Aftermarket Piggyback Ecu For Auto?

[humble]

Sweet so he has finally sorted it out

do you know if he has tested on any car on here? if so it would be good to get opinions and feedback.

[Tangles]

sent an email to DrDrift:

"Hi mate. I heard on the grapevine today (on SAU, skylinesaustralia.com) that

you now can do remaps to Nissan R33 RB25det ECU's. Is that correct? can you

remap AUTO R33 ecu's?

Ive got a modified Stagea awd auto wagon, using 2x piggybacks for air:fuel

(SAFCII) and ignition timing (SITC). Need a better option for tuning,

wondering if you can help.

Im in Adelaide though......."

reply:

"We can certainly take car of the ECU for you, and then you would be able to

use Jeff, from the speed lab, for tuning locally. Feel free to call on 0425

818 755 if you'd like to discuss.

Regards,

Sam"

going to make that phone call sooner rather then later

[Tangles]

so I take it I can send the ecu, along with the complete list of mods etc, perhaps copies of previous dynotune?, to get chipped and modified, and potentially then reuse the safc and sitc combo for finetuning on a dyno. got to call Sam tho, probably tomorrow now (bit late now for a friday arvo..)

sounds good to me, highly likely thats how I'll get my Stagea fine tuned. even if the safc/sitc wasnt necessary, I think itd be best to keep them in for that finetune option.

[Duncan]

I haven't dealt with dr drift personally, but yes a list of mods and previous dyno information would be a starting point, and then run it on a dyno when the ECU is back to make sure it is safe should work.

but even better is to do it on a dyno real time with a romulator. not sure who in adelaide can do it sorry,

[Tangles]

yeah Id get the ecu back in the car, take it to a dynotuner, and retune the safc/sitc to suit.

that way Id have a remapped ecu to suit my mods, and a safc/sitc combo for finetuning.

Id be happy with that

[AlexCim]

I will let everyone know how it goes once I gather the cash to afford the supporting mods that I need for my final power goal.

I don't mind doing testing

[FLYSLY]

So your keeping the Stag now Alex?

[AlexCim]

I had it for sale, at a f**king fair price and no one snapped it up.

I am going to keep it now yep, going to become my new tow car and daily.

Going to give it more power and roo-killer spec it with some fog lights and big CB atenna for use when out friday nights

[FLYSLY]

i think you need to remove your for sale link now lol

[jippa]

so this sounds good. say some of us had simillar mods could the same tune be remaped to each ecu.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Sydneykid,

Since the standard ecu has such a complex interface with the shift maps it makes sense to keep as much of this as you can. To build on what works 'piggy back style' is probably as best as you can get at the moment.

Interestingly this is what the emanage ultimate does. It doesn't have a great deal of precision to alter shift parameters but coupled with the alterations possible against vehicle speed/acceleration maps in both fuel and ignition etc it's very much miles ahead of bunging in a power FC for an auto. I can see how this can peg back most of the 'car park' short comings you are talking about.

So at the base level auto control the emanage does exactly what the S-afc and ITC do (ie: leave it to the factory ecu) but, unlike the S-AFC combo you can cater for the new power levels more favorably by tweaking the auto's factory control. Not to mention the e-manage is a real tuning device with full 3D mapping, unlike the povo' combo.

I'm reffering to the ultimate BTW not the blue meanie. I have a screenshot of the software showing the autoshift alterations occur to the original ecu map.

I certainly agree with the issues you have highlighted for other plugin ecu's but, I think on paper the ultimate might be able to do what we want in terms of shift quality. Will have to see how we go when I give it a shot later.

My understanding of the EManage Ultimate is that (like the FCon) it has provision for high rpm WOT ignition retard on gearchange. Somewhat like the RB25DET (non Neo) VVT, it is a simple "above one point" change. Basically you input;

1. over 5,000 rpm and at WOT, retard the ignition 10 degrees on the upchange

2. over 5,000 rpm at WOT on the down change, retard the ignition 12 degrees

That's it, unlike the standard ECU, the retard is not infinitely variable, not load sensing, not mapped (2 dimensionally or 3 dimensionally). This would give some increase in protection for the gearbox from high power loading on the gearchanges, but it does nothing for the smoothness of the shift (or protection) for anything other than WOT gearchanges. It is also questionable whether the change over (retard vs not retard) should be at maximum torque or maximum horsepower. The answer is that the requirements are very different for those circumstances.

If/when the Ultimate has mapped retard, like the normal ignition map, with axis for RPM and load then it would/will be a viable alternative. Until then it offers slightly more gearbox protection at WOT than a Power FC (or any other stand alone ECU), that’s about it.

The real question here is what are we chasing with 200+ 4wkw automatic S1 Stageas? Last time I added it up, the total cost far exceeds the change over price to an S2 manual. Which has the stronger drive train, better engine, larger brakes etc etc.

well, I run the safc and sitc, and Im sure there must be a better way about it. has 190rwkw at 14psi dropping to 12psi, atm needs another tune tho as I changed the muffler (even slightest changes in air/fuel/timing delivery require the tune to be proffesionally reworked, ie such as adding a radiator air guide with scoop, such as encasing a podfilter in a cai box, such as slightly increasing the size of a intercooler, etc etc). I think my package might realise around 210rwkw at 15/16psi, maybe 215rwkw, maybe only 205rwkw, at the next (soonish) retune.

Currently tho its using too much fuel for my liking, although power output is up by over 50% from when I got the car and fuel consumption is up by around say 17%.

My 20 cents worth;

190 rwkw at 12 psi is pretty damn impressive, I don’t think I could better that with a Power FC in an auto. Keep in mind that you are loosing at least 10 rwkw maybe as much as 15 rwkw through the auto.

I changed the cat (ceramic high flow to metallic high flow) and had to retune the Power FC in the R33GTST. An SAFC/SITC combo is not alone in the sort of retuning requirement.

215 rwkw at 16 psi is equally as impressive, that would be ~230 rwkw in a R33GTST with a manual. Not many exceed that with your mods, even using a Power FC.

My Stagea, same driver, same roads, same traffic uses similar fuel on a daily basis as the R33GTST manual (with Power FC) which has around 15 rwkw more. There wouldn’t be $3 in it on weekly basis. Which for a 4wd auto weighing 300 kgs more, is quite satisfactory IMHO.

The lesson I have learnt is not to expect the unreasonable and to be realistic in my targets.

cheers

[Tangles]

The real question here is what are we chasing with 200+ 4wkw automatic S1 Stageas? Last time I added it up, the total cost far exceeds the change over price to an S2 manual. Which has the stronger drive train, better engine, larger brakes etc etc.

My 20 cents worth;

190 rwkw at 12 psi is pretty damn impressive, I don’t think I could better that with a Power FC in an auto. Keep in mind that you are loosing at least 10 rwkw maybe as much as 15 rwkw through the auto.

I changed the cat (ceramic high flow to metallic high flow) and had to retune the Power FC in the R33GTST. An SAFC/SITC combo is not alone in the sort of retuning requirement.

215 rwkw at 16 psi is equally as impressive, that would be ~230 rwkw in a R33GTST with a manual. Not many exceed that with your mods, even using a Power FC.

My Stagea, same driver, same roads, same traffic uses similar fuel on a daily basis as the R33GTST manual (with Power FC) which has around 15 rwkw more. There wouldn’t be $3 in it on weekly basis. Which for a 4wd auto weighing 300 kgs more, is quite satisfactory IMHO.

The lesson I have learnt is not to expect the unreasonable and to be realistic in my targets.

cheers

too true, too true.

maybe I am being unrealistic? But I sort of figure that perhaps a chipped stnd ecu might be a good compromise (between stnd ecu and aftermarket ecu), still using the safc and sitc to get the best tune as possible. I think its a sound theory.

Id just suggest that a better flowing muffler (now installed), an adj cam gear wheel set to retard 4 degrees (sitting at home), an ecu remap and a boost rise to 16psi, with retune of safc/sitc to suit, would harness a 20rwkw gain.......... Id be happy with 200rwkw at the end of the day at around the 1bar mark. Dont discount the slide highflow turbo, an impressive piece of kit. For the price.

At this stage Ive discounted the powerfc as being too hard basket, Dont know the secret squirrel trick, dont know how to wire it up in conjunction with the stnd ecu (hence using it as piggyback), there is the issue with the ecu plug and the r34 pfc vvt issue; havent got the time or the resources to muck around with it.... drdrift remap sounds like a sound deal. Mind you Im happy with what I have got at the moment.

[MRO]

I have or am going to have similar mods - i like the sound of the ECU remap. (Group buy !!!)

[rev210]

In discussion with my brother today about his 69 dodge charger project a very similar topic came up about the shift smoothness he was planning to retain on his proposed efi hemi transplant. The car will be a sunday cruiser with some occasional event racing.

He suggested this as a solution he was looking into for the same reasons (he is turboing the 6L hemi) ;

http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html

[humble]

i spoke wit Sam ( Dr Drift) about the ECU remaps.

ATM the price is hefty at $1300 + tune.

i mentioned a group buy and he said that the best that could be done at the stage would be getting an ecu same as in your car, he sends it to Japan and when it returns and is installed you can credit you current ecu for dyno time...

apparently the suppilers of the part are asking big $$$ for bit ATM but if there is large demands then Sam's guy in Japan can start buying in bulk and pass through the savings...

still at early stages although as with the s13's im sure costs will decrease in the future.

cheers

ian

[Tangles]

wow, thats a lot of money.

maybe in a few yrs time then, cant afford that amount at this stage.

damn pity

[Sydneykid]

In discussion with my brother today about his 69 dodge charger project a very similar topic came up about the shift smoothness he was planning to retain on his proposed efi hemi transplant. The car will be a sunday cruiser with some occasional event racing.

He suggested this as a solution he was looking into for the same reasons (he is turboing the 6L hemi) ;

http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html

PSC style stuff has been around for a while. MV Autos in Adelaide even makes a simple one than fully manualises the shifts in an auto. The US made ones I have seen are programable auto gearbox controllers, they do a great job of telling the auto when to change gear. Very useful in applications where the standard gearbox ECU is usuitable. For our purposes I don't see them as a solution, as they have no control over ignition, or any other engine parameter. They take inputs from the engine (throttle position, engine rpm etc) as well as road speed, and some even have grade logic. But their control outputs are to the gearbox only. You can output signals for an electronic speedo and things like shift position lights on the dash, but they aren't control outputs as such.

cheers

[rev210]

PSC style stuff has been around for a while. MV Autos in Adelaide even makes a simple one than fully manualises the shifts in an auto. The US made ones I have seen are programable auto gearbox controllers, they do a great job of telling the auto when to change gear. Very useful in applications where the standard gearbox ECU is usuitable. For our purposes I don't see them as a solution, as they have no control over ignition, or any other engine parameter. They take inputs from the engine (throttle position, engine rpm etc) as well as road speed, and some even have grade logic. But their control outputs are to the gearbox only. You can output signals for an electronic speedo and things like shift position lights on the dash, but they aren't control outputs as such.

cheers

I raised the issues you mention in the conversation I had as I was thinking the same way. What seems to be the case is while there is some logic behind softening the ecu maps to help the trans cope with torque loadings what stands out is the fact that the ecu isn't a trans controller and what it does is to baid aid the fact that the factory trans controller is a fairly basic one when compared to a good aftermarket one. Why have two expensive computers in the car when the ECU for the engine has the head room to allow for a cheaper trans controller? (ok thats maybe a harsh bit of speculation).

The factory nissan trans ecu will have a program in it thas pretty unsuitable to an engine with a totally different torque curve (thanks to our high flow turbo's and revised fuel and ignition maps).

If you have a trans controller that effectively can trace engine load and just about every other parrameter to do with power delivery in much the same way as an engine ecu can and has the capacity to cater for it, then you have a better solution? The transmission has the inbuilt capacity if programed to cope with a massive range of conditions without the need for the engine ecu to soften things up on the shift. The trans can vary a number of things to ensure a 'good shift' without undue destruction in fact this is the only real way to ensure the best outcome. A customised program for the trans has to be the lions share of the solution in the case of a power upgrade , with the factory ecu left to to do as little as possible. The factory nissan trans ecu will have a program pretty unsuitable to an engine with a totally different torque cure, so you need a new trans ecu if want somthing that works the most effectively.

I'm not sure if this makes any kind of sense at all?

[Sydneykid]

I raised the issues you mention in the conversation I had as I was thinking the same way. What seems to be the case is while there is some logic behind softening the ecu maps to help the trans cope with torque loadings what stands out is the fact that the ecu isn't a trans controller and what it does is to baid aid the fact that the factory trans controller is a fairly basic one when compared to a good aftermarket one. Why have two expensive computers in the car when the ECU for the engine has the head room to allow for a cheaper trans controller? (ok thats maybe a harsh bit of speculation).

The factory nissan trans ecu will have a program in it thas pretty unsuitable to an engine with a totally different torque curve (thanks to our high flow turbo's and revised fuel and ignition maps).

If you have a trans controller that effectively can trace engine load and just about every other parrameter to do with power delivery in much the same way as an engine ecu can and has the capacity to cater for it, then you have a better solution? The transmission has the inbuilt capacity if programed to cope with a massive range of conditions without the need for the engine ecu to soften things up on the shift. The trans can vary a number of things to ensure a 'good shift' without undue destruction in fact this is the only real way to ensure the best outcome. A customised program for the trans has to be the lions share of the solution in the case of a power upgrade , with the factory ecu left to to do as little as possible. The factory nissan trans ecu will have a program pretty unsuitable to an engine with a totally different torque cure, so you need a new trans ecu if want somthing that works the most effectively.

I'm not sure if this makes any kind of sense at all?

Kinda..........let me try again....

The auto ECU tells the engine ECU that it is about to change gear, so the engine ECU retards/cuts the ignition according to a map, using whole pile of parameters (throttle position, AFM voltage, engine rpm, road speed, what gear etc etc)

Once the gear change has happened the auto ECU tells the engine ECU, so the engine ECU stops retarding/cutting the ignition and resumes "normal" mapping.

The fact that the auto ECU is maybe changing gear at the wrong time is irrelevant to the igntion retard/cut, ie; it still does it while the gearchange is happening. Hence it smooths the gearchange and takes the torque loading off the bands/clutch packs.

So using a programable auto ECU will make the gearchanges happen at the right time (if you get the mapping right), but it won't fix the lack of retard/cut, that is the engine ECU's responsibility. The problem (as I see it) is that no matter what you do to the gearchange take up, the fact is without the engine ECU retarding/cutting the ignition, you will still get FULL TORQUE loadings for as long at that take up takes. Simplistically there are only 2 gearchange (up or down) parameters that you can vary, speed and firmness;

1. If you shorten the take up then you get harsh gear changes. If you lengthen the take up, then you get burn out of the clutchpacks and/or bands.

2. If you make the take up firmer, then you get harsh gear changes. If you soften the take up, then you get burn out of the clutchpacks and/or bands.

The only true solution is to remove/lessen the torque loading while the gearchange is happening.

Maybe an other example, in some Toyotas the ignition cut/retard is done by the gearbox ECU. All the mapping (and code) for cut and retard lives in the gearbox ECU programming. That's why you can buy Power FC's for auto Toyotas. For them APEXI didn't need to write thouands of lines of cut/retard code into the engine ECU (Power FC). Because of Nissan's system, they would have to do that (at great programming expense) for Nissan Power FC's.

cheers

[driftae76]

would a chipped rb20det (auto) ecu work in an S1 stag rs4??