Aftermarket Piggyback Ecu For Auto?

[jippa]

auto shift ignition retard...? please explain more. the only problem i can see wit power fc is if all the sensors / wires can not be connected properly. if they can then tuning should be no problem. the mechanic at c red seemed quite confident that he could get it to work on satag. good news is someone is trying it before me so if it works i will get it also and once it has been done once the secound time should be easy .......... hopefully

[wildr33gtst]

The SITC and SAFC2 is a good combo i made alright power with it, but they both got stolen so i have decided to go the greddy emanage Ultimate path as i think it will work a bit better, and the SITC is always hard to find. But if you can find it, it is a proven recipe to work and work well.

[rev210]

Can you please explain further on this??? Your own experience??

I'm not sure which part you wanted me to explain further but, I noticed the 'blunt tools' part in bold so I'll start there.

On the S-AFC fou have a 'whopping' 12 load points set by RPM and activated by 2 throttle postion ranges and then you have a S-ITC with even less abillity to target load points at a fine level. It's not that it's a really bad thing, it is afterall very cheap. And for cheap you don't get much tuning required because there isn't much you can tune. You compare that with an ecu that has a full 16x16 Map for ignition and fuel and thats when you see how 'blunt' they are. The S-AFC is such a simple tool a monkey can install and tune it in an hour.

I've had a fair bit of experience with the Apexi blue box in it's various models on different cars. None so far with the emanage, although I've spent plenty of time researching it.

I haven't suggested people go buy an emanage because ulitmately (pun) you need someone to tune it. If you do then there isn't a point to the 'blue box' appart from being a povo' solution. A car tuned well on the emanage will be far superior.

[FLYSLY]

I can see where you are coming from for sure and yes i understand that the e-manage obviously is far superior technology wise, But i have heard and read of many accounts of people having pleanty of trouble just to get the e-manage installed and running properly on their car.

Back when i had my old silvia i was looking at going down the path of the e-manage because it had an rb20 in and it was very hard to come by a powerfc for the rb20, the only person that i could find who really knew what they were talking about when it came to the e-manage was Trent from Autobarn at the time now he is URAS, but now i dont think he installs them or tunes them anymore.

I would be more than happy to go down the path of the e-manage if i could find someone who has had experience in setting them up and tunning them. But until i can find someone to do this i think i will just stick with what people can install and tune with ease and i know i will be able to get the results i want with the Apexi equipment.

[GorGasm]

The Z32 allows for more air to be tuned to flow through, fuel pump go for something like the bosch 040.

A good tuner for the e-manage would be harder to come by than a good tuner for the Apexi equipment.

Gorgasm: i dont mean to be rude but im surprised that your only making 186rwkw with your mods, cause im make 162 at all 4 without a tune. And i know for a fact that having the SAFC alone makes a big difference in power.

Bear in mind that you have a GCG turbo, according to your sig and im running the good old ceramic wonder. :]

The Z32 helps because it should produce a lower AFM voltage for a given airflow. Thus R&R will kick in later and be easier to tune around. Increasing the fuel pressure can have a similar effect because you can dial out more airflow to get around R&R.

Emanage allows you to completely bypass R&R and other quirks in the factory ecu while still having the auto shift logic in place.

Power FC wont work well because it doesnt talk to the Auto ecu.

Another issue with the SITC is that it doesnt have enough resolution. To be suited to a neo stagea/skyline it needs a point at 4500-5000 rpm due to R&R cutting timing horribly. SITC only has points at 4000 and 5600 and at each of these points the timing is near normal. Below is a timing map from my car during R&R. Note the large hole at 4600rpm. I have the point at 4000rpm dialed up to +5 and 0 at 5600rpm. Any more timing at 5600 causes me detonation.

[rev210]

I can see where you are coming from for sure and yes i understand that the e-manage obviously is far superior technology wise, But i have heard and read of many accounts of people having pleanty of trouble just to get the e-manage installed and running properly on their car.

Back when i had my old silvia i was looking at going down the path of the e-manage because it had an rb20 in and it was very hard to come by a powerfc for the rb20, the only person that i could find who really knew what they were talking about when it came to the e-manage was Trent from Autobarn at the time now he is URAS, but now i dont think he installs them or tunes them anymore.

I would be more than happy to go down the path of the e-manage if i could find someone who has had experience in setting them up and tunning them. But until i can find someone to do this i think i will just stick with what people can install and tune with ease and i know i will be able to get the results i want with the Apexi equipment.

I with you on the 'who can tune' angle.

Certainly it's the case that the emanage 'blue' has had plenty of early issues . There is also a case generally that no matter what ecu brand there are x number of bad experiences for a variety of reasons. Finding a tuner is often the biggest issue. The best situation to be in is one where you attempt to come to grips with the software interface of whatever ecu you select and gain as much familiarity as you can before buying (sometimes this is easy). To learn how to tune using the interface yourself and knowing the quick locations of each feature enables you to avoid a large amount of tuning pain. Best of all is not re-inventing the wheel so going to the emanage forum is an excellent starting point.

I think there are a few people not far from testing an emanage on an auto RB and perhaps one or two with stageas. My decision is still a few months away but, the e-manage ultimate looks to be in front.

[Ska]

Now that the Power-FC has been discontinued, I would assume that most people will turn to the E-Manage as the next best alternative, which will in turn hopefully push tuners into getting aquainted with them, and hey presto, in time I think the E-Manage will become the new Power-FC.

[captinsane]

a mate plug and palyed his emanage ultimate into his automatic 34 GTT and it ran fine.. he just now has to get a tuner, and he is going about getting a new kick panel made up to house both ECU's.

Emanage will be my preffered weapon of choice i believe.

[Tangles]

Im running a safc2 and sitc, tuned at 12psi with 189rwkw (well, was 14psi but dropping to 12psi due to restrictive muffler) with highflow bushbearing turbo, z32afm, 040 fuelpump, fmic, 3inch exhaust, but now with a higher-flowing muffler recently added (needs a final retune to 15psi) etc etc. Goes ok for what it is, will comment further after the last tune I'll finally get.

Expecting around the 200awkw mark at 15psi, but its a 'patch' measure. I wont be going emanage due to hassles with install and finding a pro tuner. Id prefer to use a Apexi PowerFC and I might upgrade to that in a yr or two's time. A PowerFC works FINE in an auto inconjunction with a MVauto's Shift Kit. It works, it works fine. I know of a bloke doing this now woth an auto r33 with 300rwkw, works fine as a daily driver. The gearbox may need a rebuild after a few years but thats no different to going thru clutches with manuals every few years with a decently tuned manual rb25det.

Apexi PowerFC + shift kit will work. It'll take a little r&r to install and fine tune but it will work. Im just not sure what year PFC I should (eventually) purchase.

[wildr33gtst]

i'm waiting for the emanage Ultimate to arrive so looking foward to the outcome, I will do a comparision once it's tuned. My old setup against the new one. Shouldnt be to long!

[Sydneykid]

For the upteenth time..........

The facts are;

1. The auto gearbox has its own ECU to change gears, up, down, skip, slip, lock up the torque converter etc. The engine ECU has NOTHING to do with this functionality.

2. The standard Engine ECU retards and cuts the ignition on gear changes to give smooth changes and (mostly) to protect the gearbox from the torque loadings during the WOT gear changes.

3. That level of protection is necessary at STANDARD power. Obviously when you fit a Power FC (or any other ECU or piggyback) you are chasing LOTS MORE than standard power.

4. The standard Engine ECU has an EXTENSIVE set of ignition retard and cut maps to match the numerous gear change scenarios. Think about the variability’s, uphill, downhill, any one of 4 gears plus reverse, all throttle openings, boost levels etc etc. A Nissan engineer told me that the gear change logic code in the Engine ECU (for ignition cut and retard) was far greater in both volume and complexity that what was required to get the engine to run.

5. Power FC and EManage do not have that logic and they have no provision for it to be loaded. Do you really think that if it could be done economically Apexi wouldn’t have done it themselves?

6. It’s a piece of piss to get a Power FC to run the engine in an auto, been done heaps of times. The problem is no power cut on gear changes, so with full torque loadings they rip though clutch packs and belts like crazy. Plus the gear changes are both harsh and uncomfortable.

7. The more power you have the worse the problem is. Toughening up the gearbox (valve body upgrade, Kevlar belts etc) simply make the gear changes harsher and more uncomfortable. Of course, the gearbox still dies, it just takes a little longer.

8. To get the ignition cut/retard on gear changes you need the logic (programming) contained in the standard Engine ECU. That means it has to control the ignition timing.

9. Hence all you can do with the Power FC or EManage is control the fuel, hardly a brilliant tuning option. Do it for less than half the price with an SAFC or even less with a DFA.

10. The DFA/SAFC and SITC route works because they sit between the sensors (SITC = CAS and SAFC/DFA = AFM) and the standard ECU. They bend the input signals (voltages) to get the ECU to do what you want it to. So the standard ECU can still retard and/or cut the igntion on gear changes. The EManage/FCon route DOESN"T work because they sit between the standard ECU and the output devices (ignitors and injectors). So the standard ECU has no control of ignition timing.

I have heard heaps of guys say that "their auto is OK" with a Power FC or EManage or FCon, but the truth is I have ridden in quite a few and the gear change quality is crap and clutch slip is always noticeable. Every one of them has had a gearbox rebuild.

You will find that the compromises with the SAFC/DFA and SITC are much less once you upgrade the turbo GorGasm. The boost curve and compressor outlet air temperature rise on the standard turbo make tuning a real pain in the ass.

cheers

[wildr33gtst]

God damn it might have to look for my old setup again, I was happy before but after it got stolen i was going to try something different since apparently the EMU ran Auto Transmissions, but after reading that don't know if i should bother. Since Sydneykid knows his stuff i'm not arguing the SAFC/SITC combo is the way to go.

[Tangles]

well, I run the safc and sitc, and Im sure there must be a better way about it. has 190rwkw at 14psi dropping to 12psi, atm needs another tune tho as I changed the muffler (even slightest changes in air/fuel/timing delivery require the tune to be proffesionally reworked, ie such as adding a radiator air guide with scoop, such as encasing a podfilter in a cai box, such as slightly increasing the size of a intercooler, etc etc). I think my package might realise around 210rwkw at 15/16psi, maybe 215rwkw, maybe only 205rwkw, at the next (soonish) retune.

Currently tho its using too much fuel for my liking, although power output is up by over 50% from when I got the car and fuel consumption is up by around say 17%.

I know there's a heap more hp in my particular setup, but isnt being utilised properly; at least not like it could be with a fully programable ecu. Surely, surely, couldnt a powerfc be wired up in conjunction with the standard ecu in an automatic awd stagea?

a power fc will run an automatic rb25det, with a shift kit... the ride isnt that harsh imo. Ive been in a +300rwkw local auto rb25det r33 sedan, absolutely mental power delivery, pulled hard thru the rpm gear changes as the speed increased and at no time was it uncomfortable with the shifts, but on the flipside it was a bit of a pussycat in city traffic with the shifts being super smooth, and reasonably responsive.

and thats coming from me who uses SK's suspn kit without the whiteline springs, if you know what I mean by that. ie I stayed with the 'plush' stnd springs as i didnt want to chance the fact that I may not like the lowered whiteline springs, it may have been too harsh for my liking (have no idea tho, although adelaide roads are bumpy and harsh). In my 100% trustworthy (Im an honest bloke, honest!!) opinion, the auto shifts I experienced were completely bearable for everyday life. But youd be a fool not to have the box rebuilt and strengthened, eventually. and if it went again (say 2 rebuilds in 90,000kms) then so be it, just like a full hipo clutch setup in a sic GTR needs to be replaced now and then.

its a given tho that a rebuild to the auto (including strengthening work) would eventually take place due to the excessive wear and tear from no ignition retard on higher rpm shifts. if you had an auto with shift kit and powerfc, youd want to save for a gearbox rebuild, as it'd eventually need a "service". simple as that - but it does work. so thats the thing. how to maintain ignition retard on gear changes via standard ecu but utilise proper tuning management from an aftermarket ecu. With both standard and aftermarket ecu's wired up inconjunction with each other? is that at all possible?

I have a 97 model auto stagea - Id love to know what model powerfc would click into place; or would a r34 rb25det powerfc work anyways, along with the stnd ecu to work the gears and take control of the vvt........ ? I have no idea. Can other aftermarket ecu's be wired up in conjunction with a stnd ecu (to solely control shift logic), if so whats a likely option?

hhhhhm, Im going to ask my tuner what the quote might be (to wire up the standard ecu and say a powerfc, to tune and test/confirm all works fine). its not that I "want" to spend 2grand on a ecu tried, tested and tuned, but Id like to be able to totally utilise and fine tune my current running gear combo. I dont believe safc/sitc piggybacks can do that "well" around that 200awkw mark. 160awkw and the safc/sitc combo works well enough tho for most ppl (including me), but 200awkw (where I should be now) and I feel a proper programable ecu needs to be used.

pointers? suggestions? I dunno. lol. I guess I'll have more to add once I have a final tune done to the safc / sitc combo I have now, to see what the power delivery is like and what the fuel useage is like. Im sure I'll be happy for a while, but my car is a 10+yr keeper and eventually I see it having a proper programmed ecu. i think. no, Im sure.

[rev210]

For the upteenth time..........

5. Power FC and EManage do not have that logic and they have no provision for it to be loaded. Do you really think that if it could be done economically Apexi wouldn’t have done it themselves?

cheers

Hi Sydneykid,

Since the standard ecu has such a complex interface with the shift maps it makes sense to keep as much of this as you can. To build on what works 'piggy back style' is probably as best as you can get at the moment.

Interestingly this is what the emanage ultimate does. It doesn't have a great deal of precision to alter shift parameters but coupled with the alterations possible against vehicle speed/acceleration maps in both fuel and ignition etc it's very much miles ahead of bunging in a power FC for an auto. I can see how this can peg back most of the 'car park' short comings you are talking about.

So at the base level auto control the emanage does exactly what the S-afc and ITC do (ie: leave it to the factory ecu) but, unlike the S-AFC combo you can cater for the new power levels more favorably by tweaking the auto's factory control. Not to mention the e-manage is a real tuning device with full 3D mapping, unlike the povo' combo.

I'm reffering to the ultimate BTW not the blue meanie. I have a screenshot of the software showing the autoshift alterations occur to the original ecu map.

I certainly agree with the issues you have highlighted for other plugin ecu's but, I think on paper the ultimate might be able to do what we want in terms of shift quality. Will have to see how we go when I give it a shot later.

Edited June 12, 2007 by rev210

[stageaharts]

Jippa

thanks for bringing this up mate, as i have also been thinking about an aftermarket unit to suppliment the ecu once a few mods are completed.

this topic is a bit of a dark horse, having read through the pages of info regarding PFC's and e-manage ultimate's etc. i must admit, the information provided is not unanimous and can get quite confusing, especially for a relative n00b like me... hehehe.

SK has a strong argument for the SAFC/SITC combo, which seems like the easiest and most vehicle 'friendly' route to take, however i have no doubt that if an e-manage ultimate could be tuned for the stagea, it would be superior (due to the amount of tuning points, tuning options etc.) than the SAFC/SITC combo.

i'm looking forward to seeing someone do this mod, as it is one i had planned to do (but i'll be overseas {soon} till feb next year so you'll have to wait if i'm the first ), because it would be great to finally have a clear response to the question: will an e-manage ultimate work well in conjunction with your auto stag -> ...

harts.

[leetom]

This is the question that I asked Aaron @ Sliding Performance a while ago.

Leigh.

View Member Profile 17 Feb 2007, 03:14 PM Post #5

leetom

Posts: 173

Joined: 11th June, 2005

From: Murwillumbah, Northern NSW

Member No.: 20,831

Car(s): stagea, frontera

Real Name: LEIGH

Trader Rating : 0

so back to the big question, will or wont work with autos......positively yes or poitively no.......hope yes

Slide

View Member Profile 17 Feb 2007, 05:00 PM Post #6

Sliding Performance

Posts: 26,430

Joined: 27th September, 2004

From: Gold Coast

Member No.: 13,726

Car(s): R33 GTST & ONEVIA

Real Name: Aaron

Trader Rating : 298

They absolutely do positively yes

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[mitchy_]

after reading through all that, i can understand the safc/sitc is a more favourable option, due to the price.

HOWEVER, i have a PFC laying around, as my 33 gts-t was written off.

is it worth installing that into a stagea, or trying to find a SAFC/SITC combo? because either way, im essentially not spending any money on either setup, but the pfc might be easier with the all in one option.

[Tangles]

dude. definately use the PowerFC, without question. However make sure you use it with an automatic gearbox stage2 shift kit. the safc/sitc combo is "ok" but its just changing 2 variables (air:fuel, ign timing). hardly an ideal option for a mildly modified turbo car; a compromise at best.

Im going to look into the Emanage Ultimate further................ see what price I can get from Slide, and find who has tuned them successfully here in Adelaide.

[mitchy_]

i thought as much, and a shift kit is on the cards anyway..

[AlexCim]

How about I take a step in here and trump all of you and your piggybacks.

It has come to my knowledge that Sam (Dr Drift) now does remaps for R33 ECU's, including the automatic ECU's.

This means I can keep all my std ECU features and also get the tune that I want and need.

Over the new few months I will be saving up for my injectors to get highflowed to 550cc, a Z32 AFM and a remap on the Stagea. At this point, I am going to ditch the SITC/DFA combo and go for the remap.

I expect that I should be able to make ~230-235awkw through the auto box, which should be absorbed nicely by the stage 2 shift kit I already have.

At this point, if thats not enough, I may go as far as to manual convert it a year down the track, funds permitting. But, that conversion would be a rough job, just slap a box, pedals and handbrake in, no expensive fancy interior parts