2008 F1 Season

[hrd-hr30]

has very impressive records, but had machiavellian race-craft

will be remembered as fast, precise and merciless- but not a gentleman racer

just like Senna - "Nice guys do not win" , or words to that effect. Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet etc going back many years raced in the same uncompromising manner, which the PC era now seem to call 'dirty'. Hell, Senna even admitted to premeditatedly taking other people out as revenge for incidents that happened in previous years! the gentleman racer is a myth, or at least well and truly extinct

Edited April 8, 2008 by hrd-hr30

[ctjet]

(for example) Senna admitted to punting his team mate off the road and to hell with the consequences

Parking your car on a blind turn to block your competition because they have your measure and then have the audacity to claim innocence, is what you'll find jerks most people chains

We seem to have this discussion annually

Edited April 8, 2008 by ctjet

[Beer Baron]

I agree with harry. I've seen gentleman racers. they are all driving lotus cortinas in regularity and happily 'circulating' at about 2min10second laps at eastern creek. the guys up the front in F1 don't mind a little tappa tappa tappa, and will happily take people out if they think it will benefit them. and who's to say schuey didn't just stuff up and stall his car there? I think he was judged on past actions.

[Roy]

Right, yes 6 1/10ths...

Gee, i wonder where it went?

Alonso:

Maybe he took it back with him. Be interesting to see if McLaren continue to be line ball with BMW and behind Ferrari!

[hrd-hr30]

(for example) Senna admitted to punting his team mate off the road and to hell with the consequences

Parking your car on a blind turn to block your competition because they have your measure and then have the audacity to claim innocence, is what you'll find jerks most people chains

We seem to have this discussion annually

bet you don't remember anything else about that monaco race.

even IF it was deliberate, professional fouls occur in every other sport. I don't really see the difference, except with how much media hype surrounded that incident. professional sportsmen take every competitive advantage they can, and always try to stretch the envelope of the rules or what is considered acceptable. that was certainly the culture at Ferrari - you don't dominate the best part of a decade in F1 without stepping on a few toes. perhaps if <<insert your favourite driver here>> had been up the pointy end for half as long as Michael, they'd have had a momentary brain fade here or there along the way also.

strange perspective though - deliberately causing a crash at racing speed is not as bad??? maybe Schumacher should have slowed and waited for the potentially faster qualifying car and just ploughed into him deliberately and to hell with the consequences - then you wouldn't mind it so much eh? personally, I reckon you'd be screaming "attempted murder" along with the world's press. the power of a surname. or the way the media casts you...

Edited April 8, 2008 by hrd-hr30

[ctjet]

bet i do

And you cant possibly tell me that one basketballer intentionally slapping another on the back of the hand at the end of the fourth 1/4 'professionally' has the same consequences as one car hitting another at 100km/h+ (in quali mind you) on a track with no run off and completely surrounded by concrete barriers

ludicrous mate

Edited April 8, 2008 by ctjet

[hrd-hr30]

bet i do

And you cant possibly tell me that one basketballer intentionally slapping another on the back of the hand at the end of the fourth 1/4 'professionally' has the same consequences as one car hitting another at 100km/h+ (in quali mind you) on a track with no run off and completely surrounded by concrete barriers

ludicrous mate

see, you're just about turning this into the most dangerous thing ever. heaven help the man if he did half the things senna did.

umm - double waved cautions? if they hadn't red flagged the session by the time another car got there? and if the other drivers hadn't been notified by team radio. and after all that, if the drivers didn't see it in one of the championships slowest corners.

I just wonder why Senna deliberately crashing into someone at racing speed doesn't "jerk your chain" as much???

[ctjet]

Myths, legends and stereotypes dont become myths, legends and stereotypes for no reason. This is not an isolated case. There are a plethora of other examples that have been hashed... and re-hashed... about this and honeslty what are the chances that you're going to change my mind or conversely that ill change yours?

[ctjet]

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Edited April 8, 2008 by ctjet

[djr81]

Not sure how one person doing something wrong justifies someone else doing something wrong.

All of the great drivers were (are, will be) in no particular order, pushy, selfish, self obsessed, will push the rules to breaking point, will intimidate opponents & ultimately will (like most people) attempt to justify their behaviour simply because it aligns with their own self interest.

Think of the recent "nice bloke" F1 drivers: Zanardi, Berger, Patrese, De Angelis, Johnny Herbert, David Coulthard... Not a champion amongst them. Although Zanardi is a champion for many, many other reasons.

If you think back through all the champions for the last 50 or so years how many would you classify as nice blokes?

None of this justifies parking your car on the circuit to stop others out qualifying you anymore than it does running into other people. Although I would say that Senna's actions were much less cold & calculated than Schumachers. Or are we talking about Schumacher running into Hill and/or Villeneuve?

From memory the Senns/Prost thing (the mk 2 version, ie the one that was Senna's fault, not Prosts) was with Senna in a McLaren & Prost in a Ferrari. But I could be mistaken.

[ctjet]

Kimi Raikkonen has never... been pushy, selfish, self obsessed, will push the rules to breaking point, will intimidate opponents & ultimately will (like most people) attempt to justify their behaviour simply because it aligns with their own self interest.

and he's about to be a back to back champ

mucho respect

[djr81]

Good call, but it is hard to tell as he never says anything.

I think your call on this years championship may be a little early, however.

[hrd-hr30]

Myths, legends and stereotypes dont become myths, legends and stereotypes for no reason. This is not an isolated case. There are a plethora of other examples that have been hashed... and re-hashed... about this and honeslty what are the chances that you're going to change my mind or conversely that ill change yours?

I'm not defending his actions in that instance, merely pointing out that he wasn't any worse than many other drivers. Senna is just a convenient example. he'd have been much better served to have nudged a wall and caused some superficial damage rather than do what he did - would have been much easier to pass it off as an accident then. but when you make a rash ill-conceived decision in the heat of the moment in the cockpit of a car you probably don't think it through that clearly. at least this incident wasn't premeditated or endanger another drivers life.

[ctjet]

Good call, but it is hard to tell as he never says anything.

I think your call on this years championship may be a little early, however.

lol ture

for all his personal shortcomings, the guy is a legend... and like it or not, he is going to bury Hamilton into the ground in the not too distant future. Massa is the only guy on of the grid with any hope of stopping him. And on current form, thats not going to be to much of a challenge

Edited April 8, 2008 by ctjet

[hrd-hr30]

Kimi Raikkonen has never... been pushy, selfish, self obsessed, will push the rules to breaking point, will intimidate opponents & ultimately will (like most people) attempt to justify their behaviour simply because it aligns with their own self interest.

and he's about to be a back to back champ

mucho respect

give him time... I mean, its not everyday you see F1 drivers flipping others the bird on a track

[ctjet]

no no, not every day... just every second sunday

[djr81]

No but it is most days that you can see F1 drivers behaving like the PR trained automatons I suspect most of them to be. Alteast Kimi breaks that particular mould, albeit in a peculiarly Finnish way.

I am not sure carrying on like a pork chop in a car means very much either. Look at Nigel Mansells countless brain explosions & compare that to someone like Lauda or Prost. There again Niki had his share of brain explosions - like telling Bernie mid season he had had enough of driving. So Bernie signed some random called Nelson Piquet so I guess things worked out ok.

[hrd-hr30]

no no, not every day... just every second sunday

really? I've seen plenty of waved fists. that's got a particular meaning to race drivers. but only ever noticed one bloke give the finger to another driver. who was flippin the bird last weekend?

[djr81]

Hmm, I vaguely remember Barry Sheene giving someone a two fingered salute when he was on his motorbike.

[ctjet]

Im sure that if we watched the Barcelona GP purely through onboards, we'd see a lot more than the occasional bird flipping lol

I remember two instances this weekend of fist waving... Alonso was one, but i think that was more directed at himself and his frustration than the Toyota infront of him. The other escapes me