Gym And Supplement Discussion

[Dani Boi]

Majority of whole protein foods have 15-25% BCAA in them, so if you are getting adeuqate protein in your diet then I really don't see the point.

[Mitcho_7]

The point is they are more readily absorbed in the bcaa powder form because they are already broken down so they are going to be available immediately for the body to use.

If you are relying on getting your bcaa's from food you are goin to have to wait a fair while for them to be digested and absorbed. So your body will be in a catabolic state for longer.

[Dani Boi]

So there good for someone fasted, that's about it.

[Mitcho_7]

Fasted or not they have there place.

Perhaps do a little reading on digestion of proteins and bcaa's before knocking them.

You want a quick hit of protein before/during/after your workout to prevent too much muscle catabolism.

The quicker you can absorb the amino acids, the less muscle catabolism you should get.

I'm not saying they are the best supplement or to promote there use oranything, I'm merely trying to explain the science/thought process behind them.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Mitcho_7

[Birds]

"Fasting" the word of the day or something? Never been posted in here before and I've seen 3-4 times in the last page

[markos]

Might be relevant to your discussion, might not

PERFORMANCE TRAINING CENTRE NEWSLETTER

ISSUE # 72

FOCUS

Spending time on the internet and chatting to lifters of all sorts, one thing that becomes abundantly clear is that very few have the right focus when it comes to lifting and eating. The amount of questions I see about supplements is mind numbing.

Just today I saw someone asking about something called Trimethylglycine. I mean seriously. How far along would you have to be before you ask about something like that? This guy must already weigh 100kg with 8% body fat and he’s just looking for something to finish off his physique. Reality is he probably weighs 70kg and can nearly bench 80kg, but is too afraid to try eating and squatting. Another asked about BCAA isolate. This is normal, there is always someone trying to avoid hard work somewhere in the lifting world. The amount of times I’ve heard someone state that they have found this NEW protein thats going to make them massive............It’s not the protein supplement you fools, it’s the discipline at the dinner table. Their focus is way off.

Then there’s the other group that have just put together the greatest training program since mankind walked the earth. They have these incredibly intricate programs, double splits with heart rate monitored cardio, pre exhaustion training on Monday, Thursday and Saturday with post exhaustion on the other days, then flushing a muscle with blood doing a double drop set as a finisher for ultimate growth. The reps for basics are 8 and 15 for pumping, except legs where 7 are found to be more conducive to growth than 8 and biceps that seem to grow best with 12 reps. Just go and lift some heavy rocks, that’ll do the job.

You guys think that I make this shit up. I’m being dead serious, that’s what these guys really think. When I first put up my Skinny Bastard routine on the forum, I was shit canned by every 58kg guy with 12 3/5” biceps on there. What the hell did I know, how can squats make your arms grow. The focus has shifted now. Everybody understands that lifting heavy on the basic exercises is all the training you need, at least till your biceps stretch that tape measure to 17”.

Still, I get questions about how many reps or sets, like it really matters in the great scheme of things. And rest times, people want to know how long you should rest between sets.

Well, let’s have a history lesson. Paul Anderson is the strongest man that ever lived. Let’s have his take on rest periods.

Paul would squat

272kg x 10

Rest 30 minutes

272kg x 10

Rest 30 minutes

375kg x 2

Rest 30 minutes

385kg x 2

Rest 30 minutes

408kg x 2

Rest 30 minutes

Half squat 545kg x 2

Rest 30 minutes

Quarter squat 816kg x 2

Now, most of you are probably focusing on his 30 minute rest periods between sets and how long this session took. I’m focusing on the weights. He would drink 4 litres of milk throughout his training sessions which lasted over 3 hours. I wonder if he took Trimethylglycine.

Focus on heavy squats, plenty of milk, and you will get big and strong. Focus on double split isolation work and BCAA Isolates, and you’ll remain a geek.

The little things do matter, but only after you have done the main thing, that’s busted your ass under the squat rack and eaten all the food allotted to Madagascar. Then look at the little things, like having a protein drink straight after training, getting 8 hours sleep, 60gms of protein every 3 hours, vegies with every meal.

There is always someone looking to find the magic formula for getting big and strong. It was discovered a long time ago by Henry Steinborn. It’s called “ SQUATS”.

He has been credited with bringing squats to America. I’m guessing he’ll never be the poster boy at Fitness First.

That’s Henry “Milo” Steinborn pictured below

Nothing to rival squats exists, stop looking and start lifting. Your focus should be on how much you can squat, not the sets and reps. So what if you only mange 5 sets of 7 when your program said 5 sets of 10, as long as you train as hard as you can and keep doing more – more weight more reps more sets, you’re improving.

So you’ve run out of Vitamin C. Slash your wrists...now, or have an orange or two. What’s that? No more protein powder. f**k, what do we do now? I know, let’s eat a steak or scramble some eggs.

You guys may be laughing, but these are real world scenarios. So many worry about the supplements they are taking that they fail to realise you can’t beat food. Protein powder is a very convenient product and I fully endorse it, but it’s not irreplaceable. Nina and Max have been lifting without out for the last week or two. Max has simply started to drink more milk, Nina is eating food. Plenty of muscle was built long before protein powders were ever invented.

Henry "Milo" Steinborn - 1930

These pictures above show Milo lifting back in the day. The focus back then was on health and strength. I think we have forgotten that very valuable lesson somehow.

The guy on the left is Eugene Sandow, the pic is over 100 years old. John Grimek is next to him, Mr America 1940, 69 years ago. No protein powder back then, no machines, no treadmills, no steroids, just simple weights........and a focus on health and strength.

Below are photos of Reg Park, Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross and John Grimek, all these guys had to work with were barbells, dumbbells and kettlebells, some benches, cables and racks. Supplements and steroids were not around when these pics were taken, but lots of good wholesome food was.

So where do you think you guys should be directing your focus?

The pics above are of Clancy Ross, Chuck Sipes and Steve Reeves, over 60 years ago. That should be enough proof for you guys now to stop arguing about protein powders and super training programs. These guys simply did basic exercises with free weights and ate wholesome food. There were no takeaway shops, just meat, fruit and vegies. Lift enough, eat enough, grow enough.

Start focusing your energy on the same thing these guys did and you too can improve your physique just like these guys did.

Now I understand technology and science have created some great advances. I get it and embrace it. I drive what I feel is the best car a working stiff can buy ($50,000 limit), I have a state of the art cinema............... and I make my clients lift rocks.

Before some lab coat tells me that protein supplements blah blah blah........... have him provide me a better physical specimen than this...pic taken late 30’s early 40’s.

If these guys can build physiques like this WITHOUT all the advances we have supposedly had with training and diet, shouldn’t we at least try and get to this level before we go looking for the edge. Currently, I know of no one who looks as good as John Grimek did nearly 70 years ago. He was also strong, having represented USA in the Olympics, weightlifting of course. That was the 1936 Berlin Games. He was still squatting with 190kg in his 60’s.

Try this some time, thats a 45lb plate ( 20.4kg).

Okay, enough on Grimek. Now do you guys still think that your focus should be on whether a particular can of tuna has 1.4gms more protein than another, or the fact that you should be eating two cans of tuna. Sometimes we get lost in the details. You guys can probably tell that I like to look back at how things were done in the past before I employ some new super duper method to you guys.

Most of you will have now done bench squats in the gym during the last week. I have noticed that most clients get a shock when a new weight is placed on their back during squats. I have gone back to yesteryear, all the way back to Paul Anderson and his partial squats. He was the first man to squat 1000lbs....and then 1200lbs, and to this day, the only man to do it without assistance gear. He was a bi g believer in partial training to complement his full range movements, and seeing how nobody has ever lifted more weight than him, I figure he just may know something we don’t. I have used partials in the bench press with great success, and in the squat around a year ago, where I was loading Pat with well over 350kg, and even little Max with 250kg. I have increased the range of motion and decreased the weight, for now.

I used this method to get Ping Ping to deadlift 200kg, starting the bar on tall blocks and slowly decreasing the height, till he pulled 200kg off the floor.

I neglected to mention that Paul Anderson is also a product of the past, having competed and won the gold medal in the 1956 Melbourne Olympics in the super heavyweight class of the weightlifting.

In case any of you doubt that a man that lifted and competed 50 years ago is still the strongest man to ever walk the planet, how about squatting 410kg x 10 as a warm up at Muscle Beach gym, or 230kg overhead press from a rack. He also performed a back lift with 2,845kg, a world record that will never ever be approached. No one has ever got closer than even a third of that weight.

By listing all these numbers and pics of some great lifters of the past, I am trying to illustrate that these guys had far less stuff to worry about when it came to lifting and eating. No internet to search for the super secret programs of the elite, no supplements, no steroids, no assistance gear, no theorists on training frequency, no machines, no electronic cardio equipment, far less processed foods on supermarket shelves to tempt us, no fast food chains.

Their focus was simply on training hard enough to produce muscle growth, eating enough to support that growth, and resting. That is all you need to focus on right now. Get all that right and the rest will take care of itself.

As a footnote here, Max had made terrific progress on a 3 litres of milk a day diet. We decided to change it and replaced all that milk with protein drinks, less milk, more protein was the theory. His gains stopped immediately. Obviously he was now ingesting less calories than he previously had with the milk, but his protein uptake was higher.

He is now back on 3-4 litres of milk a day. We will monitor his progress and determine whether it was diet or something else that had caused his stalling. He had got sick and injured during this time, but lifting sessions missed was minimal and not a factor. He performed a bench squat with 165kg late last week, so signs are the milk is doing the trick again, he is weighing 68kg in the morning. He had got up to 70kg before switching diets. We will keep the protein drink after sessions, but milk will once again be the mainstay of his diet.

Also reporting back on Spiros. A few issues ago I mentioned that his strength was slowly disappearing as he was starving himself. He has upped his calorie intake of clean food. His weight continued to drop, down to 108kg, but his strength was coming back.

Last night he weighed 109kg. He is lifting 4-5 times a week, and lifting some big weights. Try this

230kg deadlift

180kg x 10 deadlift

205kg squat

150kg bench press

105kg strict press from rack

110kg C&PP

That’s an 805kg total in the last week.

He is now eating enough to support his lifting. He still has plenty of fat to lose, but slow and steady while getting stronger is the correct way to do it. He has still not gone close to maxing out on his lifts, but being 44 years old he needs to be careful and take small steps. His 180kg x 10 deadlift was stupidly easy, I felt he had another 10 reps in him. These were not bouncing reps, but perfectly controlled reps with a pause at the bottom and no delay between reps. Showing a pic of a prison straight after discussing Spiros is pure coincidence.

Folsom prison – 1961

The Mighty Apollon

Sig Klein’s gym - 1920

Excuse the nostalgia trip, I just want you guys to know that physical culture has been around for a lot longer than any of us, the difference today is that the focus has shifted from health to creatine.

Thanks for reading

Markos

[jangles]

lol Kasko

Johhny - I bought a tub of Purple Wraath.

I'm not the HULK... yet..

purple lemonade is the flavour which DOESN'T taste like shit.

I have it in the morning as I'm trying intermittent fasting and therefore not eating breaky at the moment, and then during lifting.

I haven't noticed anything different.

As Mitch said, it tastes nice and I drink more water.

I like this, seen you posted a link.

How's it going for you? IF that is

Edited October 25, 2012 by jangles

[jangles]

Lol powerlifters and bodybuilders/gym goers... Can't we all just get along?

Not going to give an opinion on BCAA's as I haven't used them enough to voice a proper opinion, although I tend to think my stamina has been ever so slightly better during workouts in which I've used Scivation Xtend. The only supplement I have used now which I really appreciate is CREATINE.

Yes even I've put down creatine before, but whether a placebo or not, my strength in the gym has been higher than usual.

On another topic,

INTERMITTENT FASTING:

Yay or Nay?

Has anyone actually tried it long enough to provide some decent feedback?

TTT, how are you finding it so far?

Yes. Myself and a couple of other mates do it.

I enjoy it immensely and my power to weight ratio is far more advanced than others I know.

Not saying there aren't other ways, but it's worked so quick and awesome for me, I struggle to comprehend the clean eating and 6 meals

[markos]

Interesting Jangles, I may try this on some of my lifters, can you elaborate a little on eating/training etc

Some of my guys simply cant eat enough, so if theyre going to be small, they may as well get strong

[jangles]

Interesting Jangles, I may try this on some of my lifters, can you elaborate a little on eating/training etc

Some of my guys simply cant eat enough, so if theyre going to be small, they may as well get strong

I use wendlers 531 program to train with. you know enough here haha

I started off training for 5 months, using the 531

Learnt deads, squats and military's from scratch.

After that I ended up with

Bench 1.69

Deads 2.46

Squats 1.97

Military 1.05

cycling carbs and fats, fasting for 16 feeding for 8

Saying they can't eat now, that's probably an issue because my pwo is up around 2000kcal. Took me a week or two to get used to this, round an hour to eat it. Now I inhale food. Ate 3x more food to lose 10kg fat.

The science behind it also is that, a carb is a carb. So if you need a supp, cereal, desserts.

on my non gym days I eat more fats and don't intentionally eat carbs.

Typical gym day for me is 200 P, 370C, 90F

Off days are I just cut carbs and eat fattier meats.

I only train for around 4 hours a week.

it's commonly used to get lean muscle, I'm 10kg lighter and still gaining strength.

I've gained 3kg since I originally lost the fat. And am leaner still.

I eat 'dirty' foods with no guilt

Edited October 25, 2012 by jangles

[Dani Boi]

Fasted or not they have there place.

Perhaps do a little reading on digestion of proteins and bcaa's before knocking them.

You want a quick hit of protein before/during/after your workout to prevent too much muscle catabolism.

The quicker you can absorb the amino acids, the less muscle catabolism you should get.

I'm not saying they are the best supplement or to promote there use oranything, I'm merely trying to explain the science/thought process behind them.

I never knocked them. Not sure what you mean by a quick hit of protein, not that it matters anyway Your body is digesting protein constantly if you are eating adequate protein so you are constantly getting a stream of amino acids no matter what. The excess will just be pissed out i.e. your bcaa supp.

[byebye]

Bench 1.69

Deads 2.46

Squats 1.97

Military 1.05

You forgot your prepub curls with closey?

[jangles]

You forgot your prepub curls with closey?

Don't confuse yourself with me.

Byebye fasts too. Has a higher dead ratio than me. weighs less, lifts more.

[TTT]

oh they are ratios// I was trying to work out what format that was..

Why not just post what you weigh and your actual lifts?

I only started IF about 2 weeks ago.

I'll weigh myself this weekend to see results.

I'm not an ideal candidate to measure strength with IF though.

I'm broken in so many places that I can't really train well at the moment.

I do what I can and doing IF to drop some useless kg at the moment.

How do I find it?

HUNGRY...!!!!

I feel really hungry till about 10am, then it becomes ok.

Then I start eating at 11:30 or 12pm.

then again at 3pm

Then dinner, then train, then shake, then cottage cheese and sleep.

[Mitcho_7]

I never knocked them. Not sure what you mean by a quick hit of protein, not that it matters anyway Your body is digesting protein constantly if you are eating adequate protein so you are constantly getting a stream of amino acids no matter what. The excess will just be pissed out i.e. your bcaa supp.

Your body isnt going to be digesting a steak you ate before, when you are working out... Your body will go into sympathetic nervous system arousal which will divert most of the blood flow from the GI tract and slow digestion. When the amino acids are already in free form they are going to be alot more easily absorbed because they dont need to be broken down anywhere near as much so they will get into your system quickly(despite the limited digestive activity).

They arent meant to replace good nutrition throughout the day by any means, they are just a supplement to use around your workout time. Leucine is a good muscle protein synthesis stimulator, so having it readily available around the time of your session is going to be adventageous in reducing skeletal muscle catabolism.

[byebye]

You get hungry you just learn to deal with it, body effects or similar helps with appetite though, biggest meal of the day should be after training

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Unless your workouts are quite long, and/or you work out a few times a day you may find it won't have much of an effect if you're an amateur gym dude like you mentioned.

Tell your mates to stop being so stingy and try a couple serves of theirs before you potentially waste your money.

I tend to do around 1.5 hrs and train about 4~5 times a week.

I'm 184cm and weigh 84.5kg with a shitty frame (asian), PB:

150 deads, abt 3 reps, 140 abt 6~8 reps

110 bench, abt 5 reps

100 squat, abt 6 reps (need more training)

I've used Xtend before and SizeOn, etc. didn't get any gains besides some "puffiness" from the water. Currently eating about 5 meals, with 2x WPI shakes and 1x Casein before bed.

If I were to take BCAAs, when would be the best time?

[jangles]

oh they are ratios// I was trying to work out what format that was..

Why not just post what you weigh and your actual lifts?

I only started IF about 2 weeks ago.

I'll weigh myself this weekend to see results.

I'm not an ideal candidate to measure strength with IF though.

I'm broken in so many places that I can't really train well at the moment.

I do what I can and doing IF to drop some useless kg at the moment.

How do I find it?

HUNGRY...!!!!

I feel really hungry till about 10am, then it becomes ok.

Then I start eating at 11:30 or 12pm.

then again at 3pm

Then dinner, then train, then shake, then cottage cheese and sleep.

I don't post them because I think ratios are a better indication of strength. I can if you like.

71kg 179cm

BP 120KG 1RM

DL 175KG 1RM

SQ 140KG 1RM

OP 75KG 1RM

All my lifts are done using ripptoes methods.

I was training 4 nights a week. So, 4hrs

The style of IF I use works for me. I train in the evenings.

PWO meal should always be the largest meal of the day, whether you train in mornings or evenings. If its a 10hr feeding window on training days, dont stress. I eat two normal meals, 40P, 70C, 10F

Then eat huge on the last meal of the day. I hardly ever supp protein, sometimes if I'm strapped for time. Nothing like a 400g steak PWO though. Then sweets or cereals to top up carbs.

An issue I find is people find it 'hard' this is because they over analyse it. Eat normal, train, eat huge. If you know macros of foods it should be a breeze. I'm never too fussed about fats, concentrate on protein and carbs in PWO.

I dropped about 5kg in a week, by eating more food, lifts went up rapidly.

My father simply started skipping breakfast, no training, has lost 14kg in 2 months. He eats more than he used to now.

I can only base it on my bench, but I was stuck on 85kg weighing 80, started eating more and cycling carbs through IF and using wendlers 531, haven't looked back.

Edited October 25, 2012 by jangles

[Tangles]

Nice read Markos....

so, what is the suggestion for someone who CANT do squats (impossible for me)?

SLDL's also seem to want to make my legs collapse, so I dont do them as its not worth injuring myself over (cant do bent leg)

from what I understand: build those thighs, and the rest of the body 'gains'

I stick to calf raise as my "warm up", ham curls, leg extn, sometimes leg press (depends how the no-knees are feeling) - 5sets of 12 reps for all leg movements, then start upperbody with lat pulldowns and whatever else takes my fancy (ie shoulder, back, chest, etc).

Just getting back into it after focussing too much on my studies over winter. Felt that I wasnt gaining once I went to a split system, and motivation dropped as my prioritories shifted to Uni stuff, so I'll be sticking to an all over routine for the next half a year I think....

[jangles]

Nice read Markos....

so, what is the suggestion for someone who CANT do squats (impossible for me)?

SLDL's also seem to want to make my legs collapse, so I dont do them as its not worth injuring myself over (cant do bent leg)

from what I understand: build those thighs, and the rest of the body 'gains'

I stick to calf raise as my "warm up", ham curls, leg extn, sometimes leg press (depends how the no-knees are feeling) - 5sets of 12 reps for all leg movements, then start upperbody with lat pulldowns and whatever else takes my fancy (ie shoulder, back, chest, etc).

Just getting back into it after focussing too much on my studies over winter. Felt that I wasnt gaining once I went to a split system, and motivation dropped as my prioritories shifted to Uni stuff, so I'll be sticking to an all over routine for the next half a year I think....

Is there a medical condition/reason for no squats/deads?