How can I get 50rwhp more?

[dabigbolf]

hows about timing on your car. good be seriously retarded.

but when you say hiflow, more details on what has been done to the turbo. there are hiflows and there are hilfows.

T3 with t4 internals. T3 front t4 back. And then just your mild t3 with some porting.

but always go back to the same dyno to compare.

[akeenan]

I ran 13.3@106mph with a 2.3 60ft, with an effective power band of around 4500rpm. Straight after I had it on the dyno ,not to look at my 'power' but rather determine a problem and it showed 230rwhp odd at 4500rpm.

Rev210.. So have you had u'r car on the dyno?

yes he has.

[rev210]

joel,

had the car on the dyno. to examine 'tuning' (what a dyno is for). The result of which was to see a ping irrespective of afr and timing occur at 4500rpm onwards. Hence the figure (that means little) or 230rwhp or so at 4500rpm.

MRK25T,

if you are happy with the way your car drives now for the $$ spent you really don't have a problem.

Steve,

You misunderstand me.

I am trying to point out that everyone has their car for a purpose or something they enjoy doing with it. Be that the 1/4 mile as I'm on occasion enjoying or the track or just plain driving around the street. I often talk about the 1/4 mile when the individuals are interested in pursuing this as a past time.

What people lack here is an understanding of what the dyno is properly used for and what it should not be used for.

The dyno is a good tuning tool, nothing else.

I can tell you that it means a hell of a lot more to me that my car is going quicker or driving nicer after a few $$ spent on a mod than whether I can see a gain on a dyno. The fact is you don't need a dyno at all to apreciate well spent $$$ on a mod. And so far I've never used a dyno to 'back up' my mod path, I use the seat of my pants and the occasional 1/4 time improvement (a personal goal).

My example is to make you think.

On the one hand I hear all these people say(all the time) " oh thats much too low a figure for your mods, your tuner must be crap" or " I've got 200rwkw and I've got less mods than you therefore you must have a serious tuning issue".

You know things like temperature affect power figures I'm sure. Did you also know that altitude and pressure, humidity and polutants also have a great bearing on power? Perhaps you do but, I can see that most have no idea. On the polutant side even the design and wind direction in a dyno enclosure will have bearing on power generation.

The dyno is a tool. So I think if we stop telling people to compare their readings people will not continue to be dissapointed and ultimately misled. In most cases I can jump in anyones car before and after a mod and tell you straight whether you pissed your money up against the wall, cost you a sixpack ($10) Vs $90 for a dyno power run. Something I'm not as good as a dyno at is fine tuning fuel and timing for incremental (and relative) power adjustment.

[T0nyGTSt]

A Greddy plenum is usually ~$1,750 form an Aust. dist. like Advan.

Closer to $500 off from a Jap. dealer.

Then maybe a few hundred on pipes to mate to your FMIC.

+ Labour

It's not worth it for the money but if you've run out of things to buy and want that cool look, it's the go.

I know I shouldn't buy one as I doubt I'll walk out the door with any change from $2,500 fitted but it's a weakness in me...

T.

[Cubes]

The point is a dyno gives a rough idea of what to expect performance wise from a car.

However its sole purpose is for tuning.

No point stating that dyno readings are meaning less as they arn't.

A 100rwkw car is not going to feel quicker than a 200rwkw car.

Either you car has the power or it doesn't and this is reflected down the 1/4.

Rev210.. Your 1/4 times when compared to others have a high mph which indicates that you have good top end which is helped by quick hard gear changes. Your 60ft time isn't the best.

There are freak R33's (95 models most probably) out there as just look at Buggalugs.

Making close to 200rwkw on a stock ECU running 10psi, Exhaust and FMIC. I believe recently he ran a low 13.

When I was running 12psi, stock ecu, stock ic, 3" from turbo back he was running 11psi, stock ic, stock ecu, exhaust turbo back I would pull on him slowly. I was making 152rwkw.

Some tuners tune the car to get max power at the expense of reliabilty so that one can brag..

i.e I managed 257rwkw out of the RB25DET where as you only managed 243rwkw. etc..

The above example is a real life senario that happened recently in SA....

[rob77]

I hope to have around 350hp @ wheels by the time I finish with my car. To achieve this I've got a trust td06-20g turbo and a wolf3d ecu to go on over the next 4 months or so (depends on how big the tax return is). By this time I expect my injectors to be running at 100% duty cycle so they'll need replacing as well given time. By the time I finish everything from go to whoa I expect my mod bill to look like $10k, that includes what I've done in my mod list below currently. The biggest stock turbo HP car in WA I've seen makes around 285hp @ wheels so if you want another 50hp ontop of what you got I'd hiflo the turbo.

[rev210]

Joel,

I don't think I said dyno reading are meaningless. They aren't because they are used as a tuning tool. Hence it might mean something to say ' Before I put on the spam ham hat my car had 120kw and on the same day after I put it on we got 140kw'. It might therefore be worth exploring the spam ham hat as a mod to improve power. It's pretty meaningless to quote them to others on the other side of the country as a one off.

[Steve]

Hi Rev, I agree in the many influences that can make a dyno readout vary greatly. Some people dont, and hopefully by reading in forums like this it might even help dispell some ignorance.

But I spose we are going to have to disagree, because I still believe that quoting dyno figures across the other side of the country is the only way to guage relative performance.

I am not talking exact numbers being gospel, but it is enough to let me know that someone with the same mods as me, plus a high flow turbo, who is making less on the same type of dyno than me (my car was tuned nose in to a workshop in the middle of summer during the middle of the day), is probably not getting all they can out of their setup. Generally as a rule, most people get around the high 100s to low 200s with cooler, ECU, boost and full exhuast.

I believe that I am right in saying that if you are getting on the low side of the above figures, and you have a highflow and supporting fuel system, then you sould be expecting more - everything else being equal.

Just about every performance shop in australia use dyno figures to support what the cars are capable of, or what sort of gains can be expected - it is about the only value that can be understood and quantified (roughly) between the coasts.

I do think bragging about dyno figures is a bit of wank, especially when you are talking only a couple of kw, but not so when you start talking large figures.

Here is an example to think about, if you had the choice of two skylines, both with the same wheels, same capacity engine, same gearbox and final drive, same driver, both started making boost at say 3000rpm, and had 1 bar at 4000rpm, but one put out peak 189rwkw at 6400rpm, and the other put out 289rwkw at 7200rpm, where would your money for line honours? If you picked the 289rwkw, then you will see the relevance of quoting figures, if not, you're a lost cause

[Cubes]

I've had my car on 2 different Dyno's and the power varied by 2rwkw. Both were Dyno Dynamics.

One was at http://www.dtperformance.com.au/ exhaust the other was at RPM Performance Center.

On D&T's performance www site the VT SS LS1 Auto made around 130rwkw stock.

[rev210]

Originally posted by Steve

Here is an example to think about, if you had the choice of two skylines, both with the same wheels, same capacity engine, same gearbox and final drive, same driver, both started making boost at say 3000rpm, and had 1 bar at 4000rpm, but one put out peak 189rwkw at 6400rpm, and the other put out 289rwkw at 7200rpm, where would your money for line honours?  If you picked the 289rwkw, then you will see the relevance of quoting figures, if not, you're a lost cause

You know the problem with this example is it doesn't tell you how well the power is put down or stopped (in whatever line honour race type you are thinking of).I'd put my money down on line honours for the car with the best allround racing solution, of which a dyno reading is just 'talk' when it comes to real racing.

the dyno in no way represents the actual flow of air over the car at speed (when all this power is being used) as such it is always 'just the begining' for setting up an engine tune for racing.Far more time is spent on real track tuning than in a booth.

I would like to say that anyone who buys a car off a dyno reading is seriously lacking in common sense. What really makes you decide on one car or another is how it drives.

Historically I seen so many wheel-dyno printouts that are dubious when compared to the cars actual go factor, that I simply don't place alot of weight in them. I am talking about me actually driving them not, slow due to driver etc. Not to mention the masses of #@$% idiots who have dyno printous and flash them around with comments like " you car does low 13's and my car has 100rwhp more than you so I'd do 11's". I mean even on this forum there is no concensus on what realwheel figure will give you this or that actual performance (it's all meaningless babble).

When a Dyno reading is used to 'talk' up a cars performance or lack of it ---

--- we know talk is cheap. Lets see if it goes because a fool and his money are easily parted (see refference to 'most performance tuners').

Enough of this. I'll agree to disagree with you.

For the rest: A car is quick because its quick and not because a of a stationary dyno reading.

[Cubes]

hehehe.... Rev210... You are definately strong headed...

Its a guide as its the only guide we can really use to get an idea of how a car will perform.

Sure the power can be fudged but any one in their right mind with a little bit of knowledge will know if the reading is 'around' the mark.

[Steve]

lost cause:p hehehe

[rev210]

Originally posted by -Joel-

hehehe.... Rev210... You are definately strong headed...

Its a guide as its the only guide we can really use to get an idea of how a car will perform.

Sure the power can be fudged but any one in their right mind with a little bit of knowledge will know if the reading is 'around' the mark.

Stubborn on this one, for sure mate.

If its a guide , I don't have a copy. If what your saying about it being a guide is true would you care to post 'the guide' so we can see how good it is. The fact is I'm not in my right mind and I have no knowledge.

I think if you look at the facts, there is no 'guide' to be found in peoples miss mash of dyno readouts. The only guide built in is whether a given mod will or will not improve power, relative to that day and car's readings before and after. The magnitude of the gain and the total amount of power quoted is moot.

[rev210]

Steve.

Yep I'm officially a 'lost cause'. I think because I've stupidly done everything myself for too long, I should have stopped at rebuilding 13B's but, no I had to keep on making life hard for myself. In the process I became able to tune things without using a dyno and do a better job than those that did on some occasions.

My best comeback is this....

For every 1 person like me there are at least 100 others who use the dyno , think the figures important, spend 5 times as much money for the same 'real' power and have their ass kicked by the that same 1 person.

13.3 so far buddy. Do you belong to the 100?

[Steve]

OK, let me be the first to bite:

R33, mods;

600 x 300 x 76 FMIC (hybrid)

Pod (K&N)

3" full exhaust (N1 type, cat in)

Power FC

EBC at 0.85bar

first tune 189rwkw - afm voltage peaked at 4500rpm

second tune 203rwkw with Z32 and non slipping clutch

as a guide

13.3 so far buddy. Do you belong to the 100?

Hope you didnt take my lost cause comments the wrong way, sorry at what was only meant as a friendly dig I didnt mean to offend. I agree with most of what you say, its just that I see another use for dyno figures, like Joel and others no doubt, beyond what you do - my bad

[B-Man]

Mark,

I reckon you just go for some bigger injectors and wind the boost up a little more - That will get where you want to be no problem at all.

Forget the Plenum, for the moment - it's a lot of money for only a bit of gain.

I share Blitz's thoughts too - be very very careful about who tunes it - they should have an outstanding reputation for tuning skylines.

As I have been reading and seem for myself first hand - When you go fiddling with too much more power, things can go phuuupppt.

Cheers,

[rev210]

Steve,

No offence taken, I've just been a bit of a cranky old bastard due to lack of sleep .

The before and after dyno readings, what did they do to gain extra power?

[Merli]

I'm eating Weetbix.