Need Some Advice, With My Turbo Situation

[Viper_r32]

hey guy's I'm just looking for a bit of advice concerning my current turbo problem

as some of you know earlier this year i got my stock turbo high flowed by a well known turbo company.

at first the turbo was fine, although i did not drive the car that often, when the car went in i had an oil change with motul full synthetic oil and within 9 thousand k's it had another 2 oil changes (so changed every three thousand)

the turbo died and was sent back to the turbo company with them notifying me that the turbo failed due to oil contamination. this sounded fishy due to the fact that i always keep the oil clean and even though the engine has done so many k's it still has full compression. i was told that they would not cover it under warranty but would give me special consideration and only charge me for the price of the parts to rebuild it. even though this was allot cheaper once you ad the cost of the mechanic pulling the turbo of and putting it back on again it was still a heap of cash i couldn't afford.

after scraping some cash together the turbo came back rebuilt with documentation showing pictures of what had happened to my turbo. the funny thing (that i did not pic up on at the time) was that the date on the pictures was stamped some month in 2004.

before bolting the turbo on my mechanic flushed all the oil lines and informed me that the oil in the lines was still clean and there was no sign of gunk metal or contamination. fresh oil was put in and the new turbo was bolted on.

to be on the safe side we disabled the boost controller and ran the turbo on stock boost to ware it in. i didn't drive the car much at all in fact within 3 weeks i only drove the car 100ks. not once did i even rev the engine past 4000k.

but 2 weeks ago the turbo died again.

i contacted CEFF11E to ask his advice and he suggested i test my oil pump to make sure it was flowing enough oil. i tested the oil pump and it was flowing perfectly so there are no issues there.

my mechanic is pretty busy at the moment and i have to wait a bit before the car can go back in to have the turbo fixed again, but i was curious if any one would have any ideas on why I'm having this problem.

could it be poor manufacturing, cheep ball bearings. or something else?

any one have any ideas!

Edited November 23, 2007 by Viper_r32

[Scooby]

Hi Paul,

that sucks big time. how long did you drive the car pre the hi flow? you drove the car for 9000 km OK with the hi flow first time, then it failed is that right? what is it doing exactly?

do you run a filter in line? you shouldn't have to but it eliminates one more factor, costs about $200 with fittings etc. do you have any more details on the inspection report ie what do they mean by 'contaminated' oil?

i've had recent experience with a very well known turbo company and i'm sure they fed me a line of bs re the turbos, offering to rebuild for the cost of parts alone.

cheers

[race_snooze]

ACCC.... Motoring ombudsmen, but make sure nothing you have done is incorrect first.

Thats shit though good luck with it all.

[Viper_r32]

Hi Paul,

that sucks big time. how long did you drive the car pre the hi flow? you drove the car for 9000 km OK with the hi flow first time, then it failed is that right? what is it doing exactly?

do you run a filter in line? you shouldn't have to but it eliminates one more factor, costs about $200 with fittings etc. do you have any more details on the inspection report ie what do they mean by 'contaminated' oil?

i've had recent experience with a very well known turbo company and i'm sure they fed me a line of bs re the turbos, offering to rebuild for the cost of parts alone.

cheers

yeah i owned the car for about 2 and a half years before i had the turbo high flowed. and the car has done about 40 thousand k's since i bought it in total.

the first time the turbo lasted 9000 km OK, but it did always make a whistling sound. that the stock turbo didn't make. i always just assumed that because it was a ball bearing turbo it would sound different from the stock.

the second time it didn't make that sound, but then it made the sound just before it died.

as for the oil contamination, they are not specific in the report at all. only the pics show images of metal shavings in the turbo, but they are obviously just from the ball bearings when they got shaved.

[Scooby]

i'd tackle them on it to be more specific re the possible cause. oil contamination does not sound right given that you've put 40K km on the car and had the last turbo for 9K km. it's true that the BB turbos can get starved much easier than thrust bearing turbos but the car and previous turbo have been reliable, and you've changed nothing.

you might like to ask them what they think about that. no doubt they will want to give you the 'benefit of their experience' but don't take any crap because no matter how big they are in the industry they can a) be wrong and b) still need to ask themselves how this could happen. there is nothing wrong with you saying to them flat out that oil contamination can't be the problem, it just doesn't make sense...so can they suggest something plausible this time.

what happens when you fit an oem part to your car that fails? it gets sent back for exhange unless there is some damage or clear fitting issue that has caused the problem. have a look at your warranty conditions and see what they say.

in my case they said it was wear - but they were R34N1s with minimal use, and actually inspected by the same place before purchase, which they forgot until i reminded them . then they asked me about an inline filter, so unfortunately they had one joker they could play. i wasn't running one but i am now so 'mysterious unexplained turbo failure' nonsense if there is a 'next time'.

if it's the turbo place i'm thinking of they have great difficulty accepting responsibility for anything. no doubt their tolerance has been diminished due to seeing more than their share of 'fully sick' types but it's their choice to work in that industry. if they want to gouge you by asking for more money then go for gold with the office of fair trading, make sure you can back things up with a statement from the person who has maintained the car and fitted the turbo.

cheers

[Frink]

oil contamination is the 1st thing they say and they almost always say it. they are just trying to see if you'll foot the bill instead of them. a few of the guys on here in the same situation got the same answer. maybe they can help you out in terms of what to do...

[Viper_r32]

all right on a side note i wanted to ask a couple of questions, I'm thinking worse case scenario here so just bear with me.

O.k. say for arguments sake that the reason my turbo keeps dieing is due to the oil pump. due low oil pressure the bottom end of my engine is worn and the bearing surfaces of the turbo are being scored due to lack of oil.. (just a theory)

First question, what would be the signs if this were the case? if low oil pressure was the case what would be the signs?

second question, how much would it cost for a complete bottom end rebuild, with top quality parts

as far as i know you can get a N1 oil pump for around $500-$600 dose this sound right?

third question, oil pressure what is supposed to be the oil pressure for an rb20 is it like 4 psi when the engines cold and 2 psi when its hot?

and if any one has any other info that could be useful

Edited December 2, 2007 by Viper_r32

[datto260Z]

I paid about $400 for my N1 pump, but i had to buy a collar and then have it fitted to the crank when the engine was apart, not sure for the RB20 though. You would more than likely have lots of metal shavings and shit in your sump, especially on your sump plug that should be magnetic if it was having bottom end dramas and also, it would probly be making a bit more noise than usual.

[mjfawke]

Is the replacement a plain bearing turbo, and if so - did you replace the oil line to the turbo to get rid of the flow restrictor?

[Viper_r32]

Is the replacement a plain bearing turbo, and if so - did you replace the oil line to the turbo to get rid of the flow restrictor?

sorry but i'm not shre what you mean by plane bearing? and integra never mentioned anything about a flow restrictor! what is it for?

[Viper_r32]

did a web search and i know what the restrictor is now. yes it has one on the oil inlet line!

Edited December 3, 2007 by Viper_r32

[mjfawke]

Two types of turbo CRH (centre rotating housing) - ball bearing and plain bush. Plain bush relies on oil pressure to build up a wedge of oil that keeps the parts separated (same as big end & mains in a car), while ball bearing just needs lubricating flow... hence the restrictor used with ball bearing turbos. Plain bushings and low oil pressure/flow = dead turbo.

[Viper_r32]

Two types of turbo CRH (centre rotating housing) - ball bearing and plain bush. Plain bush relies on oil pressure to build up a wedge of oil that keeps the parts separated (same as big end & mains in a car), while ball bearing just needs lubricating flow... hence the restrictor used with ball bearing turbos. Plain bushings and low oil pressure/flow = dead turbo.

cool thanks, i thoughts thats what you ment. its ball bearing.

[mjfawke]

So what exactly failed with your first turbo?

[Viper_r32]

So what exactly failed with your first turbo?

by the looks of the photos the bearings disintegrated and the impella jammed. but theres no way to know for sure, the turbo company is very vague in the report. all they say is that id died due to oil contamination.

[Viper_r32]

this time i think only the bearings have disinergrated!

[mjfawke]

Time to find a different turbo company...

[Viper_r32]

they are supposedly Trust Parts

what about oil pressure? what should it be hot and cold?

and if the pump was faulty would the oil get dirtier quicker? (just trying to explore all possibility's)

[Scooby]

what about oil pressure? what should it be hot and cold?

and if the pump was faulty would the oil get dirtier quicker? (just trying to explore all possibility's)

not sure for an RB20, but if it's a BB turbo it needs bugger all pressure to adequately feed the turbo. chances are if you're getting any register at all on the press gauge it's enough to keep the turbo happy.

faulty pump doesn't make oil dirty, the filter is still there unless your filter is so clogged it's bypassing, which sounds unlikely given your attention to servicing.

[mjfawke]

From memory, ~ 15psi at idle (hot) and the rule of thumb is 10psi per 1K rpm. Cold, it will peg the max pressure on the pump relief valve until the oil warms up.

A proper mechanical oil pressure gauge will tell you what's going on... except you won't be able to see the oil press in the turbo feed line.

I'd be wanting to know what was in the turbo housing - a proper lab analysis of the debris and dirt. "Contaminated oil" is a total BS excuse.