Car Fireball Yesterday!

[saff_cossie]

One thing I don't know if anyone has noticed going along that stretch and the other way too, the road is very undulating. I can notice it at 100kph so this would be compounded at higher speed and different wheels front/rear plus possibly stock suspension. Whether the car has become unsettled on those undulations or as he has gone to change lanes on them.

[SLYNE]

R.I.P to the 4 young boys

My Condolences go out to the families

[markk]

I work at the college that Peter and George went to and saw them nearly every day. Both very good kids and very level headed. Their mates are absolutely shattered about this.

RIP.

[funkymonkey]

yeah that stretch of road is pretty uneven... might be my stiff suspension, but I have to keep a firm grasp of the wheel while goin at even 100 on that lil section.

[saff_cossie]

yeah that stretch of road is pretty uneven... might be my stiff suspension, but I have to keep a firm grasp of the wheel while goin at even 100 on that lil section.

Yeah thats the same as me. We were talking about this issue tonight and at speed, I certainly think it would unsettle my car, especially if changing lanes. I used to drive that stretch everyday to work so have been in all lanes multiple times. City bound isnt much better either.

[madbung]

Tragic sad story, poor families.

I believe they were returning from a memorial service on the peninsula for that kid who drowned last week? (another who had no idea & jumped in anyway)

Makes that (assumed) kind of behaviour even more difficult to comprehend..why?

It's odd the calls for stricter licensing laws ie: passenger restrictions, power restrictions and even the Bikers worst enemy cable barricades are all being bandied around by the relatives and motoring bodies. Maybe better parenting would have been a good start...it's all easy to say in hindsight

Maybe the U.K model of power restrictions has some merit, it's been proven time and time again that you can't change attitudes or behaviour (put old heads on young shoulders) so maybe it is time to limit this kind of crap the only way possible.

[saff_cossie]

Maybe the U.K model of power restrictions has some merit, it's been proven time and time again that you can't change attitudes or behaviour (put old heads on young shoulders) so maybe it is time to limit this kind of crap the only way possible.

This was something I suggested a few years back but it must go deeper than just power restrictions, they are already in place. Hopefully this is seen as constructive on this type of thread. I am from the UK so have been through this and was never on P's here.

1. Paying for insurance is mandatory that is directly correlated to you and your car.

2. a 17 year old (age for full license and start learning in the UK) cannot insure anything bigger than a 1.2/1.3 litre car unless you are a pro footballer who goes through a specialist company and will pay up towards the value of the car for insurance

3. the driving test has a 40% first time pass rate because the examiners are stringent and the test is tougher

4. Greater mix of weather for experience, I learnt in black ice, freezing fog, snow, torrential rain over a winter (can't be helped if not available here)

It is illegal not to pay for insurance whether it be 3rd party, 3rd party fire and theft or full comp. Most companies won't insure a first time or young driver full comp for that reason.

For some reason people think a 3.8L falcadore is a good car for a first time driver. The biggest responsibility and speed most new drivers have come across prior to getting their licence is a push bike! Most havent come from motorbikes or karts or had any kind of hazard perception training etc. Allowing them access to a car of that size and power first time out, is crazy to me. That said the Australian car market because of the years of building large cars, doesnt have the second hand market of small cars to just turn something like this engine capacity rule on overnight.

I purchased a performance car at 18 after having my licence for 18 months in the UK which was a 1.6i (big for my age). I paid more to insure it 3rd party only at 1496pounds than the car was worth at 1100! It was still a front wheel drive car but the same as many young people I wanted it and paid the premium.

Most people are deterred by this pricing, hence why you end up with small engined cars with plastic stuck all over them and big sound systems as they attract a lower increase in premium than performance.

My point is, my first car was a 1.1L Ford Fiesta (similar to the Festiva but smaller engine) 1990 model. It was a 4 speed manual that try as I might on the UK motorways, wouldnt go above 80mph. Yes I made mistakes in that but never had an accident. It was essentially a lawn mower with doors that got nowhere fast but more importantly, it gave me mobility and the chance to gain experience in as lower powered vehicle as possible.

A good quote I read on the Herald Sun site, freedom comes before experience.

[Leewah]

RIP to the people who lost their lives in this accident. My deepest sympathies go to the families who have lost one of their loved ones.

My GF's sister went to school with the Overnewton students and she's pretty upset about the whole thing.

I still take the stance of people who drag race on public roads should be dealt with in the harshest manner possible if they get caught. Not only are they endangering their own lives but they are endangering others around them. It was unfortuante that this accident involved so many young lives and could have been easily avoided.

You may or may not know, I've started a group on Facebook called "Drag racing on public roads is for retards" and I encourage all of you to join it. Although it might not make a difference to how young people drive on our roads, it shows that people are truely concerned about their wellbeing and they may think twice before they try to do something stupid.

With enough people joining the group, it may be a small step to our governments taking extra measures to educate new drivers of the dangers of driving on public roads and enlighten them to safer environments such as legal drag strips and race tracks.

[madbung]

Good posts Saff_Cossie & Leewah..

Imformative and unbiased.

It's a very frustrating alright, even the current (untenable) restrictions aren't policed properly.

If the governing bodies were entirely serious about this issue they put in place legislation to make policing these problems easier.

First make it impossible/illegal for anyone on a restricted licence to register any vehicle outside of the guidelines, I would think this would be easy considering vicroads ect are a government agency.

Second make it illegal for insurance companies to insure a vehicle if the owner/driver cant legally drive it.

Third make it illegal for any car yard to sell cars that fall outside of the guidelines to restricted licence holders.

A few hefty fines to motor dealers and insurers would stop them breaching any new laws.

I doesn't help with the current situation re : 3.8ltr Falcodores ect as Saff_Cossie said...but atleast they could police what's in place more efficiently to start. I'm 100% behind the U.K model...it's simple and it works.

[nickcorr]

do you know that having two different size rims on your car is illegal and unroadworthy (although hardly policed), do you know that having more than 2 different treads tyre types on you vehicle is illegal (although hardly policed)...?? Put fopur stockies on your car and make it legal.

oh and just so you know before everyone says oh but what if you get a flat and use your spare (spares are usually the same size) and otherwise I can vouch for the fact that my parent car has had a canary slapped on it because it had 15" rims and a 14" spare.

Get your facts right before you jump in with both feet, zorb_rules.....

If what you say is correct, how do BMW and Mercedes, two of the "safest" and most legal car manufacturers in the world, get away with supplying cars with wider wheels and tyres on the rear, than on the front?

This is standard on certain, 1-Series, 3-Series, 5-Series, 6-Series, 7-Series and Z4 versions. All V8 HSV's. All Lotus'. All Mazerati's. All CLK's, most V6 C-Class, most E-Class, all SLK and SL-Class, 911's, 350Z's do I need to go on...

Lotus Elise and Exige, Chrysler Crossfire, Ferrari 612 and 599 all have different sized rims front and rear.

You will also find that our own Holden and Ford are fitting 16" steel wheels in the boot of the XR8 and turbo Falcons (18" wheels) and SS Commodores (19" wheels) without being illegal. Aparently a sticker saying "temporary", ooh just like my Skyline spare, is all you need.

Respects to those who died in this tragic incident..

And to agree with Saff_cossie, yes I am also a Brit, and on the 10 cars I owned there, I paid more for the annual insurance than I did for the car with 8 of them.. I think that the most extreme was, as a 30 year old, paying GBP 800 a year (AUD 2000) for a GBP 300 Citroen BX GTi.

As far as I am aware there is no restriction on what car can be driven on a GB licence (Bikes are limited though) but insurance costs and running costs are the self limiting factor... My 2.0 Capri with 102 BHP was real flash and fast for a 21 year old in the UK...

[madbung]

Actually Zorb is correct, differing tread patterns, differing dimensions like 17" on the front and 15" on the back is illegal, also changing the track (measured from the centre of each tyre) is also illegal. Cars from the factory with different width rims front and back are designed that way using the correct offset ect which maintains the track from front to rear......simple

Not quite the same as 17-215-60's on the front and 15-195-70's with different tread patterns on the back, just the difference in tyre sidewall flex should tell you something.

I enjoy your enthusiasm..........but you're incorrect.

Maybe you're getting rim width and diameter confused.

Edited December 12, 2007 by madbung

[saff_cossie]

And to agree with Saff_cossie, yes I am also a Brit, and on the 10 cars I owned there, I paid more for the annual insurance than I did for the car with 8 of them.. I think that the most extreme was, as a 30 year old, paying GBP 800 a year (AUD 2000) for a GBP 300 Citroen BX GTi.

As far as I am aware there is no restriction on what car can be driven on a GB licence (Bikes are limited though) but insurance costs and running costs are the self limiting factor... My 2.0 Capri with 102 BHP was real flash and fast for a 21 year old in the UK...

Exactly right

The car I paid 1496pounds to insure was a 1990 Ford Escort XR3i that for an 18 year old was flash and fast, even my 1.8L pinto Sierra was that I had after it! My cossie was 1300 pounds 3rd party only ($3200ish) but when I insured it here, it cost me just under $1000 as a Ford Sedan.

For this reason, as much as I think riced up lancers look shite (I own one!), I actually think it is better someone stick clear lights and a stereo in their car than have a powerful car for their first car.

Have joined Leewang's group too.

Appreciate the agreeance guys

[nickcorr]

Actually Zorb is correct, differing tread patterns, differing dimensions like 17" on the front and 15" on the back is illegal, also changing the track (measured from the centre of each tyre) is also illegal. Cars from the factory with different width rims front and back are designed that way using the correct offset ect which maintains the track from front to rear......simple

Given that track is measured between the centres of the tread width, as you said, and not from the outside shoulders of the tyres/wheels, there is no reason why fitting a wider wheel/tyre combo will effect this measurement. For example on a Skyline GTS-T on stock 16 inch wheels both 205 or 225 tyres are allowable as the track is unchanged. Fit 17"or 18" or 19" wheels designed for a Skyline to the rear and the track is still unchanged, even though the tyres might be wider, or not.... As long as the wheels have the same, correct, offset that places the centre of the tread in the same place, ie where the engineer designed it to be, the track is unchanged. A GTR with a pizza cutter space saver spare fitted, is unchanged in track.

The illegality maybe in the large difference between wheel diameter front to rear, but not that there is a difference. All the vehicles I listed only have a 1 inch (25 mm) difference in wheel diameter front to rear. But from the other list, some have over 3 inches (75 mm) difference in wheel width front to rear.

Fit a wheel with an incorrect offset, and yes the track will be messed up, but these are Commodores we are talking about. Correctly designed aftermarket wheels with the factory specificed offset abound. Even with alloys on the front and steelies on the back, the track is most likely unchanged from factory.

I think that this is enough on the perceived legalities of the car, and we should just leave it there.

[zorb_rules]

Given that track is measured between the centres of the tread width, as you said, and not from the outside shoulders of the tyres/wheels, there is no reason why fitting a wider wheel/tyre combo will effect this measurement. For example on a Skyline GTS-T on stock 16 inch wheels both 205 or 225 tyres are allowable as the track is unchanged. Fit 17"or 18" or 19" wheels designed for a Skyline to the rear and the track is still unchanged, even though the tyres might be wider, or not.... As long as the wheels have the same, correct, offset that places the centre of the tread in the same place, ie where the engineer designed it to be, the track is unchanged. A GTR with a pizza cutter space saver spare fitted, is unchanged in track.

The illegality maybe in the large difference between wheel diameter front to rear, but not that there is a difference. All the vehicles I listed only have a 1 inch (25 mm) difference in wheel diameter front to rear. But from the other list, some have over 3 inches (75 mm) difference in wheel width front to rear.

Fit a wheel with an incorrect offset, and yes the track will be messed up, but these are Commodores we are talking about. Correctly designed aftermarket wheels with the factory specificed offset abound. Even with alloys on the front and steelies on the back, the track is most likely unchanged from factory.

I think that this is enough on the perceived legalities of the car, and we should just leave it there.

Fair enough but I have studied this at some length after my parents canary and I would not make a comment such as this without first getting my information correct I do understand your point but i think your more focused on width rather than rims ize.. 17" Clubsport rims (i believe) on the front of a car and 15" stockies on the back can not make for a safe drive especially at those speeds and especially over undulating roads... It was just a comment I know exactly what you are saying.... and my point was more aimed at the reasoning of even having stockies and rims on your car.. rather than the legalities themselves.

And my fathers car a BA Fairmont was defected for having a spare on the officer said he had seen the car with the same wheel on for 4 consecutive days that it was a danger and the vehicle was given a minor defect notice (so clearly laws exist)..

I cant help but thinking the officer may have been talking crap but if you can issue a defect notice then so be it..

[candy33]

R.I.P for the 4 that lost there lives from this tragic accident, and i send my condolences to their family and friends.

I just happen to know the person that got their car impounded for driving next to the car that crashed. And having talked to him about it, he admitted they were racing on the down ramp after the speed cameras only for about (200m) and that the car with the 4 ppl was egging him on and kept accelerating even after he slowed down and were doing much more than the speed stated. When will people learn! ..there is a time and a place to do things like this, and it isn't on a busy public rd with a car full of passengers, a terrible waste of life in my opinion .

[Grant]

they were racing on the down ramp after the speed cameras only for about (200m)

If you believe that you'll believe anything.

It's a shame the f**khead driver wasn't in the car by himself, RIP to his passengers.

[crofte]

Very nasty indeed, i was working at the western general hospital at footscray the morning the bodies came in to the morgue. All reports were that the bodies were melted beyond a trace. RIP.

[33gtst]

Its a absolute horrible thing to have happened. But as long as there are cars, accelerators and drivers it seems things like this will continue to happen. I wished there was a simple solution. I really dont think the solution lies in taking away anything from younger drivers as most at that age tend to think they are above any rules and regulations. And could have a adverse affect.

I live in the area and will admit I was a little peeved (i hope this doesnt sound rude)that the area was all patitioned off well after the accident. And I dont know why it was? Does anyone know? I think things like this, although they might be nasty might make motorists travelling past think twice, and if it aids only one to step off the gas thats a good thing.

I would love to see the legal driving age decreased and mandatory extensive driver training for all those at the driving age, as well as an hours/experiance based lic system. Perhaps if they experianced loss of control, you know that one that makes your heart skip a little beat or too in a more controlled environment they might think twice before they attempt to drive beyond their limits.

I will admit I was horrible on the roads for many years when I was younger and to this day I cant tell you why, however after seeing first hand the spinal unit at PA hospital and the struggles people faced after road trauma, Im happy to putt putt along and save the fun for the track...nothing beats the adrenalin rush of the track. Maybe thats half the problem most of these kids have never been to the track, instead they whinge about it being too far or too expensive...what cost is greater than that of a life?

[J3TR33]

R.I.P to the 4 that passed away in the accident. Dreadful thing that shouldnt take the lives of such young people.

I dont think there is one solution to the problem of hoons and street racing. i think it must go to the heart and the mind of the young drivers. I personally think changing young drivers attitudes and the way they think about their cars and consequences is much better than just having P-Plate restrictions.

If there is high-powered cars there is going to be street racing and accidents like these. P-plate restrictions do help in stoping young drivers from driving high powered vehicles, but some just dont care about the consequences.

I think Education is the key. Educating young drivers on what could happen if you are driving at such and such speed, and that it doesnt take much for a car to loose control. Also having mandatory driving courses that P-plates must complete, i.e handling a car when it looses control will help change their perceptions and maybe not speed or do stupid stuff on the roads.

I personally am a P-plater, and cant say that i havent ever sped, but i can say that looking at the accident site does make u think twice before doing anything stupid in a car.

I hope that good things can come out of this dreadful accident, i personally think that Driver Education courses should be introduced in high schools and be tought at a young age and also having mandatory driving courses for learner drivers to complete before they get their P's

[zorb_rules]

One thing I dont agree with is.. is this whole high powered cars crap I mean are we saying now that if we ban younger drivers from driving powerful vehicles they are not just gonna jump in their lil 2lt putt putt machine and do the same things.. Im sure the banning of high powered vehicle is relevant.. but those who think its going to stop racing have another thing coming.

I mean heck ive seen nissan pulsars race ive seen suzuki swifts race.. and the can reach the same speeds high powered cars reach although just not as quickly.. but sometimes I think the damage done in a larger vehicle at 160km/h would be equvelant to what can occur at 100km/h in a lil putt putt mobile..

I think the easiest method here however unreasonable we all think it all is is to limit cars speeds to around 120-130km/h no car needs to go faster than that on roads anyway..

if for example you want to buy a high powered vehicle (high speed vehicl 130km/h+ you must get a permit for road and track use and as a part of this I think this should include driver training and the obtainment of the appropriate license i.e CAMS