Gym And Supplement Discussion

[some_cs_student]

Fair enough that there may be no side effects (unless I spose you're having ridiculous amounts - but then again even water can kill you if you have too much... some guy died recently drinking 20L or something in one hit).

Although those guidelines are for the athlete and heaps of recent research (stuff of pubmed and the like) hasn't found any benefit to megadosing on protein.

I spose there could even be a placebo effect if you think that consuming more is better for you, but I don't think it's necessary to spend heaps and heaps of money on supplements, chicken breasts etc because the reality is we probably get enough from our standard diet.

Sure, while scientific research may show that 4g/kg or whichever measure your using is too much protein for the average strength athlete, every strong strength athlete I've met does take large amounts of protein.

Protein should be coming from food, and within reason of course.

One of the strongest guys I have met takes 400g/day of protein, nearly all through food, but then again he weighs 105 or 110kg and is over 6 foot

[TTT]

to the original question of getting bigger etc by ydutry4

so you've got yourself a diet, and a split training program etc.

and you've worked out how much cals are in what foods I assume and will measure it up to gert the right number of calories as you've been told.

but the fact is... if you ate 6 meals each day which had a chunk of meat and a bunch of veg, and washed each of those meals down with 500ml of full creame milk, and did 3 sets of 5 rep squats, 3 sets of 5 rep bench, 3 sets of 5 rep press, and 1 set of 5 reps deadlifts, 3 times a week you will get bigger and stronger.

now I don't have any science or menshealth links to prove this. and I'm not a bodybuilder in anyway.

let us know how you go after 8 weeks.

maybe take photos for your own benefit to judge how much you've changed in 8 weeks following the diet you've got and the split you are going to do.

Edited May 31, 2010 by GTST

[Tomek]

Protein does not matter as much as some think..

When trying to gain weight "over-all" calories is what counts.. have your 1g of protein per pound & with the rest of the calories play it smart...

Carbs for energy & their protein sparing properties.. saves you money as a bag of rice or pasta is dirt cheap. Fat for joint lubrication, proper hormone functions, sense of well being & of-course calorie filling. As a gram of fat is far more dense in calories then protein/ carbs (9 vs 4)

Edited May 31, 2010 by Tomek

[some_cs_student]

but the fact is... if you ate 6 meals each day which had a chunk of meat and a bunch of veg, and washed each of those meals down with 500ml of full creame milk, and did 3 sets of 5 rep squats, 3 sets of 5 rep bench, 3 sets of 5 rep press, and 1 set of 5 reps deadlifts, 3 times a week you will get bigger and stronger.

now I don't have any science or menshealth links to prove this. and I'm not a bodybuilder in anyway.

The PTC PPP program is a lot better than a 3 sets of 5 rep squats and bench / deadlifts. Even thought the 3 sets will work slowly.

Just FYI, I went from a 110 to a 115kg bench in 9 weeks, a 185kg deadlift to a 195kg deadlift in 9 weeks, and a 150 to a 155kg squat if 9 weeks. I'm working towards 120/160/210.

The PPP program does not apply to military press or other exercises, see the PTC link in my signature and drop an email if you want to buy it. Its $20, I highly recommend it.

That said, before using it you need to have decent strength in the first place, in other words your 1 rep max should be close to 100kg bench, 140kg deadlift and 120kg squat or similar

[NZM.031]

to the original question of getting bigger etc by ydutry4

so you've got yourself a diet, and a split training program etc.

and you've worked out how much cals are in what foods I assume and will measure it up to gert the right number of calories as you've been told.

but the fact is... if you ate 6 meals each day which had a chunk of meat and a bunch of veg, and washed each of those meals down with 500ml of full creame milk, and did 3 sets of 5 rep squats, 3 sets of 5 rep bench, 3 sets of 5 rep press, and 1 set of 5 reps deadlifts, 3 times a week you will get bigger and stronger.

what fact?? that is not a fact... that is a suggested training and diet program by you... you dont know his body type, his metabolism, his daily activities, his sleeping habits, his weekend habits, his training intensity, etc..

if i do that routine and diet... i will... get tired... get grumpy... have cravings... go down in size and also go down in weight lifted.. that is fact that i know that is for my body.. that training does not work for me.. my body cannot recover quick enough from a hard gym session in 2 days.. i used to do 5 days a week.. then i did 4, then 3, then i tried doing the same moves 3 times a week like you suggest.. combine that with the job that i used to have, being active and basically running around all day, and it was not at all working..

now ive settled on a 2 day split program and have a desk job and its working great...

dont knock everyone who has given him "advice" for him to choose through and make his own decision. and then come out and say that for a fact.. he will get bigger and stronger doing that routine..

[TTT]

what fact?? that is not a fact... that is a suggested training and diet program by you... you dont know his body type, his metabolism, his daily activities, his sleeping habits, his weekend habits, his training intensity, etc..

if i do that routine and diet... i will... get tired... get grumpy... have cravings... go down in size and also go down in weight lifted.. that is fact that i know that is for my body.. that training does not work for me.. my body cannot recover quick enough from a hard gym session in 2 days.. i used to do 5 days a week.. then i did 4, then 3, then i tried doing the same moves 3 times a week like you suggest.. combine that with the job that i used to have, being active and basically running around all day, and it was not at all working..

now ive settled on a 2 day split program and have a desk job and its working great...

dont knock everyone who has given him "advice" for him to choose through and make his own decision. and then come out and say that for a fact.. he will get bigger and stronger doing that routine..

ok chief.

I'll leave this thread for the pro's like yourself.

just remind me.

did you say you were 75kg and can't gain weight no matter what you eat??

[NZM.031]

gtst... how do you go from this...

who said anything about body builders or benching 130kg?

Adz suggested not to do front shoulder raises with heavy 15kg ones.

he suggested that people should "start with something lighter to build strength in the shoulder"

and you agreed that lighter weight with higher reps is what builds "Strength"

which basically means that you're both mororns, that know NOTHING about strength and should not give out such advice to general population.

if you think light weights for high reps builds "strength", you're wrong.

if you think DB front delt raises builds strength, you're wrong.

I feel sorry for anyone reading this shit who actually wants to get big and strong.

hopefully they've got the brain power to search "strength training" in google and find the right sites and info.

jesus christ.

if any of you cun7s were held responsible for your "advice", you'd be sewed over and over.

to this...

to the original question of getting bigger etc by ydutry4

so you've got yourself a diet, and a split training program etc.

and you've worked out how much cals are in what foods I assume and will measure it up to gert the right number of calories as you've been told.

but the fact is... if you ate 6 meals each day which had a chunk of meat and a bunch of veg, and washed each of those meals down with 500ml of full creame milk, and did 3 sets of 5 rep squats, 3 sets of 5 rep bench, 3 sets of 5 rep press, and 1 set of 5 reps deadlifts, 3 times a week you will get bigger and stronger.

now I don't have any science or menshealth links to prove this. and I'm not a bodybuilder in anyway.

let us know how you go after 8 weeks.

maybe take photos for your own benefit to judge how much you've changed in 8 weeks following the diet you've got and the split you are going to do.

ok chief.

I'll leave this thread for the pro's like yourself.

just remind me.

did you say you were 75kg and can't gain weight no matter what you eat??

and didnt you say you were no bodybuilder??? and that people giving stupid advice on here should be sued?? and how would old mate function if he just ate meat and veg and no carbs?? what if he follows your fabulous strength gaining diet and passes out during one of is heavy sets and breaks his ribs because you told him that eating meat and veg 6 times a day WILL make him strong??

i am no pro... i am a qualified PT but i dont work as one, and i am 75kg ringing wet... but i started training when i was 55kg ringing wet... its taken me 4 years and ive put on a solid 5kg of muscle each year.. this year i hope to get 80kg and next year 85kg and so on... building healthy lean muscle while maintaining low body fat and a year round 6 pack.. my weight doesnt fluctuate.. nor does my body fat..

[TTT]

but the fact is... if you ate 6 meals each day which had a chunk of meat and a bunch of veg, and washed each of those meals down with 500ml of full creame milk

you see no carbs there?

are you serious?

the milk alone has 140g of carbs

if he ate 200g of mixed vegetables with each meal that would be another 30g or so.

I didn't say eating the food will make him strong

I said eating the food and lifting the weights will make him bigger and stronger.

as a qualified PT, what advice would you give to someone looking to get bigger and stronger?

what has your 5 week course taught you that years of history hasn't proven?

as a 75kg 4 year veteran, what are your claims to strength?

how have your lifts changed in the 20KG of solid muscle you've packed on?

[IOWNU]

what fact?? that is not a fact... that is a suggested training and diet program by you... you dont know his body type, his metabolism, his daily activities, his sleeping habits, his weekend habits, his training intensity, etc..

With that sort of program, focusing on compound movements, it IS fact.

If you aren't recovering in a few days, you aren't eating enough. If you are a hard gainer, eating more means

eating a lot more.

[Birds]

Can we stop paying out on each others advice? It all works, one way or another. The reason there's so much argument in this thread is because there's no one way about doing anything and people seem to believe there is. Just give your advice to the newbies and let them pick whose lifestyle they want to try. If it doesn't work for them, it doesn't work for them...big loss.

You know what's funny? You can go up to two massive guys at a gym who don't know each other, ask them about their diet / exercise routine, and come out with two COMPLETELY different answers. There's no one way about doing anything.

There's so much conflicting research out there supporting all the different methods - everyone claims to have the perfect workout or the perfect ratio or perfect whatever. It's all self indulgent...bullshit, designed to make someone feel like an expert in the field and feed their ego. I cringe when I hear the words "most people do it like this...which is incorrect blah blah", usually said by a personal trainer on an ego trip. Those magic words make me cringe at the thought that this bastard thinks he's three standard deviations from the median.

You're better off on a journey of self discovery IMO...you're going to be spending years at the gym...you'll turn into one of these advice pedelling pricks once you discover what works for you too

[NZM.031]

you see no carbs there?

are you serious?

the milk alone has 140g of carbs

if he ate 200g of mixed vegetables with each meal that would be another 30g or so.

I didn't say eating the food will make him strong

I said eating the food and lifting the weights will make him bigger and stronger.

as a qualified PT, what advice would you give to someone looking to get bigger and stronger?

what has your 5 week course taught you that years of history hasn't proven?

as a 75kg 4 year veteran, what are your claims to strength?

how have your lifts changed in the 20KG of solid muscle you've packed on?

your taking the piss arent you?? seriously??

where is the fruit??? the fibre??? the pastas, the rice, the breads?? you seriously expect someone to eat only that much and feel full and go on doing normal day to day functions?? with no headspins... no cravings... and have some sort of energy to make it through the day??? your diet may be fine as a cutting diet before a comp but no way would i limit myself to just eat what youve suggested... his blood sugar levels would be all over the shop.. and here you are doing the same as you bagged everyone else for... what if the guy is lactose intolerant?? cant drink that much milk... oh, but gtst is the guru and goes against everyone else, so he must be right.. ill do what he says.

i have already given my advice to get bigger and stronger... i have had great gains in strength and have remained injury free.. im not strong, and im not huge, im not a body builder, nor do i wish to compete... i train to improve my quality of life... i can throw my bikes around better, i have more endurance... i can run faster for longer, i can pick a gearbox up now.. etc.. i dont care how much i can bench.. its all relevant to your size. rattling off weight numbers is like dyno numbers... and noone really cares about dyno numbers.

dont bring up history... i did that but you said not to... remember.. bruce lee proved strength does not require size... but noo... you mocked that because your ways are so much better... then you knocked isolation moves because they are stupid... but you are not a bodybuilder.. so what is your training program supposed to give the recipient?? just overall bigger mass?? bigger and better muscularity?? better vascularity??

so what are your claims to fame??

[IOWNU]

Can we stop paying out on each others advice? It all works, one way or another. The reason there's so much argument in this thread is because there's no one way about doing anything and people seem to believe there is. Just give your advice to the newbies and let them pick whose lifestyle they want to try. If it doesn't work for them, it doesn't work for them...big loss.

You know what's funny? You can go up to two massive guys at a gym who don't know each other, ask them about their diet / exercise routine, and come out with two COMPLETELY different answers. There's no one way about doing anything.

There's so much conflicting research out there supporting all the different methods - everyone claims to have the perfect workout or the perfect ratio or perfect whatever. It's all self indulgent...bullshit, designed to make someone feel like an expert in the field and feed their ego. I cringe when I hear the words "most people do it like this...which is incorrect blah blah", usually said by a personal trainer on an ego trip. Those magic words make me cringe at the thought that this bastard thinks he's three standard deviations from the median.

You're better off on a journey of self discovery IMO...you're going to be spending years at the gym...you'll turn into one of these advice pedelling pricks once you discover what works for you too

It does not ALL work.

Other then that, you raise valid points. I guess it is just annoying to see people who haven't achieved much themselves, forwarding crappy advice.

Be it at the gym, or in this thread, or life in general actually lol!

[TTT]

your taking the piss arent you?? seriously??

where is the fruit??? the fibre??? the pastas, the rice, the breads?? you seriously expect someone to eat only that much and feel full and go on doing normal day to day functions?? with no headspins... no cravings... and have some sort of energy to make it through the day??? your diet may be fine as a cutting diet before a comp but no way would i limit myself to just eat what youve suggested... his blood sugar levels would be all over the shop.. and here you are doing the same as you bagged everyone else for... what if the guy is lactose intolerant?? cant drink that much milk... oh, but gtst is the guru and goes against everyone else, so he must be right.. ill do what he says.

i have already given my advice to get bigger and stronger... i have had great gains in strength and have remained injury free.. im not strong, and im not huge, im not a body builder, nor do i wish to compete... i train to improve my quality of life... i can throw my bikes around better, i have more endurance... i can run faster for longer, i can pick a gearbox up now.. etc.. i dont care how much i can bench.. its all relevant to your size. rattling off weight numbers is like dyno numbers... and noone really cares about dyno numbers.

dont bring up history... i did that but you said not to... remember.. bruce lee proved strength does not require size... but noo... you mocked that because your ways are so much better... then you knocked isolation moves because they are stupid... but you are not a bodybuilder.. so what is your training program supposed to give the recipient?? just overall bigger mass?? bigger and better muscularity?? better vascularity??

so what are your claims to fame??

from your post, I can see it's of no use arguing with you.

Carry on.

I'll leave this thread

[Turk1]

Yep bodybuilding/training is a not just a sport but rather a lifestyle. Eating, training and sleeping are all factors. What works for one will in most cases not work for another. It's all about experimenting and THAT ladies and gentleman is what makes it just so damn interesting!

[NZM.031]

from your post, I can see it's of no use arguing with you.

Carry on.

I'll leave this thread

dont leave... lets just agree to disagree on this topic... and carry on with normal discussion.

everyones different and thats why the world is so interesting..

[Birds]

Yep bodybuilding/training is a not just a sport but rather a lifestyle. Eating, training and sleeping are all factors. What works for one will in most cases not work for another. It's all about experimenting and THAT ladies and gentleman is what makes it just so damn interesting!

Agreed. EXPERIMENT. Both in and out of the gym

[Pattygtst]

your taking the piss arent you?? seriously??

where is the fruit??? the fibre??? the pastas, the rice, the breads?? you seriously expect someone to eat only that much and feel full and go on doing normal day to day functions?? with no headspins... no cravings... and have some sort of energy to make it through the day??? your diet may be fine as a cutting diet before a comp but no way would i limit myself to just eat what youve suggested... his blood sugar levels would be all over the shop.. and here you are doing the same as you bagged everyone else for... what if the guy is lactose intolerant?? cant drink that much milk... oh, but gtst is the guru and goes against everyone else, so he must be right.. ill do what he says.

i have already given my advice to get bigger and stronger... i have had great gains in strength and have remained injury free.. im not strong, and im not huge, im not a body builder, nor do i wish to compete... i train to improve my quality of life... i can throw my bikes around better, i have more endurance... i can run faster for longer, i can pick a gearbox up now.. etc.. i dont care how much i can bench.. its all relevant to your size. rattling off weight numbers is like dyno numbers... and noone really cares about dyno numbers.

dont bring up history... i did that but you said not to... remember.. bruce lee proved strength does not require size... but noo... you mocked that because your ways are so much better... then you knocked isolation moves because they are stupid... but you are not a bodybuilder.. so what is your training program supposed to give the recipient?? just overall bigger mass?? bigger and better muscularity?? better vascularity??

so what are your claims to fame??

veggies = fibre

Anyways like others have mentioned different body types etc will get different results. All ill say is high protein/carb diet, creatine & compound weightlifting is the best place to start.

[NZM.031]

some veggies = some fibre yes.. but you'd have to eat alot

most fibre is found in cereals, wheats, fruit, nuts, and wholemeal foods..

[Birds]

It does not ALL work.

Other then that, you raise valid points. I guess it is just annoying to see people who haven't achieved much themselves, forwarding crappy advice.

Be it at the gym, or in this thread, or life in general actually lol!

Well I concede that there is some shit advice out there that most people can agree won't work, but in this thread I've seen alot of advice that has people divided on it and yet everyone seems to have valid points - it's just the difference in routines that is causing argument, my way is better sort of thing.

And I do concur that personal training is a very self-marketed role...you need to look the part for people to want to take your advice seriously. Even if this means nothing on a rational level, as a fat ass may know more about human anatomy and the workings of the digestive system than all of us put together - they just don't practice it. It's just a basic human instinct to mimick the actions of the successful, and rightfully so. But hypocrisy does not negate the usefulness of one's advice!

[dezz]

You wanna know what the real problem is in here? A small number of the posters posting in here, frequent the fitness section on NS.com. Over there, the majority of the regular posters are powerlifters, and many of them train at PTC in Frankston under Markos. There's no problem there, and anyone who does read the NS.com fitness section would know that there are some strong guys training there and achieving, as far as what they're after, great results.

The problem is that these same guys, have little to no respect for anyone who doesn't train purely for strength. They mock pretty much everyone else who's mantra isn't squat/dead/MP and eat. The typical topless guy at summadayze etc, they laugh at.

Now, I've been to summadayze, KMG, Future etc, and we all know there's plenty of guys there with their shirts off, some even train specifically for these events, so that they can get their shirts off and pick up, or just look good (in their opinion) in general.

To be honest, from what I've seen on NS.com, the bodies aren't something I'd aspire to personally. They might be capable of squatting/benching/military pressing and dead lifting big numbers, but from an aesthetic point of view, they're not what I and many others are after.

Now, no one is saying that they're wrong to train the way they do, but that doesn't mean that how they train is RIGHT, and how anyone else trains is WRONG. I'd much rather look like the typical 'gear head from summadayze' than the typical powerlifter on NS. They'd all laugh at that, and they do, the only problem is some people take it to heart, whereas I couldn't give less of a f**k what someone else thought of my goals if I tried.