Gym And Supplement Discussion

[Birds]

There was a female physique contest and some of these women had nearly as much muscle as me...they were either genetically gifted, the world's hardest working women, or using a bit of jungle juice

[Birds]

Hey Birds, I want to get back into gyming. What's a good entry level steroid to take?

Testosterone boosting is probably a good place to start, from what I've read. It's at least produced by the body and easier to cycle on and off. Also easier to get a legal prescription for...

Though somehow I don't think that was a serious question...

[bozodos]

To be honest I assume every non IPF 'powerlifter' is on some sort of PED. You need to remember that Markos makes quite a lot of money out of the PTC franchises and GPC powerlifting. He's hardly going to talk about what gear his lifters are on etc. Birds hits on a good point - sleep with dogs end up with fleas.

Easy way to tell: the fact that IPF and Olympic weightlifting only have classes up to 120kg+ vs untested powerlifting feds with up to 140+. Also check out the physiques of just about any IPF lifter over 115kg vs in the other feds. It's possible to be aesthetic, natural and strong, but generally speaking not big as well.

It really wouldn't bother me if they didn't call it powerlifting, or it was its own sport like strongman, where the only real 'fed' is untested.

I find it hard to believe a lifter who has never competed can put down a 760kg total if they were natty. Even allowing for non IPF equipment and technique allowing for more weight to be moved.

Honestly if Markos / PTC methodology was seriously THAT good with natural lifters, they would be entering PA comps and thrashing all of Wilkes' disciples, and carving a niche for themselves with PA lifters.

[rev210]

To be honest I assume every non IPF 'powerlifter' is on some sort of PED. You need to remember that Markos makes quite a lot of money out of the PTC franchises and GPC powerlifting. He's hardly going to talk about what gear his lifters are on etc. Birds hits on a good point - sleep with dogs end up with fleas.

I don't agree. 'every' powerlifter includes lots of people who arent the record holders? If i decided to have a go competitively would that make me a roid taker? Nope. Probably wouldn't win anything either but, I would be technically a 'powerlifter' .

To be fair , Markos seems to be an encouraging type regardless of abillity or dedication to powerlifting affliation, style, drugs or training , as are most I have casually come across who attend different powerlifting gyms. Including Muscle Pit and the PTC here in Perth.

Also, if you run/own a powerlifting Gym you don't make decent money from it, from what I understand. I worked full time at a company where Herny Day (who owns Muscle Pit) was a colleague. He loves the sport but, needed a full time and fairly well paying job to help keep the doors open.

IPF is as regulated as you can get . People cheat and get caught. If you aspire to compete at world games for medals, it's for you.

The other regulatory bodies which don't test , do have in thier favour, the permited use of techniques and supporting equipment (like monolifts) which can make the lifting events for the punter, marginally safer or less risky.

Consider that you don't have to take roids as part of the requirements for any of these associations and competitions . Leaving any of them a potentially fun hobby to get involved in , if thats what you like to do.

[Birds]

Fun yes, but fun in the same way that 56k players used to have against cable internet users playing online games like counterstrike haha

[rev210]

laaaaag!

Edited September 10, 2015 by rev210

[TTT]

Wow Boz.. just wow..

you not only drank from the Wilks coolaid, you guzzled the whole lot.

Some of the shit you're typing is just f**king unbelievable.

To be honest I assume every non IPF 'powerlifter' is on some sort of PED.

You must be f**ked in the head mate.

You (A nobody in the sport of powerlifting), to get online on to a small section of a single brand car forum and say such things about people you have no knowledge about, where they can't see/read your petty opinions, must make you feel real good about yourself.

The same self that was a fat useless f**k for the majority of his years... the same self that couldn't thank Markos enough for his simple program and articles/blogs about lifting and eating philosophy...

To now say shit like this about Markos as a person, as a businessmen, about "every single non IPF affiliated lifter" in powerlifting all over the world is just sickening.

Just unbelievable

You should be ashamed to call yourself a powerlifter.

In fact, you should just outright be ashamed of yourself in general to not only say this shit but to also think it.

Edited September 10, 2015 by TTT

[jangles]

To be honest I assume every non IPF 'powerlifter' is on some sort of PED. You need to remember that Markos makes quite a lot of money out of the PTC franchises and GPC powerlifting. He's hardly going to talk about what gear his lifters are on etc. Birds hits on a good point - sleep with dogs end up with fleas.

Easy way to tell: the fact that IPF and Olympic weightlifting only have classes up to 120kg+ vs untested powerlifting feds with up to 140+. Also check out the physiques of just about any IPF lifter over 115kg vs in the other feds. It's possible to be aesthetic, natural and strong, but generally speaking not big as well.

It really wouldn't bother me if they didn't call it powerlifting, or it was its own sport like strongman, where the only real 'fed' is untested.

I find it hard to believe a lifter who has never competed can put down a 760kg total if they were natty. Even allowing for non IPF equipment and technique allowing for more weight to be moved.

Honestly if Markos / PTC methodology was seriously THAT good with natural lifters, they would be entering PA comps and thrashing all of Wilkes' disciples, and carving a niche for themselves with PA lifters.

Thats still the issue. You think because someone is stronger than you and hasn't competed in IPF, that they aren't natural. This bloke hasn't even competed in GPC yet. Him and myself have trained together for 3.5yrs. He has been training for 5years and has been over 100kg all that time. He has bigger quads than assisted lifters I know. But he sure does have an IPF physique, so how would you go about passing judgement on him?

Ed Coan competed in IPF for years before he tested positive. So much for the IPF being a stand up fed.

TESTED world record lifts are only 10% lower than UNTESTED lifts, so you really are just making excuses

Hell, look at people like Layne Norton, Jesse Norris, Jason Manenkoff. They have better physiques than a lot.

[jangles]

Fun yes, but fun in the same way that 56k players used to have against cable internet users playing online games like counterstrike haha

Its a competitive sport, but ultimately you are there to better yourself.

[rev210]

Well lets not add any more overreations to the fire...Boz is just passionate and is a sort of IPF fan in the same way as the ford/holden lovers . They can rant strange tribal abuse at each other and anyone one else who refers to the wrong brand.

Not everyone races a holden to win at track days. Some people aren't there to win at all. But. people with turbo jap crap are cheaters and scum....

[TTT]

nah f**k that...

a better example is that someone who drove an auto Festiva for years has read about holden and ford and after learning to drive manual in both has chosen the Holden... bought a lifetime supply of Chev badges and is plastering them on every panel... has practiced a couple of launches and has run a 14.9 at 105mph with a 2.6 60'

He now believes that any Ford driver that runs better times must be using slicks filled with nitrogen and probably has a hiflow turbo in the stock housing.

And that on Ford only drag racing days, the organisers of the event hand out free N20 to all attendees and do discreet install for them so that when they race a chevolden they can pretend to be stock but they aren't.

He also has ordered a new badge instead of JDM as f**k its Ignorant as f**k.

[Birds]

10% is a fair whack of difference IMO when you're talking 1000kg+ totals etc.

I also argue that those tested world records are only tested for what they can find. New drugs are being synthesised on the daily and when those lifters take every supplement under the sun that isn't illegal or detectable, you may as well be on the illegal stuff.

Anyway I'd support an untested Olympics...I'd like to see the best of the best from the human body, assisted or not, rather than hope the people who won didn't cheat everyone else out of a level playing field.

[jangles]

10% is a fair whack of difference IMO when you're talking 1000kg+ totals etc.

I also argue that those tested world records are only tested for what they can find. New drugs are being synthesised on the daily and when those lifters take every supplement under the sun that isn't illegal or detectable, you may as well be on the illegal stuff.

Anyway I'd support an untested Olympics...I'd like to see the best of the best from the human body, assisted or not, rather than hope the people who won didn't cheat everyone else out of a level playing field.

No need to argue that, I wrote TESTED and UNTESTED in capitals for a reason.

Agree, it would be, but that's an average and not many people are totalling over 1000kg.

[Birds]

Its a competitive sport, but ultimately you are there to better yourself.

This is why I lift myself, but in a competition people are comparing themselves each other (and it's nice to know what you are coming up against). That's the definition of a comp even if everyone is there primarily to better their previous meet and support each other. There's still a 1st 2nd and 3rd place.

I know in the novice comp I attended, I didn't expect to place, but I certainly wanted to see how I stacked up against everyone else strength wise (except for my squat, because I knew that would be shit) and when I saw a clearly roided up "novice" lifter hit the stage, I admit it took the fun out of that comparison a bit. Now that could be my fault for not getting on the gear myself in an untested fed, or simply the nature of the beast that you never know who you're against.

But for me it's like raw and equipped lifts, yet not being able to see who is wearing a bench shirt or wraps. You can call it finding an excuse for not being as strong and it may well be...competitive people love to find excuses for why we aren't as good as others, but that doesn't mean the excuse is invalid.

Just my opinion on it all; I'm not loyal to any one federation and don't follow the sport closely enough to be divided on them.

[bozodos]

Hold up with the personal attacks for a minute.

I said that I'm not a huge fan of untested feds. Yes my opinion has changed on that since I started actually powerlifting. I haven't met Wilkes, but from what I've heard and how I've seen PA ran, I'm not a massive fan. I'll reserve judgement of him for if and when I ever meet him.

I have respect for Markos and his posting on forums to encourage people to get interested in strength training, something which I have mentioned to every PA lifter I've ever met. That and the effectiveness of the PTC franchise model. I find it disappointing that he chooses not be PA affiliated, but it is what it is.

I don't like people trying conflate GPC results across to IPF given that we are drug tested and have stricter judging and equipment standards (not to mention 2 hour vs 24 hour weigh ins, different weight classes etc), therefore it will never be an accurate comparison. I also do not like the implication that PA/IPF lifters are 'weaker' because of this.

I'll admit that to start with I thought IPF was full of fat weak people due to the discrepancy in numbers and physiques in the heavier weight classes until I knew the reasons why.

Jangles:

You can speculate all you like about how many elite IPF lifters are cheating, but at least there is an effort made systematically to eliminate it.

If your mate can do that sort of total to IPF standards, why on earth would he not compete with us? He would be an international level lifter.

Tolga: I'm being honest here, it might piss you off because I'm a nobody in the lifting world, it wouldn't really make any difference if I was an elite lifter though. I'm not saying that non IPF lifters are weak not dedicated, or trying to attack Markos as a person, or denigrate what the man does. I was initially interested in GPC, but the equipment and dodgy squatting put me off, as well as no local presence. Hence I ended up in PA. It's not very well managed or promoted, but it is the official Australian powerlifting federation.

You can scream about it til you're blue in the face about how 'most' of the lifters in other feds are natural, but where PED use is unofficially condoned, I find it hard to believe that. For what conceivable purpose would you not use if you were intending to be competitive there? It also does not help for powerlifting to be taken as a serious sport. I also find it amusing people (usually on the gear themselves) who try and argue about how 'little' it improves performance and recovery.

Powerlifting as a sport is why I am against PED use - I'm pretty sure I stated it somewhere else. I couldn't care less what non competing lifters do.

It's a circular argument - you're going to strawman me as a weak idiot who is in love with Wilkes, I'm going to assume that you can't handle the bant in regards to powerlifting feds, and neither will see eye to eye. I didn't actually start out fed bashing (I will admit my first comment about fake feds was snarky though.) I'm sorry if I offended you by having a strong opinion on the matter.

One last thing - while I may be sorry about any offence caused to you, Markos or other non IPF lifters (and yes I am genuine about that), I didn't post here deliberately out of obscurity, it I were to do so I would have done it anonymously on 4chan/fit, and I'm pretty sure I posted my views on powerlifting feds in the 40 page odd shitfight on AusBB not all that long ago.

Edited September 11, 2015 by bozodos

[TTT]

As to why I have disdain for non IPF feds (and trust me despite being a PA member there are a lot of things about PA/IPF that piss me off too), I have the following reasons:

Use of monolifts for squatting, wraps for "raw", crap judging, specialised bar for deadlift (to allow more weight to be moved), foot and posterior placement on bench (as well as the judging). I won't get into the equipped side as I'm a raw lifter, but multiply does not compare to single ply.

I got sucked into thinking they were the "stronger" feds when I first started lifting, thanks to Markos spamming his videos endlessly.

***Monolift is also a safety measure. Those straps are there to catch the 300+kg barbell when someone fails. The spotters shouldn't and can't catch that and if they tried, would break their limbs.

***Wraps for raw is just that. It is defined as RAW and a lifting suit is defined as equipped. That is how the feds rule book is written. It's like saying you think the speed limit should be 50 everywhere instead of 60.

***Crap judging... well I guess you are a better judge from where you're sitting... on your couch... in your lounge room while judging lifts filmed on a mobile phone from a random angle and height.

***specialised bar... again.. rules for the fed

***Foot and arse placement... really...?? you have a disdain for non IPF because they can bend further due to being on toes instead of flat foot? and arse.. it has to be touching the bench.. it's a simple rule.

***Equipped is equipped.. whether you do single or multi-ply depends on your ability to take pain and pressure. No use even talking about equipped as it's a completely different sport.

***Markos "spamming" his videos endlessly" is/was to promote more people to lift for strength. Nick from these forums went from an ugly 170kg squatter to one of the strong guys in the gym.

Birds the most astheticsbrahfaggot type even tried a novice comp and kind of enjoyed it.. even his cardio bunny girlfriend has turned to strength training. YOU got in to powerlifting.

His videos were posted to get people motivated to better themselves.

I'm sure I could squat a shitload more if I was half squatting, not walking it out and wearing knee wraps too.

I'm sure if I tried steroids I could by mr olypmia.

If you haven't tried it you're just assuming.

Personally, my best bare knees walked out v wrapped and mono was 7.5kg

others get much much more but without trying it for yourself, you're assuming that you'll smash it. Try it and see if you can handle the pain of wraps.. See if it throws your squat pattern out of it's grove... it changes things.

I've read a GPC lifter on another forum comment on how DBOL tablets were being passed around at one of their meets

You "read" it.. so now it must be true and are spouting it around like it's fact.

You need to remember that Markos makes quite a lot of money out of the PTC franchises and GPC powerlifting. He's hardly going to talk about what gear his lifters are on etc

I'm not saying that non IPF lifters are weak not dedicated, or trying to attack Markos as a person, or denigrate what the man does

well which is it? are you saying that due to making lots of money from PTC and GPC he's hiding his lifters gear usage or are you not trying to attack him as a person or denigrate what he does?

The reality is, I don't even compete in powerlifting anymore and shouldn't really care.... But there is always people like you around. Who have done absolutely NOTHING for the sport of powerlifting, who have opinions on what's good and what's bad about different feds.

And everyone is entitled to have their opinion... but when you stand up on your soap box and make wide sweeping statements about the judging, the running, the drug use of "EVERY" non IPF powerlifter and the cover-up of it due to monetary reasons, it pisses me off.

I'm sure Markos won't give a f**k what you have to say or know who you are.

He is someone who started trained people in his garage.

Back then, CAPO states comp had about 30 lifters competing.

He almost doubled the amount of lifters by taking people from his garage there.

Powerlifting in Aus grew and grew with his persistence.

His own ProRaw comp is now on the international stage being held alongside the Arnold Classic.

So while you try to segregate tested and non tested feds and talk shit about the non tested side according to you, the person you speak ill of busy trying to grow the sport.. to get even more people involved... to make it even more of a spectacle to get yet even more people in to it.

One other thing... PA, prevent it's lifters from lifting in non PA sanctioned events.

All other feds allow their lifters to lift in whatever comp they want with whatever fed it's held with.

Markos's ProRaw was created to bring competition back to competing.

Where the best lifters of each weight division in all feds can come together and compete with the best of other feds, on the same stage, on the same day, using the same equipment, same judges.

His event has seen world wide recognition. He has and will continue to have the best lifters from around the world fly over to compete with the best from other countries.

That's powerlifting. Competing against the true best. Not just the ones from your gym, or city, or state or fed. Against the best of the best from all feds..

well not PA.. Because they're not allowed. Because you know... they might catch steroids by lifting in the same room as people who may be using.

Edited September 11, 2015 by TTT

[jangles]

Hold up with the personal attacks for a minute.

I said that I'm not a huge fan of untested feds. Yes my opinion has changed on that since I started actually powerlifting. I haven't met Wilkes, but from what I've heard and how I've seen PA ran, I'm not a massive fan. I'll reserve judgement of him for if and when I ever meet him.

I have respect for Markos and his posting on forums to encourage people to get interested in strength training, something which I have mentioned to every PA lifter I've ever met. That and the effectiveness of the PTC franchise model. I find it disappointing that he chooses not be PA affiliated, but it is what it is.

I don't like people trying conflate GPC results across to IPF given that we are drug tested and have stricter judging and equipment standards (not to mention 2 hour vs 24 hour weigh ins, different weight classes etc), therefore it will never be an accurate comparison. I also do not like the implication that PA/IPF lifters are 'weaker' because of this.

I'll admit that to start with I thought IPF was full of fat weak people due to the discrepancy in numbers and physiques in the heavier weight classes until I knew the reasons why.

Jangles:

You can speculate all you like about how many elite IPF lifters are cheating, but at least there is an effort made systematically to eliminate it.

If your mate can do that sort of total to IPF standards, why on earth would he not compete with us? He would be an international level lifter.

Tolga: I'm being honest here, it might piss you off because I'm a nobody in the lifting world, it wouldn't really make any difference if I was an elite lifter though. I'm not saying that non IPF lifters are weak not dedicated, or trying to attack Markos as a person, or denigrate what the man does. I was initially interested in GPC, but the equipment and dodgy squatting put me off, as well as no local presence. Hence I ended up in PA. It's not very well managed or promoted, but it is the official Australian powerlifting federation.

You can scream about it til you're blue in the face about how 'most' of the lifters in other feds are natural, but where PED use is unofficially condoned, I find it hard to believe that. For what conceivable purpose would you not use if you were intending to be competitive there? It also does not help for powerlifting to be taken as a serious sport. I also find it amusing people (usually on the gear themselves) who try and argue about how 'little' it improves performance and recovery.

Powerlifting as a sport is why I am against PED use - I'm pretty sure I stated it somewhere else. I couldn't care less what non competing lifters do.

It's a circular argument - you're going to strawman me as a weak idiot who is in love with Wilkes, I'm going to assume that you can't handle the bant in regards to powerlifting feds, and neither will see eye to eye. I didn't actually start out fed bashing (I will admit my first comment about fake feds was snarky though.) I'm sorry if I offended you by having a strong opinion on the matter.

One last thing - while I may be sorry about any offence caused to you, Markos or other non IPF lifters (and yes I am genuine about that), I didn't post here deliberately out of obscurity, it I were to do so I would have done it anonymously on 4chan/fit, and I'm pretty sure I posted my views on powerlifting feds in the 40 page odd shitfight on AusBB not all that long ago.

Well, he would be 100kg off the pace in Australia, let alone the World. Plus there isn't anything locally.

I never said who is and who isn't using. You did that.

Point is, no one but the likes of you cares. You're being classic example of what's wrong.

Also, the 10% comment was based off the world record totals... So, did they happen or not? And the untested feds have crappy judging, so is it really less than 10%?

[bozodos]

I'm of the opinion that squats should be walked out, using equipment that any gym would have rather than a very expensive, specialised tool. Yes I've read the proponents of monolifts talking about the safety benefits, I'm not convinced.

Yes you can say that your fed has wraps for raw as it is written in the rules. To me as a PA lifter it is equipped. I know how much it hurts - I train with equipped lifters and help them with their gear and training. Equipped lifting is harder than raw IMO and only an idiot would try and argue otherwise. I personally do not use knee sleeves or the like.

I've watched enough videos of lifts from multiple angles to have a fair knowledge of what is and isn't legal depth for a squat. With the ones Markos used to post, you'd have to freeze frame it to see that the hip crease had passed below the top of the knee. I know I can squat more if I half squat it because I've tried it out. Different feds, different judging standards etc. I disagree with using extra equipment to move more weight to make it more of a spectacle.

Fair comment on me trying out monolift squatting, I guess I'd have to go to a PTC or Fuzzy's in Adelaide to try it out. I find squatting out of free standing racks to be harder mentally than squatting in a power cage.

Yep I have an opinion and I'm free to give it as you are to rebut it. But refrain from the personal attacks, it makes you look like a fool.

I help out my club - I wasn't even interested in competing, that I do to support my local PL club and coach. I also help out with setting up our competitions, and newbie lifters who come to our gym, I've donated some equipment for use at competitions, I also open up the gym when no one else is able to train in case there are non members wanting to try it out. I also promote powerlifting at work, and my commercial gym. So you can bugger off with saying that I do nothing for the sport. It may not be much, but it's more than some.

I'm saying that Markos would be a fool to say "oh yeah most of our good lifters are on 3 steroids a day", because it would cause a shitstorm against him, GPC and PTC as a brand. You know that steroids are a media favourite. But when a federation does not outright say they are against PED use, then that is an implication that they are ok with it.

The lifter made that particular statement about PED use at a comp and detailed information of his steroid cycles (without anonymity mind you), it's all there for the public to see. Whether it is, in fact true or not, is kind of beside the point.

Again don't try and strawman me as saying that it's all gear and no effort, I'm saying that if they gave such a small benefit, no one would bother with the cost, expense and illegality.

I know the history of PTC - I did read all of his newsletters etc. Like I said, I admire what he's done to encourage people to get into strength training. If he was serious about growing powerlifting, why didn't he affiliate with Powerlifting Australia?

As for the Arnolds, in the US the powerlifting ath that event is all USAPL. I have no idea why PA isn't doing it here.

We can't associate with people who have been sanctioned for PEDs due to ASADA rules, the non association with non IPF fed members in a training context is a PA rule, and one that I personally don't agree with. I think that it's counter productive, and is a disincentive for those who train at non PA strength gyms from joining up with us. On the other hand, I can also see why IPF/PA would not want to give any other powerlifting federation any sort of legitimacy, and would want to distance themselves from feds that do not have an anti PED stance.

Jangles: how heavy is you friend?

And I made the sweeping statement about PED use, because how can you be competitive where people are using if you are not, unless you are a genetic freak (assuming that diet / training are similar).

The better way to compare totals would be to see the variance in untested lifters lifting to IPF rules and equipment IMO.

Edited September 11, 2015 by bozodos

[jangles]

You do realise how much an IPF certified combo is compared to a monolift?

110kg

[-FIGJAM-]

this thread has brought the lulz today