Tyre Wear - Bald At 6000km

[thedriver]

Hi,

I recently had new tyres put on all four rims of my 99 Stagea RS4S (19" Falken FK452 running at 40psi).

At the time, the tyre shop (Jax) was unable to do a four wheel alignment because my castor rods didn't allow enough adjustment. So five days later I saw a suspension shop which modified my castor rods and did an all wheel alignment. I had a toe of about +18 degrees on both front wheels before the alignment that they reduced to about +1.5 degrees.

[EDIT: Total toe was +18 degrees. Each wheel was approximately +9 degrees - see report in my post below]

I've since driven 6000kms in two months and both my front tyres now need replacing. They have worn past the tyre wear indicators on the outside of each tyre. My rear tyres are fine, they look like near new tyres. My last set of tyres lasted over 25,000kms of hard driving and didn't show the same wear pattern.

I went back to the suspension shop and asked them about the wear; they couldn't find any problems and suggested that because I had done five days of driving (about 300km) with the toe at +18 degrees the wear in the tyres continued after the alignment. They told me to keep an eye on it for the next couple of weeks and maybe swap the front and rear wheels. I didn't see the point in swapping the front and rear tyres; the fronts were already bald. Two weeks have passed and the wear is still continuing.

I'd like to know what your thoughts are on why this might have happened?

Also, who do you think should cough up the cash for two new tyres?

Thanks,

Tee

Edited September 24, 2007 by thedriver

[str00th]

both fronts bald in 6000k's hmm.... dud tyres?

[thedriver]

both fronts bald in 6000k's hmm.... dud tyres?

It's primarily the outside of each tyre that is bald, but they have definitely worn all over.

Should I be talking to the place I bought the tyres from?

[Duncan]

mate I don't like the chance of anyone paying for tyres but you.

Tyre shop won't, they will point at uneven wear and blame alignment.

Alignment shop wont accept $2k liability for a $50 job they did 2 months ago.

Fact is the falkens perform well because they are soft. I run the 451s and only get aout 20k out of them with proper alignment.

you need to buy new tyres, get the wheels aligned, and make sure you get a report of the "after settings" from the wheel aligner. If front toe out is more than 1mm you have a problem. If camber is more than say 2o you need to get that fixed too,

[n15m0]

I've had my set of Falken FK452s and have done close to 30,000ks on them and still have close to 40% thread and even wear all around...

Somethings definately not right with ur allignment.....

[Simon-S14]

I went back to the suspension shop and asked them about the wear; they couldn't find any problems and suggested that because I had done five days of driving (about 300km) with the toe at +18 degrees the wear in the tyres continued after the alignment. T

the fact they said this suggest they dont know what the hell they are talking about, try getting another alignment asap with another shop, leave the worn tyres on so they can view them and see whats going on, cause something is wrong with your set up

[BHDave]

Hi,

I recently had new tyres put on all four rims of my 99 Stagea RS4S (19" Falken FK452 running at 40psi).

At the time, the tyre shop (Jax) was unable to do a four wheel alignment because my castor rods didn't allow enough adjustment. So five days later I saw a suspension shop which modified my castor rods and did an all wheel alignment. I had a toe of about +18 degrees on both front wheels before the alignment that they reduced to about +1.5 degrees.

I've since driven 6000kms in two months and both my front tyres now need replacing. They have worn past the tyre wear indicators on the outside of each tyre. My rear tyres are fine, they look like near new tyres. My last set of tyres lasted over 25,000kms of hard driving and didn't show the same wear pattern.

I went back to the suspension shop and asked them about the wear; they couldn't find any problems and suggested that because I had done five days of driving (about 300km) with the toe at +18 degrees the wear in the tyres continued after the alignment. They told me to keep an eye on it for the next couple of weeks and maybe swap the front and rear wheels. I didn't see the point in swapping the front and rear tyres; the fronts were already bald. Two weeks have passed and the wear is still continuing.

I'd like to know what your thoughts are on why this might have happened?

Also, who do you think should cough up the cash for two new tyres?

Thanks,

Tee

Just a couple of observations;

none of the skylines (yes is know you have a stag but its the same basic setup) have caster adjustment from factory. It doesn't prevent the toe being set correctly. All jax would need to do is set front and rear toe, and rear camber. If the rest of the suspension is stock and in good condition then the factory range of adjustment is easily capable of getting the wheels straight.

When you had the caster rods modded i assume you shortened them. When you shorten caster rods you pull the wheel forward which due to the suspension geometry increases the amount of toe in. They would have then dialled that out with the alignment. You would not have been driving with 18mm of toe in prior to the caster rod mod. If you had you would have heard the tyres screaming when you were driving at 80km/h. And you wouldn't have had 18mm of toe in prior to having jax look at it or your last tyres wouldn't have lasted.

Out side tyre wear is an indicator of too much toe in (which is pretty hard to get wrong), positive camber (you would have been told about that, and the likely hood of both wheel having + camber is pretty remote as the stock geometry means you have a little neg camber), excessive understeer (which is a factory handling trait if you chuck it into corners too hot).

The solution is a second opinion on the alignment and condition of the suspension. If that shows all good then you need to look at how you drive your car (you mention hard driving after all).

I'd be interested to know what you did to the caster rods and why as well

[Simon-S14]

I'd be interested to know what you did to the caster rods and why as well

the only way i can think of is cutting them and rewelding them together..... dodgy stuff

[justin911]

maybe its rubbing against guard or something ?

[RazoR33]

Um.. just a thought, but could it be that after you've driven around with a massive camber of +18, the tyres have obviously taken a beating on one side, then once you had it aligned they are now wearing unevenly? I'm sure if you got new fronts with your current alignment they would wear properly and you'd see a decent life out of them.

Hey it happened to me so yeah... gl with it anyway.

[PT]

not too off topic but will uneven tread wear affect your wheel alignment, as in should you have fresh tyres/even wear on the car when you get a wheel alignment or will it not matter???

[Duncan]

No your alignment is your alignment.

But you can had a perfect wheel alignment but still have the car pull on eway or another due to the wear on the tyres

[thedriver]

Thanks for your replies and input everyone.

My main concern is I've only done 6000kms and they are well past the tyre wear indicators. That's not by any means normal wear and tear and I have been driving sedately. I haven't pushed it at all compared to the way I used to drive. And I really don't think I should be coughing up another $700+.

I believe the suspension shop is well respected in Canberra and they did give me a before and after report for the work; I'll dig it up tomorrow. I'm going back to them tomorrow morning so I'll get some more info from them then too.

The castor rods were replaced when I damaged one sometime ago. The suspension shop shortened them - I believe they were machined and the thread was extended to allow for more adjustment.

Another opinion is a good idea - I'll try and do that tomorrow too.

RazoR33 - however unlikely I think it is, that's one of the things the suspension shop suggested. I just can't believe that about 300kms would stuff so drastically shorten the life of the tyres.

I also emailed Falken Australia to see what they have to say. Maybe they can even give me a set at cost price. Thanks again all.

I'll update you tomorrow.

Tee

[thedriver]

Hi all,

I've had an interesting but overwhelmingly confusing day.

First up I have to correct a statement in my first post:

I stated I had +18 degrees of toe to start with. Well I actually had +18 degrees of total toe; each wheel was about +9 degrees toe (see attached "1 Suspension shop - Original.JPG").

So, on with the story... I saw the suspension shop this morning:

They rechecked the alignment and adjusted it a little (see attached "2 Suspension Shop - Adjusted today.jpg") - apparently it was still pretty good and they still couldn't see any reason why this had happened.

They did suggest the ball joint for my control arms may need replacing but had no evidence it was so. They suggested I get new tyres and go back to them in a week or two to have it rechecked.

So off to Jax to buy two new tyres and I ask them to check the wheel alignment. They tell me the left is +2 and the right is +10. Very different to the suspension shop. And they apparently correct it and set them both to 0 degrees (see attached "3 Jax adjusted after new wheels.jpg").

I decide a need another opinion. So I head to another Jax store in town and get them to give me a report (no adjustment) on the wheel alignment.

They tell me the front wheels are -1.5 and -2 degrees of toe (see attached "4 Jax report of alignment settings.jpg").

So now I've seen three different places and have three different reports on the toe adjustment.

Do you have any advice on who I should believe and what I should do next?

Should I get another opinion? Should I go back to the suspension shop with these reports and ask them to cough up for my tyres? Or should I wait a week or two and then go back to them and see what they say when they recheck them?

THANKS!

EDIT: I really need some advice on this - Thanks.

Edited September 27, 2007 by thedriver

[thedriver]

Hey all,

I could really use your input on this.

I'm not only pissed off about the tyres but also concerned about the settings. Who do I trust with the alignment (I can't keep buying tyres)?

[PT]

Looking at the last/latest report: if you want less wear up front, at the sacrifice of some turn in, you should aim for 0mm of toe, toe out up front on a daily will increase tyre wear as does too much negative camber (not that -1deg is too extreme). Your rear alignment seems fine and not too extreme.

It's bizarre there is that much variance when getting them rechecked

Just had my alignment done today, rear tyres have been getting raped on the inside due to having 12mm toe in (total) and -3deg camber.

I have gone what I'd consider a conservative set up as I do 3-400km a week and won't really get to the track more than once a month:

Front

toe 0mm

camber -1deg

castor 7deg

Rear

toe in 2mm

camber -0.5deg

will have to wait and see how tyres wear (Toyo T1R's less than 20km on them so haven't even begun pushing things yet)

Edited September 27, 2007 by PT

[Simon-S14]

it is also possible that your front bushes are that shagged, that when you get an alignment at once place the settings are all ok, but when you drive down the road everything moves and puts the alignment out. However for them to be that shagged one of the shops should have picked it up!

also you want 0 toe, or 1mm toe out, not 1 degree. Stick with 0 for now and see how you go,

Personally i would steer clear of franchise based shops, generally they dont know what the hell they are doing when it comes to imports or something other then a falcon or a commo...

Go to a specialist wheel alignment and susp shop. have a chat to them and show them your print outs. they should be able to offer some sound advice

[thedriver]

Go to a specialist wheel alignment and susp shop. have a chat to them and show them your print outs. they should be able to offer some sound advice

Thanks guys,

The first place I went to was a suspension specialist shop. That's all they do and they are apparently well regarded in Canberra. They killed my first set of tyres in 6000km and told me to keep an eye on it.

I don't know wo to believe anymore.

[An70n]

give me pictures please of what the wear is and a front end shot of the rim and tire le me see the angles, set the drivers wheel to straight and take photos of drivers && passenfers. pictures will help lots

btw i made a tire shop pay for 2 new fr19's with 2" of dish when i had 2 tires fitted and they gauged the dish on their machine, you could always just grab demo rubber from the front fo the shop asap like walk up take 4 tires and then sell it etc

[thedriver]

give me pictures please of what the wear is and a front end shot of the rim and tire le me see the angles, set the drivers wheel to straight and take photos of drivers && passenfers. pictures will help lots

btw i made a tire shop pay for 2 new fr19's with 2" of dish when i had 2 tires fitted and they gauged the dish on their machine, you could always just grab demo rubber from the front fo the shop asap like walk up take 4 tires and then sell it etc

Thanks An70n,

I don't have the tyres anymore, I've already had to replace them. I can check with the tyre shop though and see if they still have them; they were going to hold them for the Falken rep to check them out.

I didn't quite understand your last comment.