Need A Solid Opinion: Hks Gtrs Vs 3037 Vs 2835?

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

Ardie, you have a pm

[sl33py]

This is the graph I referred to earlier:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...st&id=16353

But now I look at JustJap, the GTRS is rated to 400PS (~294kw) and the 2835ProS is rated to 420PS (~308). So there must be some other variables involved with that graph which make it work out differently. I can't remember how I got to that graph link (waaay too much surfing, 100 firefox tabs at once, mostly SAU hahaha). Does anyone know who produced it, and why it might differ from what you'd expect going by the numbers? 2835ProS is back on the cards I think there's simply a "2835" kit and its in the graph, and the one seen on JustJap is the ProS? The Pro S is rated to 420PS (going by JustJap), but the "2835" is only rated to 380PS (going by http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/turbo/..._gt/ac_gt.html).

According to all the HKS power vs response graphs, the GTRS responds quicker, but the 2835 can do a bit more power, as shown here

http://importscene.com.au/prod792.htm but then THIS one (go to http://www.hks-power.co.jp/ then click turbos) shows the GT Sports kit Pro (the range the 2835 belongs to) as being better in power AND response.

The HKS ratings MUST be at the wheels, cos if you take the 2835Pro and go 420PS(308kW) x 0.75ish (drivetrain loss) = 230kw, but just going through the RB25 dyno thread, ppl have gotten anywhere from 220rwkw to 290ish! HKS must rate them for rwkw power... it's the only explanation.

But then some have pulled ~300rwkw with a GTRS on 1.38bar ... supposedly the lower power rated turbo!

Who reads Japanese? Tell me what the jap HKS site says I can't find much info on the USA HKS site

I know absolute power shouldn't be the deciding factor, but i don't want it to limit me to say 250rwkw... I could just go get a highflow if I wanted that. Which of these will give good response, smooth delivery, and torque I can use on the street (without the car going sideways all the time) and also at the very occasional visit to Wakefield?

[Kaido_RR]

gt2835 pros

i was making 251rwkw @ 16psi with stock cat full boost by 3200rpm;

had the normal mods: 740cc injectors, z32 afm, fmic, airfilter, pfc, full exhaust (apart from the stock cat lol), blitz sbc-id3, my engine is stock unopen and has done 125,000km+ and still going strong

my plan is to change my cat to something bigger and turn the boost up and aim for 400hp, if i cant make it there i might add some cams and few other bits to help it on the way lol

side note: i think 250kw is plenty of power, if i drive the car hard i can easily light up the rears on the street,

[WARLORD]

This is the graph I referred to earlier:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...st&id=16353

But now I look at JustJap, the GTRS is rated to 400PS (~294kw) and the 2835ProS is rated to 420PS (~308). So there must be some other variables involved with that graph which make it work out differently. I can't remember how I got to that graph link (waaay too much surfing, 100 firefox tabs at once, mostly SAU hahaha). Does anyone know who produced it, and why it might differ from what you'd expect going by the numbers? 2835ProS is back on the cards I think there's simply a "2835" kit and its in the graph, and the one seen on JustJap is the ProS? The Pro S is rated to 420PS (going by JustJap), but the "2835" is only rated to 380PS (going by http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/turbo/..._gt/ac_gt.html).

According to all the HKS power vs response graphs, the GTRS responds quicker, but the 2835 can do a bit more power, as shown here

http://importscene.com.au/prod792.htm but then THIS one (go to http://www.hks-power.co.jp/ then click turbos) shows the GT Sports kit Pro (the range the 2835 belongs to) as being better in power AND response.

The HKS ratings MUST be at the wheels, cos if you take the 2835Pro and go 420PS(308kW) x 0.75ish (drivetrain loss) = 230kw, but just going through the RB25 dyno thread, ppl have gotten anywhere from 220rwkw to 290ish! HKS must rate them for rwkw power... it's the only explanation.

But then some have pulled ~300rwkw with a GTRS on 1.38bar ... supposedly the lower power rated turbo!

Who reads Japanese? Tell me what the jap HKS site says I can't find much info on the USA HKS site

I know absolute power shouldn't be the deciding factor, but i don't want it to limit me to say 250rwkw... I could just go get a highflow if I wanted that. Which of these will give good response, smooth delivery, and torque I can use on the street (without the car going sideways all the time) and also at the very occasional visit to Wakefield?

i have a gtrs and it has more torque better response and smooth as delivery than any hi-flow only if you lived in sydney i would show you .so far everyone that's been in the car has been shocked.even the guy that built it and the guy's at maytek love it too but at the end of the day you should do what you wont ,pick the one you wont and stand by it or you will never make your mind up.

[sl33py]

740cc for 250-260? Isn't that high? Everyone I described my goals to said I only need 555cc...

Good idea, I'll try my local section and see if anyone has any of these kits installed that I can ride in. I'll (re)read your results thread WARLORD.

While torque and smoothness is important, I'd be cut as a mad snake if I bought one of these kits and it only got me 230 odd rwkw. There are ppl getting aroung with highflows with that kind of power for a lot less money. I know nothing is certain with these engines, but I would be haha I think it's only worth me getting a kit if it puts me well and truly in the 260-280rwkw area, OR if it will do the job MUCH better in some other way over a highflow. I think the safety of the tune and how hard the turbo itself will be pushed comes into it here...

While I go looking for locals with them, can someone tell me from personal experience how any two of these turbos compare on similar setup cars? I only need relative seat o the pants feelings, then I can figure out "GTRS tends to come on boost faster the 3037, but doesn't give a much power, and the 2835ProS takes a little longer than the GTRS to spool up (so.. less torque), but peaks out at higher kW, and at a lower RPM and on lower boost"... or something like that. I don't think many ppl in Canberra would have exposure to more than one of these kits. Going to a dyno day in two weeks, will see what the guys/gals there say too.

[Lithium]

...and the 2835ProS takes a little longer than the GTRS to spool up (so.. less torque).. and at a lower RPM ...."

Hey man - don't confuse slightly longer spool times with less torque. You will have less torque until its fully spooled of course - so strictly speaking maybe a bit less torque at cruise (<3000rpm) engine speeds, but thats why they are cruise engine speeds. Who races at <3000rpm?

Peak power should be reached at the same revs ideally, a bigger turbo can start making more power at lower revs if the smaller turbo is maxed out, or if the bigger turbo is running more boost though.

[wolverine]

i have a HKS GTRS on the stagea and it is a really nice bit of gear, it made slightly more power everywhere over a GCG hi-flow.

if i could chose again and money was irrelevant i would buy the HKS 2835 ProS to get the slightly larger turbine (56mm vs 53mm) and therefore slightly higher headroom but more importantly lower exhaust side restriction (efficiency improvement). there would be marginally slower spool (but a pretty close thing).

the cost differential is not small, so that would make it worthwhile looking at a correctly specced GT3071 or GT3076.

i bet you would be stoked with a HKS GTRS as it will (pretty much) do what you want for a much lower price than the 2835 Pro S and leave $1k in your pocket. (approx)

[sl33py]

Oops gotcha.

What about the HKS turbo ratings? They're at the wheels like I think, right?

[ardie]

When it comes down to it, you have said you want 280 rwkw right? The only turbo that is going to give you that power using sane boost is the 3037. I agree 110% with everything mafia has said. HKS = wank factor. Only reason I got an HKS turbo was because I got it at a cheaper price than the Garrett version, but then again that shiny HKS on the comp cover must give me at least 30 extra rwkw hey?

ALSO as others have said, FPR is not needed, it’s simply a bandaid fix for people on a tight budget who are looking to run just outside the tolerances of stock injectors.

Below are a few dynos I got for you, hope these help..............if they don’t I'm going to pull out my hair as I don’t think it could be any more clear. Plain and simple, better response with less power = GTRS. Slightly more lag but more power = HKS 3037. It’s the logics of turbo sizing.

Mafias Dyno - Garrett 3037 on 18 psi using (if I recall properly) stock engine running water methanol Injection, fuel system, exhaust and management (hope you don’t mind mate, that was just off the top of my head)

My dyno - HKS 3037 on 16 psi (drops a tad towards the end) on a stock engine with fuel system, cooler, management, manifold, external gate and straight through exhaust

Compared to WARLORD and Al with their GTRS. Both of them have cams and head work with warlord running a built engine. ALSO Al, haven’t you now switched to a GT30? If so he would be the man to ask as he has had experiences with both turbos on the same car/engine.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...t&id=113394

[The Mafia]

Clapsons dyno reads lower than your typical Dyno Dynamics dyno too.

Apparently 20rwkw lower...

[sl33py]

Wolverine, when you say 'if I could choose again' are you talking about with the Stagea, or with a R33 GTST? or would it count for both? Although I'm going to buy locally (for warranty and being able to just throw it back at someone and say 'fix!'), I'm using nengun et al for prices, and the GTRS kit and 2835 Pro S kits are only about 100 bucks difference, delivered. While I'm sure both will be at least 600-700 more locally, I doubt there's 1k difference, unless you know of a place that can sell for much lower on the GTRS than the 2835 for some particular reason.

"that would make it worthwhile looking at a correctly specced GT3071 or GT3076" - are you saying the HKS aren't correctly specced? Or that if I looked at those Garretts, I'd need to choose the right parts etc? These Garrett turbos don't come with all the associated kit... regardless of the price, I've more or less decided to get HKS something, mostly because they come with all the kit needed (so less install fee for me, no fabrication etc), plus just in case there actually IS something in the HKS over the Garrett. The latter is only a small part of it though, cos if the Garrett's included the full kit and HKS didn't, I'd probably just as easily go with them.

I think for simplicity's sake I'll just look at HKS from now on. So from what wolverin said, it seems the 2835 Pro S can give a bit more power than a GTRS, and the spool up time difference would be a tad longer but possibly negligible. OK, so where does the 3037S and (oh god, another model lol) the 3037 Pro S fit compared to the 2835 Pro S. Obviously more potential for power, they're rated higher. But If I'm aiming for an easy/safe 260-280rwkw, which will be better and why? I read some ppl like SydneyKid saying choose the turbo that will allow you to use the lowest boost possible to get the power you want, but then I read others saying HKS turbos prefer boost levels at the higher end of their operating range (or whatever the proper term is). The 3037 kits are ~$200 or ~$400 vs the 2835 Pro S, so they are definitely an option too if they will perform better for my particular aims.

Edit: I've removed the fuel regulator from the plan

Edited September 6, 2007 by sl33py

[sl33py]

OK ardie I've seen those dynos and read the corresponding threads.

I'm 95% interested in HKS purely because they come with the whole kit and kaboodle and my mechanic says he prefers to fit them cos they are easier with all the parts and no fabrication required. The last 3% is name and just in case they are for some reason better. So I'm mostly going off things like dyno's and ppl's experiences on here Don't think that I'm just going for the name, so no real need for the 'at least 30 extra rwkw' comment

I think it was the fact that I saw a few GTRS and 2835 setups running very close to 300rwkw that confused me a bit. I honestly haven't thought too much about the boost levels much, other than the point I raised above. Your dyno sheet looks good. I'm very interested to know what RPM your turbo hits when you've moved off from the lights and plant it in second, and also if it steps out unexpectedly (well.. I guess you'd be used to it now, but you know what I mean - will it catch me unawares during daily driving - btw I'm gonna do some advanced driver courses very soon before any power upgrades).

I also didn't realise the cams and headwork were possibly having so big an impact on their performance as you indicate. I won't be doing those things in the near future.

I guess the next question is, as above: difference between the 3037 kits, and which housing combinations to choose? I found this: the Pro S is internally gated. And something about the "anti surge comp housing" (beyond my technical knowledge now) is different too.

Edit again: found out that the 3037 Pro S version is (according to discopotato) designed to run specifically on the RB engine. The other versions aren't explicitly designed for it. At least, that's my understanding of this thread:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...howtopic=180172

Holy shamoly, Mercury Motorsport sell the 3037 for $6870! Nengun is MILES better. I wonder how close someone local could go. I'd guess about $3500 at best... how safe are turbo kits in the mail??

Bah... mind's in turmoil again: Just received a PM supporting the 2835 Pro S pretty strongly. They pointed out they I said I'm after maximum useable torque on the street and or track (if/when I go). Also said the GTRS will have a bit more low end PUNCH than the 2835, and significantly more than the 3037. They own a GTRS and said if they could choose again, they'd sacrifice a bit of low end (as said above, noone races/drives hard below 3K!!) and get a 2835 Pro S, as the middle ground I suppose. This also sounds a more promising choice now I've seen that the 3037 is definitely not in the same ballpark when bought from local suppliers. This thread has been very helpful so far Pointed out a few things I wasn't aware of!

Edited September 7, 2007 by sl33py

[Kaido_RR]

740cc for 250-260? Isn't that high? Everyone I described my goals to said I only need 555cc...

Good idea, I'll try my local section and see if anyone has any of these kits installed that I can ride in. I'll (re)read your results thread WARLORD.

While torque and smoothness is important, I'd be cut as a mad snake if I bought one of these kits and it only got me 230 odd rwkw. There are ppl getting aroung with highflows with that kind of power for a lot less money. I know nothing is certain with these engines, but I would be haha I think it's only worth me getting a kit if it puts me well and truly in the 260-280rwkw area, OR if it will do the job MUCH better in some other way over a highflow. I think the safety of the tune and how hard the turbo itself will be pushed comes into it here...

While I go looking for locals with them, can someone tell me from personal experience how any two of these turbos compare on similar setup cars? I only need relative seat o the pants feelings, then I can figure out "GTRS tends to come on boost faster the 3037, but doesn't give a much power, and the 2835ProS takes a little longer than the GTRS to spool up (so.. less torque), but peaks out at higher kW, and at a lower RPM and on lower boost"... or something like that. I don't think many ppl in Canberra would have exposure to more than one of these kits. Going to a dyno day in two weeks, will see what the guys/gals there say too.

740cc were the easy choice because they were only $20 more than the 550cc.

also did u read my post? i made 251rwkw @ 16psi with the 2835 pros, my tune was average and still running the stock cat lol...

full boost by 3200rpm with the 2835 pros, i have a friend who has the gt-rs and made 350rwhp @ 16psi and had full boost at similar stage then me, maybe 200rpm early if it even as that much.

also i can tell you now it wont make a different once your on boost its all over and it doesnt take long to get there....

i dont see why the 2835 pros would make less torque than the gt-rs? the difference in hp is only 20hp (what hks rated them at) do you really think it make that much of a difference?

[ardie]

Hahaha nah the 30 rwkw comment was aimed at me as I was never thinking of getting unit till this kit popped up, I was looking at going a garrett gt30.

As for all the talk of bolt up kits, if you can spin a spanner yourself the only problem you will run into is spacing on the manifold which means you will need a spacer plate, also you will need new lines (which many companies sell as kits), your dump will have to be modified which can be done by the local exhaust joint and lastly intake, which you can get the exhaust joint to knock up for you.

Here is a quick/rough price list just for you to mill over:

- GT30R from sliding performance = $1690 Delivered

- Braided line kit from horsepowerinabox = $285.00

- Modification for dump = around $100 ish (that’s actually a guess as I do all my welding/metal work myself)

- New intake pipe = $100 (my friend just had one made up by his local exhaust joint to suit his gtir for $70)

- Other Misc expenses (bolts, studs, silicone etc) = $300-$500

Rough total = $2600 ish

Bear in mind that is just a rough list and you can certainly get things cheaper if you shop around and pick up unwanted or used parts off forums which is what I did. If I have left anything out please feel free to add people, but if you look at that, I think the garrett is looking the goods. Just strap it all together and enjoy 280 rwkw hahaha

As for the driveability of my car. It hits full boost around 3500. In regards to how it hooks up, I'm probably not the best person to ask as my car is setup for drift so the rear is very rigid and isn’t suited to grip, however I find the power is very controllable so long as you don’t go planting when you shouldn’t. At the moment it fries all of first and second gears when I give it full noise and a bit of third, but when you ramp it onto third at high speed, it is AWESOME. Prime example was last night when I was going along a freeway with my mate in his 33. Identical setup to mine, both drift cars, both with exactly the same bolt ons except he has the 2835. He pulled away from me at first, but then when mine got on song I blasted past him. The way I look at it, more power generally = less response. There are a lot of intangibles that play their part in determining the degree to which this occurs such as comp cover, exhaust housing, manifold etc.

When it all comes down to it, the best way to solve this would be to go to an SAU meeting or cruise and ask ppl for a ride in their car, yes it will be embarrassing but it will definitely help you grasp the various advantages and disadvantages of all the turbo setups, plus when they aren’t looking you can raid their ashtrays for shrapnel!

Edited September 7, 2007 by ardie

[wolverine]

it doesn't matter whether it was a stagea or R33 IF money was no object i would choose the 2835 Pro S over the GTRS.

however, the pricing you are quoting isn't quite correct. (i think you are quoting the turbo on its own)

the GTRS kit from nengun is $2545.64 and bolts straight up to your dump pipe and has all lines, hoses etc. the factory heat shield can be modified to fit pretty easily.

the HKS 2835 Pro S kit delivered is $3234.78 including all water and oil lines, a new heat shield (from memory) and the HKS short split dump pipe (turbo won't bolt up to exhaust without it) which may mean you will need to get a new front pipe or modify your existing one.

the difference in price isn't quite $1k (apologies the price difference has narrowed a lot since i last looked) but it might need a little more fiddling on the exhaust side.

on the correctly specced GT3071 i mean one with a 60mm turbine. listen to the mafia on GT3076 selection.

Edited September 7, 2007 by wolverine

[sl33py]

Thanks for the suggestions re Garrett, but I'm way keener on a kit I can just give my mechanic and let him setup, even if it requires a little fiddling around on his part. I can't be a55ed chasing up the individual parts and I don't know enough to be 100% sure I'll get the right bits anyway.

Oops, right you are @ quoting just the turbine price.

I've got a single 3" dump pipe, guess my mechanic will have to change it for the 2835 kit.

[Michael]: yep, good point I didn't actually think cat's made that big a difference! I'm about to fit a Metalcat to mine and the mechanic said it's good for maybe 10rwkw. So I figured it was in the airbox/pod category WRT power increase (ie not much). Will get a better idea in a fortnight when I dyno the car and the only difference since last time will be splitfires, lightened flywheel and a new cat. Was 151rwkw, expecting MAYBE 10rwkw better at most from the combination. Any more and I'll be surprised!

RE 2835 making less torque, I think the person who told me actually meant a little more lag, not torque, you are right, there shouldn't be much difference and lag doesn't last long on any of these turbos really

Lithium: this is the graph that made me think GTRS had more power, I can't remember where exactly I found it, I bookmarked it and found it again at a later date haha: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...st&id=16353

I can now see that the 2835 is actually rated higher, and a few PMs and posts on here confirm that there must be something screwy going on with this graph, as it isn't representative of their power, if fitted to the same engine, same boost level etc.

I'm liking the sound of the 2835 Pro S the more I read. If as grepin said, it starts running out of puff at about 310rwkw, then it should handle the 260 or so that I (now) think I should aim for. If I can get more, great.

I've more or less settled on the 2835, I've got another question: I know higher boost is harmful to the engine, but what boost level is TOO high? Does it depend on the turbo? I reckon it DOES depend on the cooling and intake system at the very least, cos I've read many times that colder air in means u can use higher boost.

What level of boost do you reckon the 2835 will need to hit 260? If it does 310rwkw on 20psi, then maybe 15psi? Can it even be guesstimated like that, or should I shut up now and just ask my mechanic

Edited September 7, 2007 by sl33py

[Kaido_RR]

depends on alot of things, mine got 251rwkw with 16psi but like i said stock cat plus my tune was very average

i was told i can expected anywhere from 10-20+hp gain from changing my cat, so i say u should be able to make 260ish with around 15-16psi.

another point, the hks dump pipe which comes in the kit will bolt straight up to the stock front pipe, (im running a trust 3.5inch and it fit perfect)

my tune said i should be able to run up 20-22psi on the 2835 pros without any problems of course the more power the more stress you put on the engine but ive got my ebc setup for difference boost setting so 90% i drive around only running 12psi and it still got alot of KICK

[sl33py]

I see. I've already got a non stock dump pipe - I've got 3" from the turbo back, it's just my cat being replaced soon to a high flow unit. Does this mean I can't use the hks dump pipe if you say it fits with 3.5" ? Different size....

When you say "KICK" do you mean it steps out a lot, or you mean more like 'bang for buck'? (Can continue this in PM land if you like). I'm after reasonably smooth power delivery.

Interestingly, RMS just gave me an amazing quote for the GT2835 ProS kit (only a few hundred over the best "landed" price from an O/S vendor), but also said this is the only kit for the R33 GTST "at the moment". I assume that meants only "available" right now, cos nengun has 3037 kits and GTRS kits listed.

[fresh]

interesting thread, my GT-RS kit gets installed on tuesday with 740s, AFM and cams going in soon after.

[sl33py]

Cool fresh, let us know how it goes! What ECU?