir Jack (His third) & one to the much lamented Denny Hulme. Parochialism, sure - but read his auto bio & dig through the things they used to get up to in the 60's. The longevity of both his & Ron Tauranac's relationships with auto giants such as Honda is testament to the integrity & many other qualities that these two old school gents have. Unlike most of those on the above lists you need not make any excuses for them.