Gym And Supplement Discussion

[TTT]

ATG squats is not in starting strength.

YNDTFP

[TM7GTR]

So your having some success with starting strength then! Assuming that's 90kg for 5x5 yeh?

How's the dl and bench numbers?

Yeah 90kg for 3x5 full depth. It's time to bump that up though to 92.5 or 95 possibly

So 5 days straight per week!! I guess that's doable if its only upper body twice per week...

Well because I'm on holiday right now, I can get good sleep, good nutrition, and loads of nanna naps if needed, so it's not too demanding. It works out to essentially be upper body 5x per week though if you're familiar with the starting strength program.

[TM7GTR]

ATG squats is not in starting strength.

YNDTFP

I don't even have a clue what that abbreviation means, and I'm part of the young generation......

What's wrong with squatting ass-to-grass?

[Mitcho_7]

I'm guessing it means something along the lines of "you need to fix your post" ?

[TTT]

You're Not Doing The f**king Program is what it stansd for.

Have you read any of Rippetoes books or watched his instruction videos or even check his forum out?

Nothing wrong with ATG squats.

My point was saying you are doing SS program and then saying ATG squats and bi curls and other associated shit that is not in the program is that YNDTFP

And if you read any of his responses on his forum you'd see what I mean.

He has his theories behind his method of squats, the number of days training, the number of reps and sets, the food etc etc.

so saying

Starting strength - Mon, Wed, Fri

Tuesday - back, bi's, core

Thursday - chest, bi's, lateral & posterior delts, core

means YNDTFP

[-FIGJAM-]

hmmm, Rippetoes workout is for gaining strength rather then actual lean size isnt it?

I am thinking of cutting back to 3 days a week in the new year, but also getting back into some MMA for fitness.

Will mean that I will have to eat heaps more to make up for the cardio, but I have to increase my fitness as it is beyond embarrassing.

[-FIGJAM-]

oh and Tom, what TTT is getting at is a point that I found when googling Rippetoes

Most people cant get it through there head that compound lifts also work your arms Plenty and always Insist on direct arm work. As quoted by Madcow2, “Don't **** with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything.” If you are one of these people note that you have the option of doing the dips and chins which give PLENTY of arm work. Abdominal work is fine to do also if needed

But each to their own i guess

[TTT]

hmmm, Rippetoes workout is for gaining strength rather then actual lean size isnt it?

No..

Lifting weights is for strength/power/awesomesauceness

eating is for more size or less size depending on if you are a man or lady (respectively)

[TTT]

Makes no difference to me how you lift or what program you do etc.

But a structured program put together by a coach has been done so for some reason.

They don't usually just slap a bunch of shit together and then push their product....

So I just don't get when people say "I'm doing this program" but what they are doing is so bastardised that it looks nothing like the program.

SS is pretty straight forward.

DAY 1 - Mon

Squat 3 sets, 5 reps

Bench 3 sets, 5 reps

Deadlift 1 set 5 reps

Day 2 - Wednesday

Squat 3 sets, 5 reps

OH Press 3 sets, 5 reps

Power clean 5 sets, 3 reps

Day 1 - Friday

Squat 3 sets, 5 reps

Bench 3 sets, 5 reps

Deadlift 1 set 5 reps

Next week starts at Day 2 - Monday

There are no workouts for tuesday or thursday or a bunch of other exercises.

Those rest days are there for a reason.

Tuesday - back, bi's, core

Thursday - chest, bi's, lateral & posterior delts, core

If you did SS as it's written then you would be doing Bench on Monday and Friday, but then adding another chest day in Thursday in the above work out.

And if you had just done OHP and power cleans on Wednesday, then is there a need to do delts and core the day after?

What you're actually doing is, taking bits of SS and stuff you want to do and creating your own routine out of it.

And there is nothing wrong with that at all.

But that is not the SS program.

Not sure if anyone has heard of DOGGCRAPP

The guy who put that program together would RAGE when people would change his program somewhat and then would ask questions because they weren't getting the results they were after or go on bodybuilding forums and respond to people asking about it and saying it doesn't work etc.

There is a method to the madness of lifting programs that successful coaches put together.

As I mentioned before..

I did SS for a good 6 months or so.

the reason I ended up changing is because my deadlift was getting left behind.

but when squatting 3 times a week, every week, it was hard to add more deadlift work.

So I changed to PPP (Markos' program).

My squat went up a little bit but my deadlift went up 35kg in 2 cycles of his program.

His program is Very different to SS.

As Markos keeps saying..

Everything works, nothing works for ever.

I'll add "injuries happen" to that statement.. lol

Edited December 20, 2012 by TTT

[-FIGJAM-]

what was Rippetoe's program originally designed for?

Is it just a beginners workout? I thought more strength training then size or muscle definition because SS stands for "starting strength" if I am not mistaken (which I could be because i am reading it from bodybuilding.com)

Also claims that people have gained 30-40 pounds in 6 months, I find that a little hard to believe even if they are eating the recommended 3000-4000 calories a day.

just some questions.

[-FIGJAM-]

and I also understand that i need to fix my diet to gain weight

[Dani Boi]

what was Rippetoe's program originally designed for?

Is it just a beginners workout? I thought more strength training then size or muscle definition because SS stands for "starting strength" if I am not mistaken (which I could be because i am reading it from bodybuilding.com)

Also claims that people have gained 30-40 pounds in 6 months, I find that a little hard to believe even if they are eating the recommended 3000-4000 calories a day.

just some questions.

Strength

Sort of. You gain size on starting strength provided your diet is sufficient...how many people have you seen squat say 150kg and have sticks for legs? In saying that strength and size are not directly proportional so you would benefit more from a hypertrophy routine as opposed to strength in regards to size but you really should get decent numbers on your lifts before you even think about doing a hypertrophy based routine IMO.

Yeah 34 pounds of fat and water and 6 pounds of muscle if that. Those are the people that follow GOMAD which is stupid, good way to blow calories way over what your body actually needs.

Oh oh, you used the word definition for a strength based program.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Dani Boi

[TTT]

Yes it is aimed at beginners.

Yes it is a strength program.

getting bigger muscles is a side effect of getting stronger.

how big you get or don't get depends on how much you eat.

you might be 80kg and have a max squat of 100.

you could stay 80kg and increase your squat to 160 if you wanted to.

Rip also recomends GOMAD - Gallon Of Milk A Day (close to 4L of full cream milk)

40-60lbs of body weight would not be out of the question if you did his program and ate that much food and milk.

see if you can find his article on a guy called Zach (I think it was)

keep in mind that he does not say 40-60lbs of lean muscle.

Close to half of that will be fat.

if you are in your late teens or 20's those sort of gains are easily achievable.

burning the fat later is also easy.

EDIT

Found the article for you..

http://startingstren...ct_rippetoe.pdf

seems it was 55lbs in 11 weeks.

They also did a before and after fat test..

Pics are in the article too

There is a video of the kid doing squats and chugging on the 3L bottle of milk in between sets.. lol..

Edited December 20, 2012 by TTT

[-FIGJAM-]

yea I tend to agree with you Dan, sure if I hate 3k calories a day id put some quick size on, but is it the size you want to put on???

There is no way I could drink that much milk, I literally throw up these days after having milk, no idea why as it never used to happen. Doctor doesnt understand either, just says its Reflux.

I might give it a go next year when Im back from the states, see if it and a better diet does anything (not expecting miracles though).

Is it the normal 2minutes rest between sets on his routine?

Anyway to do it without a spotter? Could you replace say bar bell bench with dunbells? I know you said dont basterdise it, but how heavy can you go without a spotter type of thought comes to mind.

[TTT]

rest as much as you feel you need.

Lift in a power cage with the safety bars set correctly and you don't need a spotter.

If you are lifting somewhere where you can't get a spot, don't have a power cage, can't eat enough, want to change stuff around..

well I don't know what else I can say that I already haven't...

Markos has a go at saying it recently..

Note - he is refering to this previous article.. - http://ptcfrankston.com/doc/newsletter/PTC_Newsletter_IssueNo37.html

PTC NEWSLETTER

# 174

#37 REVISITED

Newsletter # 37 is the one that’s been sent to the most people, placed on the most forums and I dare say read the most. It’s the one I’ve received the most thanks for, it’s also not been controversial, which is unusual in itself.

I want to start with training. Since then, I’ve seen proof that heavy low rep lifting has been MUCH more successful in altering a lifters body composition than higher rep lighter stuff. It is also easier to maintain any progress. Many, many lifters to study, not just their lifting, but also their habits and intelligence.

Intelligence may throw a few, thinking I’m being a smart ass. I’ve seen people not change their habits for 3 years, yet watch others soar past them, in physique and strength, while they continue to do as they’ve always done. They ask me what the “other” guy or girl is doing. It’s not a secret, I wrote about it 137 issues ago.

This brings me to habits. Habits you form are crucial to success. Preparing meals at night or before work are a must. There is no substitute. I don’t care if you have a chef at work preparing meals for you, that’s a bad habit. Form good habits.

Things come up, we live in a society where social functions are common. The most successful lifters I have plan functions around training, those that plan training around functions are the ones that continually ask me what the “other” guy or girl is doing.

I really can’t stress enough how important it is to form good habits. I don’t mean that you squat once a week, that’s a given. A good habit is NEVER missing a workout. Of late, a few clients who have good success, have started to miss sessions. They disregard my opinion when I mention things to them in a jovial way, like I’ve never seen it before. It’s like they’re intent on proving me wrong.

Other recent observations is how women, overweight women, think lifting heavy weights makes them huge. When they relay that to me, I always ask if they’ve been lifting heavy weights. Only a few get it. My 3 strongest consistent female lifters weigh between 54kg and 58kg. They do no running or cardio, they lift heavy weights, eat sensibly, consistently. I think the chumbawannas want to believe there is an easier way. It is the simplest way, trust me.

Another mistake some make is the belief that sweat is an indicator of hard work. Sherro is sitting in front of me right now, sweating while he is eating chicken and rice. Sweat is the bodies cooling system for when were hot. It’s not a sign that you’re working hard, it’s a sign you’re hot. Squat 250kg for five doubles, you won’t be sweating, but damn you will have worked hard. Do 30 minutes of jogging on a treadmill, you should be sweating, trust me when I tell you that you’ve done nothing. That’s not an exaggeration, you’ve done nothing but use electricity that could be used to cook food.

One of the tricks PT’s use is to have clients superset everything, lots of work in a limited time, makes the client think they’re working hard and they’re getting value for money.

No they’re not. With training, its quality not quantity. Flapping you’re arms about in a gym does not mean you’ve trained hard or even trained, it just means you’ve been to the gym.

So often clients that train once a week with me and do their other work at commercial gyms, never seem to progress. I share a joke with Max and Nina, waiting for an ex client to come back stronger. Were five years old now, still waiting. Structured training will ALWAYS win over fluff based quantity or isolation work at the commercial gym.

I would love to write up all the former full time clients who are not as strong as they were 2-5 years ago. Why is this so accepted? I really don’t get it. My psychologist client tells me its denial, the strongest human emotion.

One more time, there is no substitute for consistent, progressive, resistance, training, using the basic lifts, with a rep structure that allows for around 25 reps per basic movement, whether that is 3 x 8 or 5 x 5, 6 x 4, 4 x 6, 8 x 3, 12 x 2. Don’t go looking for the most complicated advanced program you can find, work hard on the basics, form good habits, be smart.

Eating. Easily the simplest to understand, the most difficult to get right. The reason most fail here is because of emotion. Then there are those that claim to eat enough to gain weight, but they never gain. Reason being is because they don’t eat enough. No need to go into that, it’s a fact. Eat more. And fatties, eat less processed carbs, you know this, you just want someone to tell you otherwise.

For anyone interested, I do diets for those that want to lose weight, that allows you to choose 5 foods you really like, and I’ll include them in your diet. These diets cost $250.

If you include extra foods, that’s another $50 per food chosen, special rate of $400 for 10 foods. I can also include a program where you do nothing and lose weight, gain muscle, for an extra $250. That’s right, do nothing.

Supplements. Here is a little secret, you don’t need them. A good protein powder, maybe some BCAA’s and Glutamine after training in a shake, that’s it.

Eat some food for f**ks sake. The most anabolic hormone that the body produces is insulin. Insulin is released by the pancreas when we eat food. Skinny f**ks, eat some food. My pancreas died, and for around 5 years I couldn’t gain weight, in fact, keeping it on was impossible. I was diagnosed as a type 1 diabetic at 50. I am now on insulin, as my pancreas no longer produces insulin. In March I was 65kg, I am now 97kg, no weight training yet, but I’m finally getting insulin, the most anabolic hormone in the body, more anabolic than testosterone. Eat food. Don’t worry about your abs, worry about how small and weak you are. Your abs will be hidden under some fat while you build some muscle, by eating lots and lifting heavy.

Now those of you that want to build muscle, lose fat, eat what you like and be the envy of all your friends, deposit $650 into my account.

If you want to lose fat, you won’t be building muscle, unless you pay $650 of course.

Make a decision, skinny, weak and ripped, or huge, smooth and strong. If anyone tells you this is possible to achieve being huge, lean and strong, from your current state of small, fat and weak, with one diet, unless you payed me $650, is a liar.

The training is irrelevant regardless of your goal, squat, press, pull and variations, add weight consistently to the bar.

Eat for your goals, clean for lean, big for big.

Now, you guys won’t believe what just happened, Max, Sherro, Zoran, Ross and Armando are witnesses.

Sean has stopped training, stopped caring. He has just walked in and told me about a meal plan where some company prepares your meals for you.

Go back to habits.

Max didn’t come in and mention it, my longest training client, Alen didn’t, it was Sean, who just admitted he can’t get his diet right and he struggles with planning.

Sean never formed good habits.

Don’t be a Sean.

Markos

[TM7GTR]

Oh wow, didn't that just stir up a shit-stew.

Firstly, let me just state that I know the stuff I do on the other days isn't related to Starting Strength, and no it isn't the effing program. I'm doing the program as well as doing my own program at the same time.

Now to go through every other post and try to address it all - inb4 TL;DR

Yes I've read all the forum crap about his program, and yes I've seen many many times that you shouldn't add exercises that aren't related to the program on the "rest days"

To address this, and FIGJAM's quote about not needing to work arms, I'll say the following...

1. My strength has been increasing on every lift except bench. I have found a few sticking points in the lift, and my extra chest session is aimed at improving these points (heavy negatives, lower-pause-lift, etc.)

2. I have always been under the same impression that you don't need to work arms if you do the compound movements frequently, such as dips and chin ups. Well let me just say, just like every other damn aspect of fitness, EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. My arms have only just started to see major improvement after regularly hitting triceps after every SS session, and biceps on my extra days in between. This is just doing 1-2 exercises on these days mind you, not having a dedicated block of the session.

What may work for you, doesn't work as well for me ^.

3. Due to the fact that SS has no direct lateral or posterior work, yes, I feel there is a need to do this as assistance work. Nothing pisses me off more than people who couldn't give a shit about balancing their musculature. IF you wanna look like a frigging gorilla from only doing bench and mill presses most of the time, and having an anterior tilt to your shoulders, be my guest.

4. To do with the above point, see it from a different perspective. I'm doing starting strength to improve my strength before continuing on with a bodybuilding type program, then maybe some olympic powerlifting. Everyone has different goals, and mine isn't to be as strong as possible, it's to have functional strength as well as the physique I desire, and to enjoy training.

Starting strength is a GREAT program, but it bores the absolute shite out of me, so I'll change to something else before eventually coming back to the program.

As argued over many times in this forum before, some people need to get over themselves. I'm not saying the way I'm training is in any way right, but it works a treat for me right now. STRENGTH TRAINING, OLYMPIC LIFTING, AND BODYBUILDING DIE-HARDS NEED TO BE MORE OPEN MINDED.

5. If you read my post, you'll see that I stated I get adequate rest, and adequate sleep.

6. I eat a shit ton of food right now... It's the holiday period.

7. I'm sorry, but I would not be doing Starting Strength if my goal was to increase MUSCLE MASS. OVERALL MASS will increase if you're on a GOMAD diet as well as eating tons of food, but this will just help you become stronger.

If you want to increase your muscle mass, time under tension during a higher rep-range with higher volume and lower frequency will be far more beneficial. Challenge me, do your research. There's enough studies out there to back this up as well as anatomical knowledge of the breakdown and rebuild of muscle fibres.

I swear people training for strength are always referring to overall body mass rather than lean muscle mass; this would make sense.

TTT, you have even stated yourself that you could stay 80kg and squat 160kg, so when FIGJAM asked if the SS program is to increase strength, yes, that should be the primary goal.

So when you say getting bigger muscles is a side effect of getting stronger, you're kind of contradicting yourself mate.

Yes you could eat tons of food while doing so and get up to about 100kg BW, but you'll be gaining a ton of fat rather than muscle.

Higher frequency compound lifts training for strength has nothing to do with lean musculature. It has everything to do with training the neural pathway to recruit the muscle you already have, more efficiently.

FIGJAM could do any damn program out there and gain overall body mass through eating like a small whale.

I haven't changed my diet significantly, and the only time I gain weight is when I train to increase my muscle mass (hypertrophy training). So go figure, until I added my extra days to COMPLIMENT starting strength, I wasn't gaining any extra weight.

TY men

[Trozzle]

inb4 tl;dr

i read da hole thing. i agree wif it.

[TM7GTR]

Mitch, as above my bench is shit, knocked it back 10kg to work through it myself without a slight spot to 75kg lol. Deadlift is up to 135kg 3x5reps

[-FIGJAM-]

the only spot i worry about is bench, squats and deads are easy by yourself for 5 reps.

eating enough needs to be sorted out.

I honestly dont think that my issue gaining size has anything to do with how I workout, because I have gotten slightly bigger and so has my training partner. My issue is all food food and more food.

My only thought was if this would be a decent routine whilst getting back into the mma.

I might still give it a go and if I sort my diet and am not happy with results, I'll work to a normal 3 day chest/tris, legs/shoulders and back/bis

also decent post Tom, read the entire thing. Thanks for the thoughts

[TM7GTR]

the only spot i worry about is bench, squats and deads are easy by yourself for 5 reps.

eating enough needs to be sorted out.

I honestly dont think that my issue gaining size has anything to do with how I workout, because I have gotten slightly bigger and so has my training partner. My issue is all food food and more food.

My only thought was if this would be a decent routine whilst getting back into the mma.

I might still give it a go and if I sort my diet and am not happy with results, I'll work to a normal 3 day chest/tris, legs/shoulders and back/bis

also decent post Tom, read the entire thing. Thanks for the thoughts

You can answer this question yourself mate. What aspects of fitness are most important to MMA?

I would say flexibility, strength, speed and endurance.

This is what I mean when I say make your training specific, rather than some bro-scientist telling you to do this, that, and the other.

If you feel SS will be a good starting point, then try the program.

You won't know until you try it, and if it's not for you, try something else. Just make it specific.