2008 F1 Season

[Beer Baron]

Well, isn't that the biggest difference between a part time-know-nothing-muppet hack and 3 time world champion if ever I've seen one!

( lol @ the cheapness of Roy and his wine...sif not drink aussie wine mang. )

hmm muppet hack eh? that is a tad rich. there is a whole list of insults that could be levelled at you my friend but 99% of people on the forums wont post something they wouldn't say to someones face. I would wager you wouldn't tell troy to his face that he is a part time know nothing muppet, nor would you call him cheap so perhaps a little reconsidering of your on-line behaviour is in order.

also, it's becoming quite tiresome you constantly posting the same thing over and over again. I'll now refrain from any further debate with you on this as to be honest I'm completely sick of it. hamilton fked up, the stewards penalised him. that's it. end of story. deal with it and move on mate.

as for djr81:

"I dunno. I don't reckon you get to make an overtaking move & have anything in reserve. It just doesn't work."

you can in a Maclaren!

[dezz]

Jarno Trulli should have stayed out of this instead of getting involved in an incident he was in no way anywhere near to ( apart from what all of us and the rest of the world saw ), nor qualified to comment on instead of as another racer who knows as much about racecraft as the rest of us who do.

All he has seen is what all of us also saw.

It astounds me that he has spoken out in this way and no doubt many in the paddock will be equally as shocked.

Motivation? Who knows.

JT, there was no wall. There was no gravel. To argue that things might have been different if there were, is just conjecture and no different to the rest of the arguments raging around this issue. There was a corner LH thought he could take and it is clear he had the speed and grip to make the outside work but KR CLOSED the door. That is not the point here, is it?

He has added nothing to this argument other than the fact he is also an F1 driver nowhere near the incident, lapped and down at the back of the field.

JT, is just hypothesizing on an eventuality that never actually happened.

Its all hot air and ...actually...i have no idea why he thought he should wade into this.

Thats really strange.

I can't believe you just said that a current F1 driver has no idea what he's talking about in regards to a racing incident. Do you actually think before you post this junk or are you too caught up in your own emotion and love for Lewis that you just take to the keyboard...

See above Salad.

You tell me whos more qualified to judge and dont get into nationalities please.

Thats just pointless because if you are an F1 fan - a REAL F1 fan, you will respect SIR Jackie Stewart as much as the late Brockie, at the very least.

You would NEVER make a good steward simply for the fact that you CLEARLY let your emotions get the better of you. These guys act on the incident and the incident alone. Period.

As for Stewart saying what the stewards should have taken into account, that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read (and I've read all of your posts in this thread). I think it was Troy that pointed out already how stupid that kind of thinking is, but I'm sure everyone else in here could post up another 10 reasons why its ridiculous and not going to happen.

hmm muppet hack eh? that is a tad rich. there is a whole list of insults that could be levelled at you my friend but 99% of people on the forums wont post something they wouldn't say to someones face. I would wager you wouldn't tell troy to his face that he is a part time know nothing muppet, nor would you call him cheap so perhaps a little reconsidering of your on-line behaviour is in order.

also, it's becoming quite tiresome you constantly posting the same thing over and over again. I'll now refrain from any further debate with you on this as to be honest I'm completely sick of it. hamilton fked up, the stewards penalised him. that's it. end of story. deal with it and move on mate.

as for djr81:

"I dunno. I don't reckon you get to make an overtaking move & have anything in reserve. It just doesn't work."

you can in a Maclaren!

And some of us hold back in our posts due to their current warn level...

As for your second point, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one thinking it...although I'm pretty sure Marco mentioned it not so long ago too...

[Mika]

As for Stewart saying what the stewards should have taken into account, that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read (and I've read all of your posts in this thread).

JYS said that because it has been common practice in the past when the incident has had no bearing on the race result.

If the rulings were so black and white, Massa would have copped a time penalty 2 rounds ago for the pit lane incident. The stewards took into account that the infringement had no real bearing on the race result and issued the team with a fine. Same kind of situation is happening here.

[m3gtr]

hmm muppet hack eh? that is a tad rich. there is a whole list of insults that could be levelled at you my friend but 99% of people on the forums wont post something they wouldn't say to someones face. I would wager you wouldn't tell troy to his face that he is a part time know nothing muppet, nor would you call him cheap so perhaps a little reconsidering of your on-line behaviour is in order.

also, it's becoming quite tiresome you constantly posting the same thing over and over again. I'll now refrain from any further debate with you on this as to be honest I'm completely sick of it. hamilton fked up, the stewards penalised him. that's it. end of story. deal with it and move on mate.

as for djr81:

"I dunno. I don't reckon you get to make an overtaking move & have anything in reserve. It just doesn't work."

you can in a Maclaren!

All right.

This is getting personal. Richard, youre taking this too personally. If Roy didnt see the humour in my jest at the wine he drinks I apologize to him, i meant no harm - although something tells me he knew that.

I never called Roy a part time muppet hack, but i think the guys in the stewards box on Sunday were just that.

I dont really mind if you dont want to talk about this - i do, others do and we have a right to and that is what this thread and this forum is all about - discussion.

I dont get it - just because i strongly disagree with people, i should shut up and leave the keyboard alone?

Yeah, its funny. The guys in the stewards box are part time - they just rock up for the race and bam - the championship has been altered AFTER the race.

That stinks and should never happen.

By the way Hamilton did NOT f**k up and thats the way i see it.

Just sayin...

[m3gtr]

JYS said that because it has been common practice in the past when the incident has had no bearing on the race result.

If the rulings were so black and white, Massa would have copped a time penalty 2 rounds ago for the pit lane incident. The stewards took into account that the infringement had no real bearing on the race result and issued the team with a fine. Same kind of situation is happening here.

Spot on.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[m3gtr]

Look Richard, i tell you what.

Im gonna leave SAU and make it better for everyone concerned.

Seems to me to be the best bloody thing i can do to make this situation better.

[dezz]

JYS said that because it has been common practice in the past when the incident has had no bearing on the race result.

If the rulings were so black and white, Massa would have copped a time penalty 2 rounds ago for the pit lane incident. The stewards took into account that the infringement had no real bearing on the race result and issued the team with a fine. Same kind of situation is happening here.

The Massa incident didn't alter the race outcome.

The Hamilton incident did.

[Mika]

Apparently there's only one way, and it's the Ferrari way, so I'll leave this thread alone for now. But I'll be back with serves of humble pie later. Edited September 10, 2008 by Mika

[djr81]

JYS said that because it has been common practice in the past when the incident has had no bearing on the race result.

If the rulings were so black and white, Massa would have copped a time penalty 2 rounds ago for the pit lane incident. The stewards took into account that the infringement had no real bearing on the race result and issued the team with a fine. Same kind of situation is happening here.

What penalty. What incident? 2 races ago was Hungary & I can't remember anything being dished out?

[Roy]

I dunno. I don't reckon you get to make an overtaking move & have anything in reserve. It just doesn't work.

And hats off to him. But it was a gamble. So there is a price to pay if it didnt come off. You say that Kimi was compromised coming onto the straight because he ran wide in the right hander with Lewis being squeezed. Well, Lewis didnt pay any price for his gamble, He fot all his chips back plus interest and parked it in an ideal track position to attack at the very next corner.....when in reality the fumbled attempt and well defended move shoudl have had him a good 2 seconds behind. The fact that he would have bridged that gap easily means in retrospect he and the McLaren team were a little too trigger happy.

[Roy]

JYS said that because it has been common practice in the past when the incident has had no bearing on the race result.

If the rulings were so black and white, Massa would have copped a time penalty 2 rounds ago for the pit lane incident. The stewards took into account that the infringement had no real bearing on the race result and issued the team with a fine. Same kind of situation is happening here.

Hmmm, its an interesting one. How about we look at the Webber / Heikki incident. If Webber had spun the next lap and crashed because he was tryign to make up for lost track position, does that mean Heikki shoudl not have to serve a drive through? Its actions and consequences. I dont mean to make a paper thin argument, but if a guy leading a race loses 1st position with 2 laps to go then throwing caution into the wind punts it into a wall in slippery conditions tryign to bridge the gap.....well i dont think you can say that because Kimi binned it the passign move had no effect on the race result.

Hey, that could be viewed differently...but thats my take on it...it seems both perspectives have merit. Though i think the Heikki/Webber example highlights my concern over JYS perspective.

[Marco-R34GTT]

Apparently there's only one way, and it's the Ferrari way, so I'll leave this thread alone for now. But I'll be back with serves of humble pie later.

quoted...

[djr81]

And hats off to him. But it was a gamble. So there is a price to pay if it didnt come off. You say that Kimi was compromised coming onto the straight because he ran wide in the right hander with Lewis being squeezed. Well, Lewis didnt pay any price for his gamble, He fot all his chips back plus interest and parked it in an ideal track position to attack at the very next corner.....when in reality the fumbled attempt and well defended move shoudl have had him a good 2 seconds behind. The fact that he would have bridged that gap easily means in retrospect he and the McLaren team were a little too trigger happy.

It is hard to be adament about the whole thing. Which to a large extent is the issue. Presumably everyone wants to see hard, tough, tight racing with people having a go. The standard as it appears to have evolved subsequent to this decision becomes overly difficult for a driver to determine whether he is in the clear or not & hence the racing will suffer.

The sequence from what I remember was.

2 cars fired into the chicane. Lewis slightly ahead but on the wrong line. This enable Kimi to ensure he had to either go off track or back out of it. Given Lewis had point fk all of a second to decide I reckon he made the right call & I still doubt he could have backed it out - mostly because of Kimi's line.

Once back on the straight Lewis backed of & ensured he was behind the Ferrari & according to McLaren 6 to 7km/h slower than him. Now the point is arguable if this was sufficient. But given the circumstances & the extra grip available to the McLaren I would reckon so. Others don't which is fair enough.

I suspect a lack of traction or something else may have affected the Ferraris terminal speed. I mean the thing isn't short of hp & 6km/h takes a fait bit of making up in the time/distance left. People are trying to compare like with like ie assuming the Ferrari was on par with the McLaren at that point which IMHO they weren't.

The mess made of the race in the last laps makes I think the penalty rather disproportionate. LH loses 4 points & his chief rival gains 2 for a racing incident that did not affect the outcome of the event.

Here is hoping there will one day be something interesting to talk about in F1 other than FIA involvement. Nah, never happen.

Anyway I am glad no one called me a part time know nothing muppet. Because clearly I am full time.

[Roy]

Yeh, it will all be deabted again when we see who is crowned champion.

But i still want to know how McLaren can claim they know he was Xkm/h slower then the Ferrari? Do they have Ferrari data? It seems a bit , well a number thrown out there to appease the media and argument ?!?!?!?! And i woudl not put it past Kimi playign games down that return straight. He was in the leed, Lewis had just cut a corner....i wouldnt put it past any talented WDC to be pulling the chain of the guy behind when you know you dont have the car speed. ...that is pure speculation. But all Kimi had left in him and the car was smoke and mirrors...

Roll on McLaren being excluded from all practice and qualifying as the Italian Police search transporters after a tip that they are transporting illegal immigrants into the country with bellies full of drugs

[djr81]

Yeh, it will all be deabted again when we see who is crowned champion.

But i still want to know how McLaren can claim they know he was Xkm/h slower then the Ferrari? Do they have Ferrari data? It seems a bit , well a number thrown out there to appease the media and argument ?!?!?!?! And i woudl not put it past Kimi playign games down that return straight. He was in the lead, Lewis had just cut a corner....i wouldnt put it past any talented WDC to be pulling the chain of the guy behind when you know you dont have the car speed. ...that is pure speculation. But all Kimi had left in him and the car was smoke and mirrors...

Roll on McLaren beign excluded from all practice and qualifying as the Italian Police search transporters after a tip that they are transporting illegam immigrants into the country with bellies full of drugs

Seriously man. Such tip offs are supposed to be anonymous. Now you are going to have to think of something else.

[Beer Baron]

Yeh, it will all be deabted again when we see who is crowned champion.

But i still want to know how McLaren can claim they know he was Xkm/h slower then the Ferrari? Do they have Ferrari data? It seems a bit , well a number thrown out there to appease the media and argument ?!?!?!?! And i woudl not put it past Kimi playign games down that return straight. He was in the leed, Lewis had just cut a corner....i wouldnt put it past any talented WDC to be pulling the chain of the guy behind when you know you dont have the car speed. ...that is pure speculation. But all Kimi had left in him and the car was smoke and mirrors...

Roll on McLaren being excluded from all practice and qualifying as the Italian Police search transporters after a tip that they are transporting illegal immigrants into the country with bellies full of drugs

lol, you give kimi far too much credit for deviousness. though he has been seen hanging around that michael schumacher chappie.....hmmm.......

[bnr#@]

Think there is a good chance that the Mac will win their appeal, wether Lewis messed up or not left aside the Mac did ask race controll wether they were happy and were told all is good, they did everything they thought they needed to be in the clear as told by race control

[blackrex]

I think that McLarens asking of Charlie Whiting (not the right person anyway, he doesn't have the authority to make that judgement) if they had to redress the situation was what got them bought before the stewards, if LH had just done so without any questions being raised, then there may not have been a report made by CW regarding the incident.

[Roy]

You know adam, you really should lay off the stewards in here unless you have tried the job yourself.

These guys are expected to stay on top of complex rules, teams cheating to the maximum extent possible without getting caught every day, being provided with mounds of meaningless data to support arguments, teams turning up with lawyers to hearings. And on top of all that they are not allowed to watch the races - they can only act on the reports of other judges and any supporting evidence supplied.

So....if you care so much about the sport, go and volunteer as a trainee steward at a local event. Do a couple and then come and report back on how it felt to walk in their shoes. IMHO its a real bastard of a job and no-one will ever appreciate the decisions you come to, especially at national and international level.

And for what its worth, it is self evident that LH would not have been that close to KR unless he cut the chicane. But I think that point has already been done to death.

And as I said in my original post on sunday night....well done to LH to outdrive KR in the wet - he did a great job in those last 2 laps.

Oh and i will add

I didnt last 12 months as an offical (scrutineer) I hated it. Thelate night mid week before major events, the travel out of my own pocket and not seeing any of the action was only part of it. The biggest drawback was the politics and having to be the bad guy, not something that comes naturally to me. I was just glad i was only starting out and a grunt so the final say went to the Snr Scrut....but yes. Based on those brief experiences i tend to see things from their perspective as well, but doesnt always mean i agree with it.

But the point of a full time team of stewards at F1 rounds, hell i just assumed that was the case? Guess its not

[sh@un]

Think there is a good chance that the Mac will win their appeal, wether Lewis messed up or not left aside the Mac did ask race controll wether they were happy and were told all is good, they did everything they thought they needed to be in the clear as told by race control

v.interesting

so we should get a final decision in the next 48 hours or so?