Aircon Regassers In Melbourne That Use Hychill Hr12 Gas

[StreetR32]

Isn't this stuff flammable - why do I want to fill the front of my car with LPG? This stuff should be illegal I don't want anyone to crash with a condenser (sits in front of your radiator) full of flammable gas... It's thread is plain scary - save the environment - burn yourself to ashes... And yes I'm a ARTIC registered Automotive A/C Repairer..

[R31Nismoid]

From our point of view, it's not so strange that awareness amongst the general public is so low. We're a small Australian family company competing against the largest chemical companies in the world (DuPont, ICI etc). Before HyChill, they had monopoly control of this market. Monopoly control means financial control and information control. When these alternatives were first commercially introduced over a decade ago these big chemical companies lobbied industry and government heavily using half truths and blatant lies to try and scare senior management and political types away from these alternatives. They showed videos of cars blowing up and claimed this is what would happen if you used these alternative refrigerants. Really dodgy stuff... but most of the non-technical senior management and political types bought it hook-line-and-sinker. So even though a number of major vehicle OEM's have tested HyChill and their engineers love it, as soon as a proposal goes up the management chain it goes into a black hole.

Even if we had the money to do consumer marketing (such as TV), we'd only be encouraging these behemoths to respond, and they would do it with their usual lies and half-truths. The average consumer simply does not have sufficient technical background to discern who is telling the truth. A consumer marketing war would play into their hands. They would spend us into the ground.

Forgive the length of this response below. I just thought I'd err on the side of giving too much information as I feel somewhat of a moral obligation to get this info out there whenever an opportunity presents itself.

The fluid in an AC system has always been flammable. This is a common misconception which the big chemical companies feel no urgency to correct, for obvious marketing reasons. An AC system contains both the refrigerant (which is combustible) and the lubricant (which is also combustible).

The marketing 'spin' trick here by the big chemical companies is that their gases (like R-134a) fall into the "non-flammable" hazard class for storage and handling, and so by making the general statement that their gas is 'non-flammable', they leave people to make the (incorrect) presumption that there is no flammability risk in an AC system using that gas.

About the only thing that is true regarding flammability is that HyChill gas is flammable in under a somewhat wider range of circumstances than R-12 or R-134a. This results in a slightly higher flammability risk. However, a balanced assessment of all the failure modes and probabilities demonstrates that the overall risk is at least no worse with HyChill, or in fact slightly lower.

How could it be lower, you ask? Well, other stuff the spin-doctors won't volunteer to tell you is that R-12 and R-134a reduce into toxic chemicals, especially when combusted. R-12 combustion produces mustard gas (remember that stuff? It's used in chemical weapons). R-134a combustion also produces toxic products of combustion, but you don't even need to combust R-134a for things to get dangerous - it's toxic just to breathe in (causes trifluoroacetic acid to be developed in the body, which is not a good thing) and also produces a bunch of toxins when merely heated above ambient (and how hot is it under your bonnet?). It also produces acids when exposed to water (thus the need for a 'dryer' in your AC circuit, but these only reduce the problem rather than eliminate it).

If that wasn't enough, R-134a is so chemically unstable it can't be used with many standard lubricants, and the most commonly used oils used with R-134a are also toxic (not even skin contact is advisable).

HyChill refrigerant, on the other hand, is a naturally occuring gas that is non-toxic, does not form toxic acids etc if combusted, does not react with water and can be used with simple non-toxic mineral oils.

To put practical numbers on the flammability issue, there have been 15+ years of widespread and safe use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in place of the traditional ("fluorocarbon") refrigerants. During that period there has been over 20 million car-user-years of use of hydrocarbons in AC worldwide with not one recorded case of cabin fire or death resulting from use. During that whole time there has been only a couple of documented cases of engine bay fire triggered by an AC system failure. One was an R-134a system (as I said, they are flammable too). I'm aware of 2 or 3 AC system fires (in the engine bay) that were using hydrocarbons, one of which should never have been operated in the first place as it had an incorrectly installed aftermarket AC system and the other which was due to the service tech failing to abide by basic safety procedures. To get perspective: contrast this with, say, the fact that in the USA alone over 23600 vehicle fires occur due to crashes each year.

It's also helpful to understand that the typical AC system contains about 200 to 300 GRAMS (that is, a very small amount) of refrigerant gas in a completely closed system. Contrast that with the litres and litres of fuel and lubricant running all around the engine bay. The gas cannot spontaneously combust - it needs air (and not just any amount of air, it will only burn when mixed with air between 2% and 10% gas/air mixture) AND it must be ignited by a spark or flame of sufficient energy (for example, a lit cigarette butt is insufficient). So it has to leak out at just the right rate to cause just the right mixture, and just at the right time there needs to be a sufficiently powerful ignition source present. And also keep in mind that when it burns, it 'flashes' (burns and dies out very quickly), unlike petrol or oil which just keeps on burning.

Then there's the environmental issues. It is actually possible to roughly estimate the amount of person-years lost due to global warming. I did some work on it based on IPCC and WHO data, and in the year 2000 alone approximately 770,000 years of life were lost due to death and disease as a result of climate change proportionate to the climate impact of these fluorocarbons in that year.

Welcome to the world of multinational corporation spin doctoring!

If you have any more questions, feel free to fire away. We've got a whole bunch of documentation in our files, with complete references to independent publications on safety etc. (if 15 years of safe real world use wasn't enough).

PS - Skyline AC systems love HyChill! Both my R32 GTST and my cousins R32 GTR get vent temps of around 6 degrees!! Remember though, that if you're AC isn't working now, there's obviously a problem... it may be as simple as a slow leak requiring just a regas, but often it's something more. If it is something more, no matter what gas you use you will never get good results until the root problem is fixed. It's such a basic point, but it's surprising how often people (and even AC techs) forget this.

PPS - Conversions of R-12 systems to R-134a are not only a bad idea because they are expensive, but also because they just don't perform well after conversion. R-134a is a poor cousin (in performance terms) to R-12. They only forced it down the industry's throat because R-12 had to go (because it is hugely ozone depleting) and they had such mindshare control over the industry at the time that no-one in top levels of government and industry even knew at about other alternatives at the time. Simply put, convert an R-12 system to R-134a and you'll get crappy vent temps (especially on hot days)... all that money for nothing.

PM me your email address and I'll get Ross (or Vic region mgr) to give you a list.

Alternatively, you can call head office on 1300 HYCHIL (1300 4924455) and ask for Ross and he'll hook you up with a list of the nearest workshops that will help you.

Also note that skyline AC systems are nothing particularly special. Virtually all AC systems in passenger cars are essentially the same from a service point of view (with the exception of CO2 systems, which are still very rare and may never be widespread).

One last thing... HyChill HR12 is now called HyChill Minus 30. We've been a bit slow in updating our website.

Take it easy!

John

Technical Advisor

HyChill

[SS8_Gohan]

\ And yes I'm a ARTIC registered Automotive A/C Repairer..

sorry, which bit was the scary bit again??

[StreetR32]

Ha your kidding yourself, the oil has always been flammable but not the gas.. HiChill is basically LPG.. Each to there own.. If the government didn't have a point then hychill could sue under fair trade..

It works great, but will I have it in my car? No thanks, I don't want to be burnt because my ac leaked into the cab, or because my ac gas caused a fireball if I crash.. I've got enough fuel to worry about but I sure as hell don't store it in the very front of my car, or the cab for that matter..

Good luck guys I do hope you can find a non flammable alternative that's kind on the environment.

[SS8_Gohan]

This stuff should be illegal I don't want anyone to crash with a condenser (sits in front of your radiator) full of flammable gas...

Ha your kidding yourself, the oil has always been flammable but NOT the gas.. HiChill is basically LPG

Good luck guys I do hope you can find a non flammable alternative that's kind on the environment.

unless i'm missing something, you're making no sense and contradicting yourself...

[Miguelone]

LPG is basically LPG, station wagons often have the tank mounted in the cab and the fuel still runs the length of the car from the rear to the engine bay. If you're worried that much about one flammable gas on top of the rest of the flammables in your car you should really just ride a push bike or something.

[jukic.j]

Just for the sake of others. I emailed enquiring as to why Burson said they had no hychill but were listed as a distributor and got this response:

Hi Jesse

That's very strange. We sell thousand of cylinders through Burson Auto Parts. The Heidelberg store itself has sold way over a 100 Kg's of our refrigerant in recent times.

HyChill manufactures hydrocarbon refrigerant and sells it to distributors. Those distributors on sell the product to their customers. We don't have their customer list so it is a little difficult to say who exactly uses the product. I certainly have a knowledge of some workshops, but I'm not sure who in your area does. If Bulleen is close enough I can suggest some there.

John Newton

Manningham Car Care

(03) 9850-8222

25 Greenaway St, Bulleen

Wallard Automotive

(03) 9852-2109

40 Greenaway St, Bulleen

Bulleen Automotive Centre

(03) 9852 1000

1-3 Greenaway St, Bulleen

Hopefully they will be able to help.

Edited December 3, 2012 by jukic.j

[R31Nismoid]

unless i'm missing something, you're making no sense and contradicting yourself...

[xALmoN]

well the haloalkanes used as refridgerants are actually not flammable at all.

although, the liquid being aerosolised and burnt in your engine is actually a bigger fire risk than a small amount of hydrocarbon which would immediately dissipate when the container is punctured and vented.

[PENGUYEN]

well the haloalkanes used as refridgerants are actually not flammable at all.

although, the liquid being aerosolised and burnt in your engine is actually a bigger fire risk than a small amount of hydrocarbon which would immediately dissipate when the container is punctured and vented.

^Dat chemical engineer knowledge.

[Sunkist]

lol waiting for alvin, if its not flammable, he doesnt like it.

[Rolls]

Ha your kidding yourself, the oil has always been flammable but not the gas.. HiChill is basically LPG.. Each to there own.. If the government didn't have a point then hychill could sue under fair trade..

It works great, but will I have it in my car? No thanks, I don't want to be burnt because my ac leaked into the cab, or because my ac gas caused a fireball if I crash.. I've got enough fuel to worry about but I sure as hell don't store it in the very front of my car, or the cab for that matter..

Good luck guys I do hope you can find a non flammable alternative that's kind on the environment.

Ever carried a spray can or a deorderant can in your car? Because you are a f**king idiot if you have, imagine if you had a car accident and that can leaked the butane into the cabin, then imagine if it managed to spread perfectly with the air and reach the explosive limit and explode!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In reality what is most likely to happen is it would leak slowly, even if you did manage to rupture it badly it would dissipate very quickly, and in the unlikely scenario that it manages to mix perfectly with oxygen so it explodes instead of just makes a small puff of flame it still has f**k all energy in it, I would be infinitely more worried about what would happen to you if you had a car accident and say your head hit the steering wheel or a-pillar.

The safety is a complete non issue.

unless i'm missing something, you're making no sense and contradicting yourself...

He was implying that he hopes we can find a non flammable alternative to hychill and that only the oil is flammable in the RF12 whatever, I don't think he was contradicting himself.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Rolls

[jukic.j]

$150 is what I paid.

When did you pay $150? Just wondering if I should look for a place that charges that much or it has risen since.

I have been quoted $195, $200 and $220

Edited December 8, 2012 by jukic.j

[Miguelone]

I was quoted $80 last time I enquired about aircon gassing, that was through a mate though.

[Rolls]

When did you pay $150? Just wondering if I should look for a place that charges that much or it has risen since.

I have been quoted $195, $200 and $220

about 2 weeks ago

[jukic.j]

I'm getting reamed... someone hook me up, i'm in Melbourne.

also how long does it take for them to do? Is it like sit and wait kind of job or leave car job?

[R31Nismoid]

It's a few hours. But costs have gone up over what they were 6 months ago - thank Julia for that and move on.

$40 is neither here/nor there IMO.

[jukic.j]

Yeah been waiting for Monday to go to a few places and just making conversation and get more info in the mean time.

[jukic.j]

Cant edit so double post.

Did it for me, great guy squeezed me in on the day when I got there midday. $132 but the message of hychill did not transfer from receptionsit to mechanic and I ended up with R134a but I guess i'm justh appy to have it before driving away for this coming weekend.

John Newton

Manningham Car Care

(03) 9850-8222

25 Greenaway St, Bulleen

Don't do it anymore because not profitable enough.

Wallard Automotive

(03) 9852-2109

40 Greenaway St, Bulleen

Couldnt find them 0.0

Bulleen Automotive Centre

(03) 9852 1000

1-3 Greenaway St, Bulleen

[xALmoN]

I wonder if hychill are hiring chemical engineers.