Need A Solid Opinion: Hks Gtrs Vs 3037 Vs 2835?

[sl33py]

First of all: I've read the turbo swap thread! I didn't QUITE find the answer I'm looking for.

I've seen 3 or 4 graphs of these turbos, but not being a mechanic and knowing that half of the dyno results are in the tune and based on the supporting mods, I'm still not sure which to get. I believe they all cost similar, so price isn't the issue. I just want the most suitable turbo. My mechanic said they will both be close, but couldn't tell me for sure (off the top of his head) how one would differ from the other.

I've got an R33 GTST S2. Engine mods: turbo back 3" exhaust w/Metalcat, K&N panel filter, splitfires, RDA rotors & EBS redstuff, new shocks(Bilstein)/springs(Whiteline)/bushes/sways, Xtreme Custom clutch good for 300rwkw, Xtreme light flywheel, T1R tyres.

My main aim is really good response, combined with as much USABLE power as I can get, but only up to ~280-290rwkw. I don't want to risk the engine's bottom end and a rebuild. Even if I do that later, it'll be because I won lotto and don't care about money any more, so I won't mind having to ditch this turbo. But for now, I want it to be the most suitable for my current aim.

Just to confuse things, my mechanic/tuner suggested the HKS 3037 because "it has more potential". I read that HKS turbos are designed to be run with reasonably high boost, and I don't want to buy and under-utilise a 3037 if it's actually intended for higher power (he says it's good for 320rwkw, which I don't need).

I'll be getting the following support stuff:

Fuel pump, 555cc injectors, decent quality FMIC (600x300x76), FMIC, piping to keep the stock airbox (decided this after HEAPS of reading & I can avoid the induction noise), Haltech E11V2 (yes, maybe overkill, but it'll future proof me), stock BOV modded to suit (tuner does it for 100 bucks).

Might also get Poncams to give a bit more torque, budget and insanity allowing at the time I pull the trigger.

For a safely tuned 280rwkw (possibly a smidge more on a track day w/extra boost), which turbo would you guys/gals recommend?

I foresee this being IT for modding the car, until I buy a house etc so wanna get it right.

How do these turbos differ fundamentally, if at all? I'm not up on the whole exit housing size etc, even though I've tried reading and understanding it. Whose driven/ridden in cars with these? Trying to find out if one is found to give typically better response than the other or if one is more likely to run out of puff before 280kw.

PS please don't recommend Garrett (my mechanic likes HKS much more) or a high flow (won't give enough power). I'm trying to NARROW my options down now, not widen them haha From the limited number of graphs and a few PMs, I'm leaning towards the GTRS as they seem to give good response, but some graphs indicate that the 2835 would be very close in performance too.

If there's a thread comparing these turbos directly, pls link me! I couldn't find it. Thanks in advance.

Edited September 6, 2007 by sl33py

[ardie]

Look at my dyno results as well as steve and a few other ppls with the 3037. On 16 psi I make 280 rwkw on a stock engine, for the power your looking at, to stay safe I would go 3037, but then again I am bias. The way i see it, the 3037 will easily make the power your looking at making aswell as leave headroom for a further build down the track, also look at a trust td06 (yes i know you said no suggestions, but ask roy about these and you will see why I suggested it)

The GTRS is an awesome turbo, but results vary when shooting for your claimed 280-290 rwkw goal. I have seen it done, but i have also seen alot fall short by quite some margin.

Also, when you say turbo swap thread, do you mean Rb25 Turbo Upgrade thread, if so that should answer all your questions if you read it thoroughly.

PS if you want a GTRS I may have one in my hands in a few weeks, let me know.

Hope that helps

Edited September 6, 2007 by ardie

[abu]

Look at my dyno results as well as steve and a few other ppls with the 3037. On 16 psi I make 280 rwkw on a stock engine, for the power your looking at, to stay safe I would go 3037, but then again I am bias. The way i see it, the 3037 will easily make the power your looking at making aswell as leave headroom for a further build down the track, also look at a trust td06 (yes i know you said no suggestions, but ask roy about these and you will see why I suggested it)

Is the 3037 internal or external gate?

Roughly when do you make full boost with the 3037 on 16psi on an RB25?

Basically I am just interested to know if its to big/laggy for an RB20 as I am currently looking for a turbo.

Thanks, and sorry to go off topic.

Edited September 6, 2007 by abu

[Adz2332]

mate dont want to high jack ur thread but im having the same problem...

I also have a GTST series 2 33

My mods are

POD

Power FC and Controller

Apexi Boost Controller

3inch Stainless steel exhaust

FMIC

204.5kws

I to am looking for around 275 - 290 kws on a safe SAFE tune... more towards the 290kws...

Mines my daily driver and i dont want it to be to laggy either... More responsive the better

Any advice for me also would be good...

[ardie]

My 3037 was originally internally gated and runs the .68 rear, but I welded up the gate and now use a 50mm hks external gate and a trust manifold.

As for when i see full boost, its around 3500 rpm when the gate opens. For an rb20 I would suggest the GTRS as it is slightly smaller but still very power productive, or even an rb25 max oversize highflow. Then again, Roy has had some incredibly impressive results with his td06 (which is by no means a small turbo) on his 20, that thing is like a pig in mud when its fed boost. He would probably be the man to talk to as his the resident 20 lover here

[abu]

My 3037 was originally internally gated and runs the .68 rear, but I welded up the gate and now use a 50mm hks external gate and a trust manifold.

As for when i see full boost, its around 3500 rpm when the gate opens. For an rb20 I would suggest the GTRS as it is slightly smaller but still very power productive, or even an rb25 max oversize highflow. Then again, Roy has had some incredibly impressive results with his td06 (which is by no means a small turbo) on his 20, that thing is like a pig in mud when its fed boost. He would probably be the man to talk to as his the resident 20 lover here

Thanks heaps man.

Yep, am considering GTRS or Rb25 max high flow, but wouldn't mind going slightly bigger just in case I scrap the RB20 in the future, then I wont have the hassle of looking for another turbo, can just use the one I was using on the Rb20.

Roy's car is a machine, love it! Makes awesome power, and for the amount of time its lasted with the trashing he gives it is unbelievable.

Thanks again, sorry to go off topic!..

[The Mafia]

guys, be realistic.

You aren't going to be safe on a Standard motor over 250rwkw. Anything above that is a gamble. I've been running 300rwkw for a while now (more than a year) but there are factors involved there.

1. I'm a tuner and are constantly looking after the tune and monitoring it for knock, and being careful.

2. I change the oil every 3k-4k kms. (Shell Helix Fully synthetic 5w40)

3. I run water methanol Injection

4. Its not a track car, and I don't peak the revs out much at all.

5. My engine was like new when I got it - 169psi across all cylinders, and 2% leakdown. Its at 167psi and 3% leak down now.

If you want 280rwkw~ then get the GT3037 (garrett is fine) but also always have in the back of your mind that you could be rebuilding the engine the next time you take it for a drive.

It sure as hell is in the back of my mind when I drive my. Shit when I start it I'm thinking about it.

Ok, here are some other facts though.

I noticed you've been bullshitted into getting a FPR. Simply don't. Its not needed, as I don't have one. I run nismo 555cc injectors, and they'll take me to at least 310rwkw - 320rwkw on the factory regulator.

As about the Garrett \ HKS thing, tell your tuner to shut his mouth, and go and buy a GT3037 Garrett, 56 trim compressor, 0.6 compressor cover, 84 trim turbine, 0.82 IW rear housing. CHRA is 700177-5007.

I have one with a 0.63 rear and it makes 300rwkw on 17psi (creeping to 18psi). BUT I have water methanol injection. Take 20rwkw - 40rwkw from this to get your result. Also, the dyno I was on is under rating so you'll probably get about 280rwkw without WMI and a 0.82 rear housing).

Here is my thread - its worth a read.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...=167572&hl=

Edited September 6, 2007 by The Mafia

[Adz2332]

guys, be realistic.

You aren't going to be safe on a Standard motor over 250rwkw. Anything above that is a gamble. I've been running 300rwkw for a while now (more than a year) but there are factors involved there.

1. I'm a tuner and are constantly looking after the tune and monitoring it for knock, and being careful.

2. I change the oil every 3k-4k kms. (Shell Helix Fully synthetic 5w40)

3. I run water methanol Injection

4. Its not a track car, and I don't peak the revs out much at all.

5. My engine was like new when I got it - 169psi across all cylinders, and 2% leakdown. Its at 167psi and 3% leak down now.

If you want 280rwkw~ then get the GT3037 (garrett is fine) but also always have in the back of your mind that you could be rebuilding the engine the next time you take it for a drive.

It sure as hell is in the back of my mind when I drive my. Shit when I start it I'm thinking about it.

Ok, here are some other facts though.

I noticed you've been bullshitted into getting a FPR. Simply don't. Its not needed, as I don't have one. I run nismo 555cc injectors, and they'll take me to at least 310rwkw - 320rwkw on the factory regulator.

As about the Garrett \ HKS thing, tell your tuner to shut his mouth, and go and buy a GT3037 Garrett, 56 trim compressor, 0.6 compressor cover, 84 trim turbine, 0.82 IW rear housing. CHRA is 700177-5007.

I have one with a 0.63 rear and it makes 300rwkw on 17psi (creeping to 18psi). BUT I have water methanol injection. Take 20rwkw - 40rwkw from this to get your result. Also, the dyno I was on is under rating so you'll probably get about 280rwkw without WMI and a 0.82 rear housing).

Here is my thread - its worth a read.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...=167572&hl=

ok whats an FPR? stupid i kno!

Also ok what would u have to change in the standered motor to keep it from needing a rebuild? what do u need to strengthen?

[Blitz]

HKS GT-RS is the best option for you IMHO

Good response, serious grunt and will perfectly match your power goals.

[sl33py]

Cheers, read that thread already - that's what gave me the impression that the 3037 would be under-utilised and/or running outside it's ideal efficiency etc. Steve also commented that boost came on too early and too hard for street use on anything over 1.2 bar... and that only gave him 256rwkw. I guess another requirement for me is that the power is relatively smooth, it'll be 95% road driven, with a few visits to the track (sudden boost won't be useful for either of these). I quite like the power delivery as the car is, just want More

[abu]

ok whats an FPR? stupid i kno!

Also ok what would u have to change in the standered motor to keep it from needing a rebuild? what do u need to strengthen?

Fuel pressure regulator.

Holds more pressure in the fuel rail so that the tune runs a little richer.

Like Jono said, not needed if the car is tuned with some sort of engine management.

Edited September 6, 2007 by abu

[sl33py]

FPR is a fuel regualator. I had that in the list from when I was looking at modding in two stages, the first stage didn't have injectors, hence the need for the regulator I think... or maybe the fact that my tuner has a few R33's running around with 300rwkw on stock injectors and a rising rate regulator. Irrelevent I guess, if I do it all at once.

He also says it's "chalk and cheese" between the Garrett and the HKS, mostly with respect to the response of the turbo. I won't pretend to know why. I should ask eh haha. Anyway, I'm reading your thread now though.

No worries at the similar questions from others! 280rwkw seems to becoming the popular goal now. I guess that's because a rebuild is a more certain thing after 300rwkw. On that note: I have to admit I drive my car like a granny compared to some others hahah. I've only redlined a few times in nearly 3 years, most recently when I got the new flywheel and it revved through the range much quicker than I was used to. Other than that, I usually shift 1k from redline at most! Oil changed every 5thou kms. I look after it and intend to keep it until it fossil fueled vehicles become outlawed! My mechanic said 280rwkw is pretty safe and I've seen several cars (well looked after though!) getting around after a few years of ~260rwkw and no signs of problems.

I intend to get my mechanic to do compressions tests etc etc to see how healthy the car is to start with. No point modding it if it's weak to start with (unless I rebuild it stronger first.... hmmm). I can get a HKS GTRS kit for ~2780 (locally!). Does the Garrett equivalent work out much cheaper? Already seems pretty cheap for a whole kit...

Hey, u got a nice curve there! What conditions did you have that made it kick out so hard on the street, compared to what you show in this dyno? Cos that dyno doesn't look like something that would put you sideways as readily as you said (driven with some sense of course... any car can do it if driven stupidly).

Edited September 6, 2007 by sl33py

[Lithium]

He also says it's "chalk and cheese" between the Garrett and the HKS, mostly with respect to the response of the turbo. I won't pretend to know why. I should ask eh haha. Anyway, I'm reading your thread now though.

I'm finding him a bit irritating as a tuner from a few of the things you have mentioned about him haha. Chalk and cheese is funny, as a GT3076R from Garrett IS a HKS GT3037. Or the other way around if you want. Made in the same factory, same wheels and core. It'll spool the same-ish. The only reason there could be any varience is that HKS do 8cm/10cm/12cm style turbine housings while Garrett are .63, .82, 1.06 so they're on a slightly different scale.

Other than that, its all just looks (ie, HKS label on the compressor cover etc...). I vote the GT3076R, HKS GT-RS and GT3071R are right up at the max out area of their efficiency at 300kw @ wheels whereas as you say, its beneath a GT3076R. You don't want to be maxing your turbo out to make the power you want, a GT3076R spools fairly well still (.63 a/r is a bit snappy, but in a fun way haha) but has head room for if you do get a little greedy in future etc.

I would not go for a GT-RS for a 270-280rwkw R33, personally. It'd be working too hard and working the motor too hard.

[Adz2332]

I'm finding him a bit irritating as a tuner from a few of the things you have mentioned about him haha. Chalk and cheese is funny, as a GT3076R from Garrett IS a HKS GT3037. Or the other way around if you want. Made in the same factory, same wheels and core. It'll spool the same-ish. The only reason there could be any varience is that HKS do 8cm/10cm/12cm style turbine housings while Garrett are .63, .82, 1.06 so they're on a slightly different scale.

Other than that, its all just looks (ie, HKS label on the compressor cover etc...). I vote the GT3076R, HKS GT-RS and GT3071R are right up at the max out area of their efficiency at 300kw @ wheels whereas as you say, its beneath a GT3076R. You don't want to be maxing your turbo out to make the power you want, a GT3076R spools fairly well still (.63 a/r is a bit snappy, but in a fun way haha) but has head room for if you do get a little greedy in future etc.

I would not go for a GT-RS for a 270-280rwkw R33, personally. It'd be working too hard and working the motor too hard.

ok so what would u recommend for a more relistic 260 - 275? on a safe safe tune and responsive?

[sl33py]

Edit: Just realised the Garretts are only sold as turbos by themselves and you need to get all the surrounding parts to suit. Regardless of which is 'better', this is an argument for the HKS kits in my opinion. While I've never been completely sold that Garrett or HKS is better than the other, it's seemed to me that once you add all the surrounding bits needed for a turbo, a Garrett isn't very far ahead in price (haven't done the numbers, but it's a strong impression I get from several posts I've read over time).

Anyway, I think I'll discount the 2835, cos I saw a post by grepin here

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...amp;hl=hks+3037

saying it was badly running out of puff at 310rwkw on 20psi. While I'm only going for 270-280, I don't want the turbo working too hard. So it's down to GTRS vs 3037! Just need to figure out how hard the 3037 kicks and how well it behaves on the street now.

Edited September 6, 2007 by sl33py

[Lithium]

Anyway, I think I'll discount the 2835, cos I saw a post by grepin here

[url="http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/index.php?showtopicsaying it was badly running out of puff at 310rwkw on 20psi. While I'm only going for 270-280, I don't want the turbo working too hard. So it's down to GTRS vs 3037! Just need to figure out how hard the 3037 kicks and how well it behaves on the street now.

OK a GT2835R is like an equivalent of a GT3071R from Garrett, more or less the same thing. It basically should flow a bit better than a HKS GT-RS, they use the same compressor but the GT2835R has a bigger comp housing and a bit more turbine wheel if I remember rightly. GT-RS will have much less lag than a GT3076R, but will be working hard to make 270-280rwkw. You are right about HKS being a good option given their turbos are a straight bolt on. From everything you say, I'd go for a GT2835 from HKS - pretty much a bolt on fix if I remember rightly. A GT-RS seems most at home around 250-260rwkw from the threads I've seen.

Garrett do an internally gated T3 version of the GT3071R and GT3076R, I'd be looking seriously at the GT3071R from what you've said.... I reckon it'd be really really well suited to it. With a .82a/r turbine housing it'd spool fairly quickly and smoothly, and should be able to do 300rwkw without TOO much more lag than a GTRS. You'll need some custom stuff made up, but its not a new manifold etc type situation. Cubes has done an internally wastegated Garrett GT3076R on his R32...

[sl33py]

I'm still liking HKS simply for nearly straight-swap factor. I wanna know more about how the 3037 would run, setup to for 270-280rwkw and on the street. I really don't want a turbo that's gonna kick out suddenly on me, I like a little linearity - think stock turbo linearity but just much more oomph through the range! How would I get that? Cams I think haha. Anyway, whose got a 3037? What boost are you running, how hard does it hit compared to a stock turbo? And how much laggier is it? I've seen the few examples I've been linked to, but would love a few more ppl's opinions, just in case the few examples I've got are odd ones out.

There's a graph somewhere, I've got it bookmarked at home (will update this post with it later), that shows a bunch of HKS turbos. The GT2835 and GTRS perform very well (with the GTRS having more torque earlier on, and more linear, and more or less the same up power up top). The GTRS also seemed to max out at a bit higher than the 2835, which runs at odds with the last post. I'd like to know where the 3037 would fit in the grand scheme of things. Unfortunately, the graph didn't say if it was on the same car, or boost levels, so I guess it's next to useless

[wolverine]

if you want bolt-on, HKS 2835 ProS fits the bill. still worth looking at a GT3071 or GT3076 as a comparison though

GT-RS will be a little short of puff but a great streetable turbo.

[Lithium]

The GTRS also seemed to max out at a bit higher than the 2835, which runs at odds with the last post. I'd like to know where the 3037 would fit in the grand scheme of things. Unfortunately, the graph didn't say if it was on the same car, or boost levels, so I guess it's next to useless

Have you seen higher than the 310rwkw @ 20psi mentioned in this thread for a GT2835 from a GT-RS?

[Bunta]

I find my 3037 with the .82 more linear than the Apexi AX53b70 p25 (Roughly a 2540 equivalent) it was all on low in the revs and wheel spinning crazily out of corners and it was tough to get it down smoothly. the 3037 is laggier but overall easier to get down

Oh and it made 303rwkw at 17psi