Rb20det To Fully Modify Or Not To

[bLaQ.bOi]

i spent lots of time and money on th track, so please consider this advise.

dont waste another cent on the rb20. once you get out on the track and start getting confortable you'll just want your car to go faster and faster and you'll end up spending a fortune modifying evrything to make it track worthy. before you even realise what your doing, (catch can, fuel pump, brakes. tyres, cage,) you'll have ended up spending enough money to buy a repectfully modified r32 or even r33 gtr and still have plenty of change. a gtr, sorry to say, will rip the doors off any rb20 all day long around a track. ( i dont care how its modified) further they'll be far more enjoyable and rewarding to punt around a track.

it like first time snowboarders wearing all the crappy hire gear, as they learn, they buy all the good stuff to make the experience more enjoyable and also so they fit in and have the things all the other good snowboarders have. they same thing will happen to you when you get into trackwork with your car.

dont underestimate how much you end up blowing on the rb20 to make it reliable and ,as well as track worthy. 25k might sound alot for a gtr but you'll spend that much on the rb20 within 6 months of getting addicted to track days. trust me i know.

further, never underestimate how good a gtr is compared to an rb20 on a track. your loyalties to your beloved rb20 will dessert you real quick.

a great engine the rb20 is not. spend the money on a gtr, a sump baffle, good brake pads and a catch can and you'll never look back on your rb20. and you'll actually spend far more trying to make your rb20 half as quick around a track as a gtr then you would buying a used(slightly mofified) gtr.

ok so

youve all convinced me rb20 sucks lol im starting to figure that one out

i wanted to be "original" and have a quick car, but mind you i dont want i to be only for track, i just want to have a really nice setup car under my name...

i want to take it to the track as much as i can, but its all just for fun hey

question

if i put an rb26 in to an r32 gtst, do i need to get it engineered and is it illegal?

i mean poeple put 5 litres in thier vn exec's that they got from a vn ss

and its all fine and dandy

same thing should apply right?

[R31Nismoid]

You need to upgrade brakes, gearbox (maybe diff), and so on, then have it appoved by a VASS Engineer.

So, basically talk to the VASS first, and see what you need. You'll find a lot of things

[bLaQ.bOi]

lol whats vass, do they have a website?

i searched google this is what i got

<h2 class="r">Victorian Arabic Social Services</h2>

***edit found it

send an e-mail to a bill from eltham lol

Edited September 24, 2007 by bLaQ.bOi

[dmr]

ok so

youve all convinced me rb20 sucks lol im starting to figure that one out

i wanted to be "original" and have a quick car, but mind you i dont want i to be only for track, i just want to have a really nice setup car under my name...

i want to take it to the track as much as i can, but its all just for fun hey

question

if i put an rb26 in to an r32 gtst, do i need to get it engineered and is it illegal?

i mean poeple put 5 litres in thier vn exec's that they got from a vn ss

and its all fine and dandy

same thing should apply right?

most people will say rb20 suck because of their lack of torque, but they're a very strong motor for what they are.

there's not much originality slapping in an rb25 or rb26.. you'd be closer to being original by practicing on the track till you can beat those GTR's with your rwd rb20

note how much rb26's cost yearly to maintain.. figures that i have heard are close to 10k (correct me if i'm wrong)

and also note that for the price of dropping in an rb26 and making it run healthy, you would be better off selling your car and buying an R32 GTR.

my2c

[Roy]

ok so

youve all convinced me rb20 sucks lol im starting to figure that one out

Wrong...wrong, wrong. Please come to the track and have a look around. Speak to a few ppl actually doing track work. Even better PLEASE at least do a track day with your car as is.

...and this is going to sound like an asshole comment...but you are wasting your money putting a stock RB26 in your car... People with lowly RB20s with a turbo upgrade will blow your doors off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a look at the following results and tell me how you are wasting your time by keeping an RB20 in your track car

Winton Results at Dutton

So i came 15th out of 83 cars. My time would have been in the 1:36s if i didnt get held up behind a F430 Ferrari through the quick sweeper and for two slow corners. So that would have put me 10th or 11th...all with a completely std Rb20. It has a turbo setup and i have about $3,000 worth of suspension work, some 17x8 wheels with RE55s. The GTRs quicker then me all have 25k or more spent on them. Thats the usual story at most track days i do.

Sandown Results at Dutton

Here i came 18th with a time that is over 2 seconds off my best because i had a boot full of trolley jack, brake rotors and jerry cans (ie over 100kgs of crap)...plus i wasnt pushing it because i was crook. LOL hence the boot load of crap, i wasnt with it

But there is no reason why my car cant do a 1:21. So tell me how you are wasting your time with RB20 .

Fact is there are many things that make a car quick at the track

1. Driver

2. Tyres/grip

3. Suspension

4. Hp.

5. Brakes.

of course there is cross over amongst those...but its a rule of thumb.

So if your car already has a good fmic, good ecu, good suspension and well serviced brakes with good lines pads and fluid, and slotted rotors, and an RB25gearbox with a good clutch. Then an RB26 swap is still going to cost you over 10k by the time you have all the piping, exhaust and tune sorted. Then you will probably still be running std ceramic turbos which is never a good idea at the track...

And my parting comment will be hav a look at this....

STD RB20 with a turbo and ECU upgrade

Compared to a std turbo RB26 with Poncams, and same dyno and same tuner

As you would expect the Rb26 spans the RB20 down low, but in the rev range that you use at the track the RB20 punches well above its weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So please do your homework and be sure you are doing what you think suits you best. If its having a reliable car that allows you to cheaply get out there and have fun then....use the RB20. If you want to build a car that will allow you to mix it up and beat the quickest cars at the track then sure, do the RB26. I woudl love to see a sorted R32 out there doing that as i cant afford to take my car to the next step

So not trying to convince you one way or another... but from what i am reading i think you are about to head down the wrong path.

[Al]

ok so

youve all convinced me rb20 sucks lol im starting to figure that one out

i wanted to be "original" and have a quick car, but mind you i dont want i to be only for track, i just want to have a really nice setup car under my name...

i want to take it to the track as much as i can, but its all just for fun hey

question

if i put an rb26 in to an r32 gtst, do i need to get it engineered and is it illegal?

i mean poeple put 5 litres in thier vn exec's that they got from a vn ss

and its all fine and dandy

same thing should apply right?

Not sure were you got "rb20 sucks" from, but most of us are trying to save you alot of $$$$ and keep the rb20, at least till it blows (which could be a very long time).

I too considered putting an rb26 into my 33, when i blew the rb25, but that plan was quickly scrapped. The cost would have been more than building a very strong, race preped, rb30det. The rb26 conversion would have still left me with a std engine and turbos, that is prone to spinning bearings and blowing std turbos, on the race track. The end result leaving me in the same position as i started; having to pull the rb26 out again and rebuild it, which will cost another $7K minimum.

[Ronin 09]

that graph looks familiar, roy.

[Roy]

that graph looks familiar, roy.

Im not surprised...its about the best std turbo RB26 graph i can find

[battery]

RB20 FOR LIFE!

seriously I've been running 14psi on the stock turbo without an fmic for 1 year(20,000kms), bashing the limiter on a daily basis and it keeps on coming back for more. hell i have seen rb20s (block and head) go for $100 on ebay in running condition.

rb20 lag is overrated aslong as you can change gears you won't have a problem

i have had a few rb20 haters come for a drive in my clapped out 32 and afterwards they all agree that rb20 arent as bad as people make them out to be.

meh i guess the "rb20 hate" can be a good thing, more parts for me!

[R31Nismoid]

lol whats vass, do they have a website?

i searched google this is what i got

<h2 class="r">Victorian Arabic Social Services</h2>

***edit found it

send an e-mail to a bill from eltham lol

The guy in Braeside is more affordable if budget is tight.

I just used him and there was a $250 odd difference or so.

[nedi]

The things you talk about here are not realistic as far as ive seen.

Using Troys car as a real world example of the RB20/R32t, its cheap, reliable and affordable for the average punter.

When i say cheap, there is a bit of money spent on it of course, but thats nothing compared to a GTR. Not even in the ball park.

Let alone keeping a track GTR running in top condition which are much higher again.

The fact is, a 25k GTR (and a R32 GTR at that), isnt going to be withint a sniff of a 12k R32t with 10k spent on it. Not even close.

You'll have spend 10k on the GTR to get it upto a level where it would be faster, and thats not including the motor rebuild which is inevitable.

So whats cost more? The GTR. What will cost more to run? The GTR.

So is a GTR cost effective? Depending on your budget, probably not for most people.

I'd like to know who's stock R32 GTR would be as fast as mild modded R32/RB20. If you could provide names/cars/examples it would be appreciated.

Stat for stat, yes the RB20 has nothing on the RB26. But the reliability is there, and the cost savings are there... something you wont find on paper specs.

Mine, check out results at phillip island february last year on piarc website , 1.54 with standard intercooler, cheap coilovers (Jpc"s), cat back exhaust and pads worth $160 from howard at races brakes(fujimoto's not brembos). i spent a lot of time with john bowe insititute practicing at sandown but this was only my third time at phillip island. i was gearing down to fourth at turn one when i should have been in fifth so give back 2 secs there and give back another 2 seconds once i get to know the track.

we ran 16 psi boost so as not to stress ceramic wheel turbo's.

fact is guys, if you spend a few days with john bowe institute you'll outgro the rb20 real quick and then it wont be fun anymore. further if you shop around, you'll find a lot of r32 gtrs selling for 25K with all the expensive stuff already done, including bottom end work, which granted, is necessary for frequent track work-but this can also be said about the rb20. if you really want to make sure though,(my r32 has twin turbo 3 litre being prepared by jpc going in now) we can always find a bog stocker and meet down at the track to test it against the highly modified rb20.

and another thing, check out trackday results for maserati club, wrx club and piarc and you'll see properly modified gtrs blowing the doors off porsche gt3's and gt2's. dynamically speaking, the chasis in the gtr's is just as good around the track as a porsche ( dont laugh my other car is a porsche gt3 rs). John Kennedy is doing 1.16's at sandown in his r33 gtr on street legal r compounds he rips away from my gt3 down the straights and stays with it. actually, even goes faster, in the corners. -Give him slicks and he'll be midfield in v8 supercars and carrera cup. he spent possibly 30k on his engine build and is frightenly quick. you dont need to go that fast but 1.22 or 1.23 at sandown would not be hard to get in a gtr modified for reliabilty with little more than a well oiled forged bottom end (which will come with the car if purchased correctly) these times are still porsche gt3 quick and awesome fun.

I state loudly, even a rb20 with 20k spent on it will struggle to get near this time even with an experienced steerer.

weight is definately not an issue with a gtr, they are extremely agile and handle beautifully. they are not noticeably harder on there brakes and can be just as reliable as the rb20 if tuned properly. remeber most rb's have done taxi k's, engines are not meant to last for ever and most will now require rebuild. that shouldn't concern anyone, its more to do with age then fragility. most guys thrash their cars around all day with no sump baffle, catch can and 300,000km on the odo t then winge when they break it and accuse it of being unreliable. Its not bullet proof, but more than adequate to do the job.

i am interested to know the track times of the tuned rb20 everyone is talking about.

[nedi]

just so everyone knows, i'm not suggesting you convert the car to rb26, i saying you should sell the thing and buy a modified gtr-the real macoy.

you'll get all the mods for nothing. the gtr chasis set-up and driveline is just as important as the engine. i think converting your car to rb26 would be an expensively dumb idea.

[nedi]

Wrong...wrong, wrong. Please come to the track and have a look around. Speak to a few ppl actually doing track work. Even better PLEASE at least do a track day with your car as is.

...and this is going to sound like an asshole comment...but you are wasting your money putting a stock RB26 in your car... People with lowly RB20s with a turbo upgrade will blow your doors off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a look at the following results and tell me how you are wasting your time by keeping an RB20 in your track car

Winton Results at Dutton

So i came 15th out of 83 cars. My time would have been in the 1:36s if i didnt get held up behind a F430 Ferrari through the quick sweeper and for two slow corners. So that would have put me 10th or 11th...all with a completely std Rb20. It has a turbo setup and i have about $3,000 worth of suspension work, some 17x8 wheels with RE55s. The GTRs quicker then me all have 25k or more spent on them. Thats the usual story at most track days i do.

Sandown Results at Dutton

Here i came 18th with a time that is over 2 seconds off my best because i had a boot full of trolley jack, brake rotors and jerry cans (ie over 100kgs of crap)...plus i wasnt pushing it because i was crook. LOL hence the boot load of crap, i wasnt with it

But there is no reason why my car cant do a 1:21. So tell me how you are wasting your time with RB20 .

Fact is there are many things that make a car quick at the track

1. Driver

2. Tyres/grip

3. Suspension

4. Hp.

5. Brakes.

of course there is cross over amongst those...but its a rule of thumb.

So if your car already has a good fmic, good ecu, good suspension and well serviced brakes with good lines pads and fluid, and slotted rotors, and an RB25gearbox with a good clutch. Then an RB26 swap is still going to cost you over 10k by the time you have all the piping, exhaust and tune sorted. Then you will probably still be running std ceramic turbos which is never a good idea at the track...

And my parting comment will be hav a look at this....

STD RB20 with a turbo and ECU upgrade

Compared to a std turbo RB26 with Poncams, and same dyno and same tuner

As you would expect the Rb26 spans the RB20 down low, but in the rev range that you use at the track the RB20 punches well above its weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So please do your homework and be sure you are doing what you think suits you best. If its having a reliable car that allows you to cheaply get out there and have fun then....use the RB20. If you want to build a car that will allow you to mix it up and beat the quickest cars at the track then sure, do the RB26. I woudl love to see a sorted R32 out there doing that as i cant afford to take my car to the next step

So not trying to convince you one way or another... but from what i am reading i think you are about to head down the wrong path.

Please let us know when you actually do the 1.36 winton and 1.21 at sandown. you would've or should've doesn't count. winton is open almost every friday and you can wait til there is no ferraris' in the way. wrx club, maserati club, hsv club all do timed track days sandown, when you have emptied you boot you should give it a crack and let us know.

your dyno graphs mean nothing, any engine will produce those sort of power figures with a ridicolus 32.5psi boost. gtr will make those figures with 15 pound boost. we got 285rwkw with 16 psi.

Please let us know when you actually do the 1.36 winton and 1.21 at sandown. you would've or should've doesn't count. winton is open almost every friday and you can wait til there is no ferraris' in the way. wrx club, maserati club, hsv club all do timed track days sandown, when you have emptied you boot you should give it a crack and let us know.

your dyno graphs mean nothing, any engine will produce those sort of power figures with a ridicolus 32.5psi boost. gtr will make those figures with 15 pound boost. we got 285rwkw with 16 psi

Edited September 24, 2007 by nedi

[R31Nismoid]

Now now, i know all the people you speak of, and have for many years. So does Troy and a lot of the other users... and funnily enough most are avid readers/users of this forum

And really, using JFK as an example vs a RB20/Gtst isnt exactly fair.

Its a stripped GTR, with countless hours of suspension development and so on with Ben, and i tell you now there is more than 30k on that car.

Hardly a low cost operation that car.

Not sure where you get the "20k" figure from. We arent even talking 20k as you dont need to spend 20k on the gtst/RB20 combo to run 1.23's @ Sandown, 1.52's @ the Island. Its been done with a lot less than the figures your throwing around, which is still less than a R32GTR + mods to get to that point.

Feel free to checkout the track times thread, and you'll see the times they are running.

Also read some of the other threads, you'll find 250rwkw from the RB20 isnt being attained from 30+psi of boost at all. Its actually a lot less due to a bit of the good ole R&D

[-_-StRyDeR-_-]

first thing i dont think you should have taken out a loan from the bank to mod your car...

next thing, get out there in your rb20 and test it out, have some fun and get the experience you need.

then in a years time if you plan to stay with track work and your wanting more, then spend the rediculous amount on a rb26 or buying a GTR.

personally i wouldnt, (just me) i think being able to beat the guys with the bigger engine while still using a smaller engine is more rewarding then say a 300kw car beating a 180kw car :S...

[R31Nismoid]

Also, a bit more (was thinking on the train)

285rwkw, stock turbos, 16psi… Running a motor on the edge (as you are) also isnt a good idea.

Its pretty well documented now that once you push over 1bar in a track environment, the turbos don’t last forever, and the older the car the likelyhood of this is also increasing.

Also quite well know, once you kill a turbo, that’s motor rebuild time more common that not.

So anther 7-8k ontop of your 25k GTR, plus the turbos you might aswell do, dump, so on and so forth.

But im sure you already know that yes?

So suddenly the GTR isnt looking so cheap and its only modded with over 35k having to be spent (that’s including purchase price)

And the lowly gtst hasn’t even cost 25k (including purchase price) and is still running day in day out

If I was on a budget and couldn’t realistically afford 35-40k, but could afford 20-25k. I know the the choice would be.

[Roy]

I spent a lot of time with john bowe insititute practicing at sandown but this was only my third time at phillip island.

Can i ask what times you have done at Sandown with your lots of time practicing?

if you really want to make sure though,(my r32 has twin turbo 3 litre being prepared by jpc going in now) we can always find a bog stocker and meet down at the track to test it against the highly modified rb20.

Because i dont take anything serious and like a bit of shits and giggles competition...i will take that bet. PI is on in three weeks. I will be there Though my RB20 isnt highly modified. Its a std motor with a turbo and cam gears, with a well tuned Power Fc. Loser buys the winner a case of beer and has to put a demeaning sticker on there car for 30days . How about if i win your sticker says "My hand feeds have more pull then my RB26". And if you win my sticker says "If brains were dynamite, RB20 owners couldnt blow their noses "

John Kennedy is doing 1.16's at sandown in his r33 gtr on street legal r compounds he rips away from my gt3 down the straights and stays with it. actually, even goes faster, in the corners. -Give him slicks and he'll be midfield in v8 supercars and carrera cup. he spent possibly 30k on his engine build and is frightenly quick. you dont need to go that fast but 1.22 or 1.23 at sandown would not be hard to get in a gtr modified for reliabilty with little more than a well oiled forged bottom end (which will come with the car if purchased correctly) these times are still porsche gt3 quick and awesome fun.

Hey, im not going to change your mind...but have you actually seen JFKs car run? It has an aftermarket dog box, it was running Michelin slicks when it ran its PB, the thing has been on a healthy diet ... bbrakes the size of my wheels...my god its not typical GTR. Using his car as an example is as sensible as using Sam Markovs R32 GTR as what the average GTR can do.

Look at cars like JAGR33, Scotmans and Ferni and they are what i think are good examples of well modified GTRs. They are great cars, but dont underestimate how much these cars owe their owners

I state loudly, even a rb20 with 20k spent on it will struggle to get near this time even with an experienced steerer.

.

Fark oath it will struggle. You are talking about built RB26 engines with countless dollars spent on them with between 370-400kws at the wheel. The most you are ever going to sensibly get out of an RB20 is 310rwkws ... and then you will definitely need that 6 spd dog bog that JFK is running in his R33 GTR. I never said spend 20k on engine. You could spend 20k on the entire car and have a quick thing. My point is for the average guy wanting to get out there who has a GTSt, throwing away the RB20 is silly unless you have plenty of money. They are not the limiting factor if you want to go quick in a GTSt

If my RB20 goes bang at the next track (LOL, a real possibility) then i dont think anyone that has seen me run it is going to say it was a weak engine. I have ran 1.5bar in the thing for gods sake

i am interested to know the track times of the tuned rb20 everyone is talking about.

You have done 3 days at Phillip Island and have done a 1:54 with basically the same mods to your GTR as i have to my GTSt. In fact you have more power to boot Yet i am over 2 seconds quicker there my first time out. So if the RB20 sucked ass so bad then there would be no way this could happen

Techincally i have been to PI 3 times, but the first two times i never got to do a lap because of problems i was having with the car and didnt finish a session let alone the day. I have done one day at PI where i actually ran a lap in anger , even still because of the EPA i only got two sessions with the foot down. I bagged a 1:52.00 wiith plenty left in it.

Im not ashamed or trying to hide anything...here is my 2nd session where i did the 1:52 flat. Since you have done PI you will see my lines are screwy, gear selction wrong and the suspension really struggling

In the exact same guise at Sandown i did a 1:23.1. I had to work damn hard for that time as the suspension in my car was 7yr old Whitline shocks, not exactly a great thing for trying to go quick with semi slicks, and the car had a massive stability problem under brakes. If you watch all my vids you can see how much trouble i have slowing the car...and how ultimately a locked rear brake threw me off the track

My Winton time was 1:38.2. I think that is pretty respectable full stop. The fact that i got held up...well you dont know me so of course that could be an excuse...but there were plenty of witnesses and even ppl talking about it on the EVO forum.

Please let us know when you actually do the 1.36 winton and 1.21 at sandown. you would've or should've doesn't count. winton is open almost every friday and you can wait til there is no ferraris' in the way. wrx club, maserati club, hsv club all do timed track days sandown, when you have emptied you boot you should give it a crack and let us know.

your dyno graphs mean nothing, any engine will produce those sort of power figures with a ridicolus 32.5psi boost. gtr will make those figures with 15 pound boost. we got 285rwkw with 16 psi

LOL...mate relax. I am not for a second saying that an RB20 powered R32 GTSt is the ultimate track car. I am saying for the dollars they are hard to go past. The running cost and maintenence cost is pretty low to boot. You say GTR owners shouldnt be concerned about blowing a motor because its age related? I dont care if its because the tooth fairy disconnected the wastegate! 10k for an engine rebuild is enough to keep me off the track for 2years! So, looking at my budget and what i have to spend on having some fun at the track...i couldnt fathom running a GTR at the track. For the dollars i have i believe my GTSt is quick enough, and possibly quicker then a GTR of similar spend

Anyway, this is an interesting discussion...but dont misinterperet my advice for a guy that has never been on the track who currently has a perfectly ok R32 GTSt to "lets discuss what is the best track car in the world" discussion.

[Roy]

and nedi.... its all good fun and ppl are allowed to have different views. After all we are all creatures of our own experiences. LOL...you're my new Snowman with the challenge of "Talk to me when you do those times " I have had several kegs and cases of beers riding on these lap times and i am yet to lose a bet

Actually, JagR33 still owes me a case of beer for my 1:52 at PI and Snowy a keg when i did a 1:25 at Sandown my first time out Shits and giggles at the track is what its about. Not arguiing over the internet of what car may be quicker. Who cares...the ppl not out there are the ppl missing out on the fun, not the ppl going slow, fast, upside down Actually those hitting walls may not be having so much fun

[Beer Baron]

but this was only my third time at phillip island. i was gearing down to fourth at turn one when i should have been in fifth so give back 2 secs there and give back another 2 seconds once i get to know the track.

Please let us know when you actually do the 1.36 winton and 1.21 at sandown. you would've or should've doesn't count.

your're a funny guy mate.

so just to get my head around. you get off 4 seconds a lap cause you could've chosen another gear at turn 1 and you get another 2 seconds for lack of experience. everyone else doesn't. is that about right?

[Roy]

your're a funny guy mate.

so just to get my head around. you get off 4 seconds a lap cause you could've chosen another gear at turn 1 and you get another 2 seconds for lack of experience. everyone else doesn't. is that about right?

LOL...he is driving a GTR so his reasons are more valid then mine

And i did the same thing at turn 1 for PI. The fact that your 4th gear is much taller in your GTR to my GTSt tells me that there is no way you are going to gain 2 seconds just by using 5th through that corner. Definetly some time to be had but 2 seconds ??? Unless you know your corner speed was a lot lower then you know you can do, in which case that has less to do with gear selection and more to do with getting to know the track. But on that front i agree whole heartedly. You always go quicker when you get to know the track.

I am hoping for a low 1:50 in early October when i get back to PI, this time with no noise restriction