Gym And Supplement Discussion

[bozodos]

I started doing Candito's 6 week program last week after nearly 2 years of various 5/3/1 variants, it's bloody hard work so far!

[Birds]

>assumes we all know who candito is

That a Mexican crossfitter?

[bozodos]

Jonnie Candito fairly well known - international level powerlifter with a fairly popular (and very good) Youtube channel. I suppose those who are into fake fed PL may not know of him.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CanditoTrainingHQ

http://www.canditotraininghq.com/free-strength-programs/

[jangles]

Fake Fed PL?

[Birds]

Jonnie Candito fairly well known - international level powerlifter with a fairly popular (and very good) Youtube channel. I suppose those who are into fake fed PL may not know of him.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CanditoTrainingHQ

http://www.canditotraininghq.com/free-strength-programs/

He seems pretty strong - do his programs cover supplementation etc. too?

[bozodos]

Fake Fed = non IPF 'powerlifting' federation. I'm sure all the GPC/CAPO lifters will beg to differ.

Birds I think he mentions 3 scoops of protein powder as a supplement per day - none of the top tier powerlifters I know are much into supplementation apart from eating right / caffeine. Especially since the onus is on the lifter to know exactly what is and isn't a banned supplement or ingredient.

[Birds]

Is IPF tested?

[r31slpr]

Ipf, winners tested after comps + some randoms I believe.

Gpc and capo, pretty much untested.

Boz will know the correct answer

[jangles]

Fake Fed = non IPF 'powerlifting' federation. I'm sure all the GPC/CAPO lifters will beg to differ.

Birds I think he mentions 3 scoops of protein powder as a supplement per day - none of the top tier powerlifters I know are much into supplementation apart from eating right / caffeine. Especially since the onus is on the lifter to know exactly what is and isn't a banned supplement or ingredient.

Wow. I was really hoping that wasn't your reply.

You pretty much just highlighted the problem people have with IPF.

I don't see how an untested fed is fake just because people are stronger than you.

I guess you think SBD sleeves don't give you anything over bare knees too.

[bozodos]

Testing in and out of competition, generally speaking it's the better athletes who get tested more often (it's random). CAPO and GPC are not tested at all.

As to why I have disdain for non IPF feds (and trust me despite being a PA member there are a lot of things about PA/IPF that piss me off too), I have the following reasons:

Use of monolifts for squatting, wraps for "raw", crap judging, specialised bar for deadlift (to allow more weight to be moved), foot and posterior placement on bench (as well as the judging). I won't get into the equipped side as I'm a raw lifter, but multiply does not compare to single ply.

I got sucked into thinking they were the "stronger" feds when I first started lifting, thanks to Markos spamming his videos endlessly. You can't compare across federations like that. I'm sure I could squat a shitload more if I was half squatting, not walking it out and wearing knee wraps too.

I find the drug use and promotion within these feds to be counter productive to making powerlifting a legitimate sport, and to be honest I would rather them direct non steroid using lifters to PA, but that won't happen.

Some people use the 'cheat' SBD sleeves by buying a smaller size, however the lifter has to be able to put them on unassisted. I have seen about a 10kg (dubious) increase in a lifter at my PL gym from using them. Personally I don't lift or compete with any kind of wraps or belt.

[jangles]

Testing in and out of competition, generally speaking it's the better athletes who get tested more often (it's random). CAPO and GPC are not tested at all.

As to why I have disdain for non IPF feds (and trust me despite being a PA member there are a lot of things about PA/IPF that piss me off too), I have the following reasons:

Use of monolifts for squatting, wraps for "raw", crap judging, specialised bar for deadlift (to allow more weight to be moved), foot and posterior placement on bench (as well as the judging). I won't get into the equipped side as I'm a raw lifter, but multiply does not compare to single ply.

I got sucked into thinking they were the "stronger" feds when I first started lifting, thanks to Markos spamming his videos endlessly. You can't compare across federations like that. I'm sure I could squat a shitload more if I was half squatting, not walking it out and wearing knee wraps too.

I find the drug use and promotion within these feds to be counter productive to making powerlifting a legitimate sport, and to be honest I would rather them direct non steroid using lifters to PA, but that won't happen.

Some people use the 'cheat' SBD sleeves by buying a smaller size, however the lifter has to be able to put them on unassisted. I have seen about a 10kg (dubious) increase in a lifter at my PL gym from using them. Personally I don't lift or compete with any kind of wraps or belt.

This is all that needed to be said before you called them fake feds. Markos only promoted the lifters he was directly involved with, he made that clear every time someone wanted to compare.

Everyone but the IPF bandwagon appreciate whether a Squat is Raw, Raw + sleeves or with wraps. None deny the fact they get assistance out of either, Unless they don't.

Posterior placement is open in all feds, just flat feet are required in IPF.

I think you're tarring Australian branches with the same brush as international feds that have questionable judging. I haven't seen many or any cases of high squats in GPC, just remember, the rule is the same.

As for drug use and promotion, I have never seen any Fed promote it.

How long have you been competing for Boz?

[bozodos]

It's disingenuous to say that a lifter of a certain fed is 'stronger' because they total more, when IPF is not only drug tested, but has the most rigorous and consistent judging applied to it. The rulebooks of most feds read the same, but you look at any video of a GPC / CAPO 'raw' squat, and you would probably get red lit in a PA comp. Same with the benching (bar bouncing off the chest etc).

There are some dodgy IPF lifts that have been white lit, but on the whole it is more consistent.

I've read a GPC lifter on another forum comment on how DBOL tablets were being passed around at one of their meets, as well as openly discussing his PED use - make of that what you will. Even if the management aren't openly condoning it, they're not denouncing it either.

I've been training specifically for (and at a PA gym) for powerlifting for a bit over a year now, for whatever relevance that has. I've no great love for how PA is run, but I would not join or compete in any other as a 'powerlifter'.

[jangles]

It's disingenuous to say that a lifter of a certain fed is 'stronger' because they total more, when IPF is not only drug tested, but has the most rigorous and consistent judging applied to it. The rulebooks of most feds read the same, but you look at any video of a GPC / CAPO 'raw' squat, and you would probably get red lit in a PA comp. Same with the benching (bar bouncing off the chest etc).

There are some dodgy IPF lifts that have been white lit, but on the whole it is more consistent.

I've read a GPC lifter on another forum comment on how DBOL tablets were being passed around at one of their meets, as well as openly discussing his PED use - make of that what you will. Even if the management aren't openly condoning it, they're not denouncing it either.

I've been training specifically for (and at a PA gym) for powerlifting for a bit over a year now, for whatever relevance that has. I've no great love for how PA is run, but I would not join or compete in any other as a 'powerlifter'.

Just because it would probably be red lit, does not mean it's not within the rules. IPF deny lifts that are well within the rules.

That's a GPC lifter. I'm sure no IPF lifter is going to openly discuss any usage. Just as a murderer wouldn't openly discuss their victims.

Some very strong lifters wish to compete outside of IPF, but cannot. That is a ridiculous rule. They aren't going to get heaps of gains if someone sneezes on them.

Comps like Proraw want the best of the best of all lifters. IPF prevent that.

[bozodos]

The non association stuff is fairly onerous, but I believe that most of it comes from WADA, so would be applicable to any other sanctioned sport as well.

Personally I'd find it silly of an IPF lifter to want to compete in a competition that does not use the same equipment and judging standards that we do, but again it comes back to the fact that those other feds are not drug tested, therefore lifters cannot associate.

I just do not see the point of having more than one federation for a sport, unless it's a totally amateur one with no records etc.

[Birds]

Whether management condone it or not, if a fed (and further to this, a sport on the whole) is untested, it's a very safe assumption that at the least the top performing athletes in that fed are using all and sundry to maintain their competitive advantage. Actually, you wouldn't be blamed for thinking most competing in that fed are juicing either, otherwise you'd be wasting your time competing for any glory beyond personal gain because it'll never be a level playing field. You'd be stupid not to use. And then there are those who don't necessarily want to take gold at a meet, but are surrounded by the culture and their own personal aspirations to get the most out of themselves = easy path to PED use. If I was competing PL in an untested fed I would use, as would I if I was also a competing bodybuilder. But I'm neither of those and my curiosity for personal strength...for now...does not outweigh my desire not to use PEDs.

It's rife in the elite division of every physical sport in the world, tested and untested (yes, even the bikini division of natural bodybuilding). In fact, by allowing this to happen with the knowledge that it does happen and no initiatives to prevent it, you are unofficially condoning it within your sport/fed.

Now I don't have any problems at all with steroid use or feds or sports where it happens. Personally I prefer untested feds/sports because you know what you're getting - whatever the lifter has access to. With tested and "natural" events, all you know is that lifters passed a drug test for some selected drugs and not necessarily everything they use or anything they have used and stopped using. This then becomes about who can cheat the system best.

Where it gets sticky for me, is that people like Markos say that it is up to the lifter to look after their supplementation/diet, legal or illegal, and this is none of his business or anyone else's - well Markos isn't stupid, he's well aware of what CAPO have been through with scrutiny regarding illegal drugs. So that is obviously his professional standpoint as an executive of GPC not condoning the use of illegal drugs...and I agree with it...to an extent. It's no one's business, until you start offering people the illusion that one can train at these gyms associated with a particular fed, without using PEDs, and achieve similar results of the athletes put on display. Now to be fair, the gyms aren't exactly claiming that you can, but they surely do understand that when they promote a lifter like this and compare lifts to average joe (which average joe will do vice versa), they are indirectly marketing achievements not attainable without the use of PEDs...er...supplementation left to the lifter to decide whether they use or not.

[niZmO_Man]

Hey Birds, I want to get back into gyming. What's a good entry level steroid to take?

[jangles]

Whether management condone it or not, if a fed (and further to this, a sport on the whole) is untested, it's a very safe assumption that at the least the top performing athletes in that fed are using all and sundry to maintain their competitive advantage. Actually, you wouldn't be blamed for thinking most competing in that fed are juicing either, otherwise you'd be wasting your time competing for any glory beyond personal gain because it'll never be a level playing field. You'd be stupid not to use. And then there are those who don't necessarily want to take gold at a meet, but are surrounded by the culture and their own personal aspirations to get the most out of themselves = easy path to PED use. If I was competing PL in an untested fed I would use, as would I if I was also a competing bodybuilder. But I'm neither of those and my curiosity for personal strength...for now...does not outweigh my desire not to use PEDs.

It's rife in the elite division of every physical sport in the world, tested and untested (yes, even the bikini division of natural bodybuilding). In fact, by allowing this to happen with the knowledge that it does happen and no initiatives to prevent it, you are unofficially condoning it within your sport/fed.

Now I don't have any problems at all with steroid use or feds or sports where it happens. Personally I prefer untested feds/sports because you know what you're getting - whatever the lifter has access to. With tested and "natural" events, all you know is that lifters passed a drug test for some selected drugs and not necessarily everything they use or anything they have used and stopped using. This then becomes about who can cheat the system best.

Where it gets sticky for me, is that people like Markos say that it is up to the lifter to look after their supplementation/diet, legal or illegal, and this is none of his business or anyone else's - well Markos isn't stupid, he's well aware of what CAPO have been through with scrutiny regarding illegal drugs. So that is obviously his professional standpoint as an executive of GPC not condoning the use of illegal drugs...and I agree with it...to an extent. It's no one's business, until you start offering people the illusion that one can train at these gyms associated with a particular fed, without using PEDs, and achieve similar results of the athletes put on display. Now to be fair, the gyms aren't exactly claiming that you can, but they surely do understand that when they promote a lifter like this and compare lifts to average joe (which average joe will do vice versa), they are indirectly marketing achievements not attainable without the use of PEDs...er...supplementation left to the lifter to decide whether they use or not.

The fitness industry in general is rife with what you have just explained.

As far as Markos' examples, I can't confirm because they aren't tested, but I doubt Nina and young Max were using, and they were and still are very strong. Stronger than most ever will be.

I feel you're wrong on the results. Just recently I watched an untested, but natural for arguments sake, 110kg lifter total 760 in comp prep, 300/160/300, with wraps.

He will be doing his first ever GPC event in October. He doesn't care for peds, because he works hard and is strong regardless.

[Birds]

The fitness industry in general is rife with what you have just explained.

As far as Markos' examples, I can't confirm because they aren't tested, but I doubt Nina and young Max were using, and they were and still are very strong. Stronger than most ever will be.

I feel you're wrong on the results. Just recently I watched an untested, but natural for arguments sake, 110kg lifter total 760 in comp prep, 300/160/300, with wraps.

He will be doing his first ever GPC event in October. He doesn't care for peds, because he works hard and is strong regardless.

Yes it is rife with it. It's human nature to take shortcuts (this isn't the reason for all users using) and do what they can to get ahead, just like it's human nature to fear what we don't understand (not all non-users).

You can get plenty strong without PEDs, no doubt. But your strongest natural lifter and your strongest juicer aren't even close. Markos had 90kg (possibly less) lifters pulling those numbers you just posted. I don't want to get into that whole users vs non users and workout intensity thing, because both users and non have hard working people who put in just as much as each other. There is also a lot that genetics can offer that PEDs can't. But unless you have freak level natural test levels, the same lifter putting in equal dedication and intensity, juice will bring them above none. That's just biology and arguing otherwise would be like saying laxatives don't make people shit easier.

Now I *can* believe your 110kg total of 760 is natural - it's massively strong and I give it the benefit of the doubt because I like to trust people. But I also don't believe it; I take it with a grain of salt because I've got no proof it is natural. Nor do I have proof it's not natural. And neither do you. The reality is, neither of us know this for real unless you spend 24/7 absolutely every minute with this guy and I'm not gonna take his or yours or anyone else's word for it - I don't care how good a mate he is or how hard he works. The sad reality of his pilgrimage is that if he's that strong without PEDs then he's always gonna be compared and grouped with users. And I'm not saying the guy sounds like a liar, but liars sound like him...and every one of us.

[-FIGJAM-]

Haven't you heard? Everyone at Olympia next week are natural

[Birds]

I attended the INBA in Perth last weekend - this is one comp where I could comfortably *guess* most of the attendees aren't on juice, at least the guys. The most muscular of the classes had guys about a foot shorter than me and significantly less muscle. Actually felt like if I shredded up I could compete. But then, they can always use and get to a point and then get off them...you just never know.

Either way the emphasis was more on shredding and abs than muscle size. They even wore long shorts because it's not even about legs - so many leg day skippers. Me from 5 years ago would have loved it.