Gym And Supplement Discussion

[topher_]

f**k music, i like to listen to myself going YEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH BUDDY and LIGHTWEIGHT

[Birds]

Agree very much so topher. Nothing better than taking advice from people in real life whom the advice has actually worked for. I too was taught the ways by my dad and his mates at Finlays, a few of whom competed at national and international level in bodybuilding and powerlifting. Looking at those guys I could only listen to what was said and it's worked out well for me so I'm very happy. One of these guys used to do nothing but eat every minute of the day...we hardly saw him working out because he was always eating lol. It worked though, he was a real big bastard.

I too wanna see the bodies on these fellows

[topher_]

Agree very much so topher. Nothing better than taking advice from people in real life whom the advice has actually worked for. I too was taught the ways by my dad and his mates at Finlays, a few of whom competed at national and international level in bodybuilding and powerlifting. Looking at those guys I could only listen to what was said and it's worked out well for me so I'm very happy. One of these guys used to do nothing but eat every minute of the day...we hardly saw him working out because he was always eating lol. It worked though, he was a real big bastard.

I too wanna see the bodies on these fellows

lol i train at doherty's in dandenong and ronnie coleman came down a couple months ago. Was hoping to get some pics with him but the fat kent was eating for literally 45 + minutes so i got over it and went home -_-

Edited January 8, 2010 by topher_

[25GTT]

f**k music, i like to listen to myself going YEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH BUDDY and LIGHTWEIGHT

Good Ole Ronnie..

"Nothin But a Peanut!"

[rev210]

Multiple sets are great for breaking down muscle...it is something that has to be done over time. Properly training them to rebuild in response to the resistance requires a reasonably frequent constant resistance, not a sporadic occurrence once a month. You can't break them down in a single fail set or 1 minutes of lifting per month because in 20 minutes time you'll be able to do the same thing again. Any gains you see are most likely natural muscle and weight. And how ignorant the whole world is spending their hours and hours at the gym I think alot of you minimum sets / maximum weight people would struggle to get through anything that requires stamina. Overtraining is a bullshit term that's overused by people who can't be bothered spending time at the gym. Real overtraining isn't doing too many sets at the gym to break down the muscles, it's not giving the muscles any decent recovery time.

Sorry Birds, thats completely incorrect. I'm not sure who told you this. If you want to do some reading there is plenty of info around on myology with refference to muscle use in weight training. You can then understand why the statements you just made aren't accurate at all.

To help illustrate just one section of the myth that if you train heavy you lack muscular endurance. That is if you take what I am doing then you are assuming I would perhaps perform poorly in a multi set or muscle endurance level. This is wrong for a simple reason, both of these are anaerobic of nature still. Why this occurs is basic. As you grow more fibres not only does the mechanical strength improve for the motion but, also additional fibres have a cumulatively higher volume of stored glycogen to fuel the movement. I've actually proven this to a few mates over the years when they have put me to the test thinking they would show me up, even after I explained what was going to happen and why.

Studies have found there was is performance increase at 40, 60, 80% of relative new training stimulus to test this.

I'll use the data from one of these, using both male and females, it is considered from the point of view of determining how much the original lighter-load tasks changed after strength had been improved, the results are very impressive for justifying the benefits to be derived from strength work. The following table indicates the results of this one.

Activity Before After % Change

Bench Press

1RM 62.5 kg 76.7 kg 22.7%

80% original load 7.6 reps 15.0 reps 97.4%

60% original load 16.9 reps 24.8 reps 46.8%

40% original load 38.9 reps 49.8 reps 28.0%

Squat

1RM 74.2 kg 101.9 kg 37.3%

80% original load 8.0 reps 20.7 reps 158.8%

60% original load 21.7 reps 38.5 reps 77.4%

40% original load 52.3 reps 77.2 reps 47.6%

Implication. Heavy resistance training did benefit performing the same activity when it was performed at the original intensity. This suggests that heavy training improves muscular endurance, that is, repetitions with weights of a lighter resistance. An example of this effect would be that improved maximal strength would allow an original resistance (not maximal) to be repeated more times.

Overtraining in terms of too many reps or sets is also very much a reality. It's a term usually that's not well understood and so it can be used wrongly, I'm not assuming I actually know what you really mean so I'll leave that.

On the down side. I personally think that strength training whilst very good is also something that has down sides. The nervous system, tendons and bones do not adapt as fast as the muscle can and therefore strength training requires a 'go slow' for recovery and volume simply for this reason.

The small time commitment means you can start thinking you are not getting 'good value' out of your gym membership and because you miss out on endorphins of higher volume training you have less biological encouragement to keep it up. Not to mention you don't take advantage while you are there to do cardio and fitness work. It's too east to quit.

So Birds, whilst I think your scientific understanding of whats going on needs a little help. I would absolutely agree with you that doing some volume training the good old muscle mag way not only doesn't hurt for looking better but, it's a pretty decent way to stay motivated. Better than strength training. But you can always do some 'cycles' of both. So try it out, I'd reccomend it.

[dezz]

yeah that is a pic of me.. this was me before training about 15-16 months ago second from left.

I get all my info from people who have had many years experience training such as my old man who used to compete in the early 90's and my uncle who has been training for 18+ years and still training. No offence to anyone but i don't really like getting info from internet bb's like on bb.com because all they really do is just sprout shit they read on another forum. That's not to say i don't take any info off the net, there is a wealth of knowledge if you look in the right places.

I guess i was lucky having them two growing up because they always used to drill into me how important it was to squat and dead lift so it is just natural for me to do it i guess. However they are both a fan of DB kick backs which got bagged before, i never used to do them but my uncle used to make me do it because he claimed it's gives you a good horseshoe (which is starting to come out good for me now).

But yeah end of the day everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just because they aren't doing what you are doesn't make them wrong. everybody is different and different things work for different people but the main thing people don't seem to understand is that no matter how hard you lift in the gym you won't grow unless you eat enough. There is a guy who is a personal trainer at my work and laughed at me when i told him how many calories i eat and said you don't need to eat alot to grow. how are you supposed to grow when calories burnt are more then calories in? In all honesty i probably eat a bit too much and have put on a bit more bf % then i should have but i don't care because i am just making sure i am getting enough food into me to grow and i'm gonna lose the fat when i cut anyway so why risk putting myself short in the growth department? There are a few people who like to give me shit and try and call me a fat flamin mongrel with no idea but these are the same people who ahve been going gym for a few years and made no progress at all, all they need to do is look at off season BB's and see how much fat they carry to realise that they infact are the idiots with no idea -_-

Eating is great, but don't forget to mention hitting the gear...I dare say that helped as well..

[R31Nismoid]

Well a normal run is 10-12 weeks depending.

^ So from that to current in 15 months is still a LOT of effort in my book.

Those 10 or so weeks would help, but by no means is all the work done in that period

[dezz]

Well a normal run is 10-12 weeks depending.

^ So from that to current in 15 months is still a LOT of effort in my book.

Those 10 or so weeks would help, but by no means is all the work done in that period

Quote the part of my post where I said his entire progress can be attributed to gearing..

From memory I think he posted he did 2 cycles too..

[R31Nismoid]

Quote the part where he's already said he has used - cause its in this thread - anyone reading it already knows

[Birds]

Rev, very good points and I agree with you, the science behind it and the study. I also commend you for using a study because it's empirical evidence seldom found on a forum discussion. The study results are to be expected because something is always going to be better than nothing, though I am surprised at how effective it actually was. However, my problem with the study results contesting what I said is that after the training was implemented they are still testing only one set for maximum reps until failure...which is exactly what they were training for. Had they tested stamina in multiple sets after the training you would see even less improvement over the 2nd and 3rd sets because they weren't training for this kind of stamina, only single set failure. In contrast when I do 6 sets of 10 reps I still have plenty of energy and muscle strength for the 6th set because I do 6 sets each time...I've trained my muscles for this kind of stamina...lots of resistance over lots of time.

Thank you for stating the downside to your training...that's a very honest thing to do and important to note for prevention of injury. Your workout seems more effective than I once thought, however I gather from your writing that you're in agreeance my kind of training will ultimately take you further with respect to both stamina and physical appearance, albeit at the expense of more time in the gym.

[rev210]

Rev, very good points and I agree with you, the science behind it and the study. I also commend you for using a study because it's empirical evidence seldom found on a forum discussion. The study results are to be expected because something is always going to be better than nothing, though I am surprised at how effective it actually was. However, my problem with the study results contesting what I said is that after the training was implemented they are still testing only one set for maximum reps until failure...which is exactly what they were training for. Had they tested stamina in multiple sets after the training you would see even less improvement over the 2nd and 3rd sets because they weren't training for this kind of stamina, only single set failure. In contrast when I do 6 sets of 10 reps I still have plenty of energy and muscle strength for the 6th set because I do 6 sets each time...I've trained my muscles for this kind of stamina...lots of resistance over lots of time.

Thank you for stating the downside to your training...that's a very honest thing to do and important to note for prevention of injury. Your workout seems more effective than I once thought, however I gather from your writing that you're in agreeance my kind of training will ultimately take you further with respect to both stamina and physical appearance, albeit at the expense of more time in the gym.

The study I put is just one really basic one, there are plenty of others that do in fact test to greater levels of fatigue. The results are identical in each basically because larger muscle mass means the muscle body carrys more glycogen. It is a larger petrol tank. It's a basic fact of muscle performance in the anaerobic regions of training.

The other day I had a friend who trains multi set question me on the same point. Believing he was right ,challenged me to 4 sets of pushups to exhaustion with 1 mintue rest between. I don't do push ups at all or as you know any multi sets. He managed 50 / 44 /40 /35 to my 65 / 58 /55 / 51 he's 10kg lighter, more ripped and far fitter. I had already explained to him what the result would be and why, he was shocked. If you could take 10kg off my weight I would have made a fair few more reps and done even more damage to his ego.

I'm still sore from doing it tho

I don't agree your training will necessarily take you further or faster to stamina or physical appearence.We haven't shared much detail of either of our programs. If we were going on results alone you and I being the same height (6ft3), I'm going on 37, I'm 101kgs and leaner than you and my body/muscle size proportions are almost spot on based on the body building asthetic ratios, then it would be tempting to say that based on time spent, the fact that I'm much older ( don't have the youth advantage), it appears my program works better. But, this doens't take into account a variety of factors like genetics. Nor does it indicate where our individual goals are actually targeted. Perhaps you are aiming at being 140kgs at 7% BF ? So this would be an irrellevant comparison for us to get into.

As I said before though, spending time in the gym is actually a great habit to be motivated for, so I'm not keen to go telling people in a good habit to potentially ruin it and maybe the social aspect of the training which also can be great fun.

Edited January 8, 2010 by rev210

[GHOSTrun]

Hate to say it but pretty much everything Birds has said in this thread is not the best advice.

[Birds]

We shall agree to disagree then...

[Birds]

Hate to say it but pretty much everything Birds has said in this thread is not the best advice.

Whatever man, it works for me just as it did my father and his friends so any contest to my advice means SFA to me. Truth is, no advice given in this thread by anyone has changed the workout of anyone reading this thread, because everyone is strongly set on their own ways so it's a giant moot point even giving advice in the first place. Except for that guy who asked me for a workout plan...he did listen and time will tell with that one I guess. Oh well.

[IOWNU]

What's wrong with that? Kid just wants bigger arms and that will get him that, quite safely too. All I did when I was 15 was dumbell curls at home and my arms blew up using this isolation exercise. If not done properly squats and deadlifts can damage your back. I do tons of freeweight compound exercises; they're my favourite...but any mates at the gym who have been out on injury are no coincidence the freeweight fans. And don't say it's because they don't know how to do the exercise, because professional powerlifters injure themselves from time to time...and more frequently than body builders I might add. We're not perfect beings, we all stuff up once in a while. The difference being that machines and isolation exercises are safer because there are less variables to it...that's why they're trained to instruct clients using them. If I was a personal trainer looking to keep his job and his clients that's where I'd be heading too.

First point, doing curls will give you bigger arms to an extent, they will not give you big arms (on their own or as part of an isolation based workout).

Second point, anything can damage your back, the point is, gym instructors advocate that this is highly likely as opposed to unlikely. I deadlift over 200kgs and squat around 190kgs, back is going strong.

Third point, I mean this will all due respect..hmm how to phrase this, your method may work to an extent, is isn't the best method, it isn't the quickest method and it most certainly isn't the most effective/efficient method. I guess if it works for you, that is cool, however, don't promote it as THE method.

Birds - there is so much wrong with what you are saying that I'm not even going to bother arguing.

Agreed, but the only way he is going to get it is if we try and rationalise with him as opposed to telling him that he is wrong full stop.

IOWNU and GTST

c'mon boys show us the guns, im curious to see how you fellas look like

Sure thing buddy, click on my username to the left (or check out my profile) for a very old flexed pic of my arm and find below an oldish relaxed pic, i don't really take pics of myself often, at the moment they'd be slightly bigger with a little more definition. Arms vary from 16.75"-17.5" flexed cold depending on whether I'm cutting or bulking. Although I don't think guns are the best way to measure a look lol. Again, fair few boys on the forums know me personally lol.

Sorry Birds, thats completely incorrect.

Hate to say it but pretty much everything Birds has said in this thread is not the best advice.

Just quoted those lines to elucidate that generally speaking, your arguments lack substantiation. Again, no disrespect.

Whatever man, it works for me just as it did my father and his friends so any contest to my advice means SFA to me. Truth is, no advice given in this thread by anyone has changed the workout of anyone reading this thread, because everyone is strongly set on their own ways so it's a giant moot point even giving advice in the first place. Except for that guy who asked me for a workout plan...he did listen and time will tell with that one I guess. Oh well.

That is the thing, there is no one magic way to put on size and shape. As above, various methods can work, but the quickest method is

focus on compound movements, throw in some isolation work for a laugh. If you are a massive unit, just keep doing what you are doing haha.

And don't, please don't, listen to the jesters at Fitness First et al.

[Birds]

I never said that my methods were the best, only that they work for me and when it comes to increasing stamina they are sure as hell going to do it better than 1 minute of lifting per month. Now you tell me in your third point that my methods aren't the quickest but then go on to say compound movements are the quickest? 80% of my workout is compound movements. Anyway, a while back in this thread I stated that no singular workout is best for everyone and there is more than one way to achieve your goals; why I'm coming across as the workout Nazi is beyond me when it is others who have stormed the thread with 'you must do compound and core' and 'people in the gym for body image are wankers' sentiment.

I'm not massive in my own terms, but I am happy with my size...given I was 61kg at the same height (6'3") when I first started gyming, having come up to a trim and toned 87kg at age 23 with a size 32 waist and very low body fat, I'm very satisfied with what I've achieved and I'm far from finished. I use compound movements in conjunction with isolation...and I don't disagree that compound is where it's at for muscle size...but I feel you guys under emphasize how effective isolation exercises can be in achieving muscle mass and strength. Don't need short course personal trainers and I don't use em mate, mine were the wrestlers on television and my father.

[rev210]

I never said that my methods were the best, only that they work for me and when it comes to increasing stamina they are sure as hell going to do it better than 1 minute of lifting per month.

Hang on a second... I can't stand around and listen to you say you have more stamina than me. I will totally whoop your ass in terms of weight lifting stamina, with my 1 minute a month tiger-crane technique

See if you can do 229 pushups in 4 sets with only 1 minute breaks like I did the other day (controlled, ridgid spine/neck, right to a wisker off the floor), you should kill my attempt since you are 14kgs lighter and 14 yrs younger if your theory is right

Edited January 9, 2010 by rev210

[IOWNU]

I never said that my methods were the best, only that they work for me and when it comes to increasing stamina they are sure as hell going to do it better than 1 minute of lifting per month. Now you tell me in your third point that my methods aren't the quickest but then go on to say compound movements are the quickest? 80% of my workout is compound movements. Anyway, a while back in this thread I stated that no singular workout is best for everyone and there is more than one way to achieve your goals; why I'm coming across as the workout Nazi is beyond me when it is others who have stormed the thread with 'you must do compound and core' and 'people in the gym for body image are wankers' sentiment.

I'm not massive in my own terms, but I am happy with my size...given I was 61kg at the same height (6'3") when I first started gyming, having come up to a trim and toned 87kg at age 23 with a size 32 waist and very low body fat, I'm very satisfied with what I've achieved and I'm far from finished. I use compound movements in conjunction with isolation...and I don't disagree that compound is where it's at for muscle size...but I feel you guys under emphasize how effective isolation exercises can be in achieving muscle mass and strength. Don't need short course personal trainers and I don't use em mate, mine were the wrestlers on television and my father.

Hey man, most of my comments were general, not having a go at you (like the Fitness First comment at the end etc.)

To be honest, I haven't really looked at your specific program (I got put off this thread early days by some of the dumb comments)

but whatever works for you, it just APPEARED to me from what you wrote that you were exceedingly pro-isolation work, 80% compounds is sweet and

clearly it works for you. But an isolation based workout (which lets face it, is the most promoted type of workout in gyms in Australia) is doomed from the onset.

On that note, there is the other extreme. There is the anti-everything else camp, squat or nothing lol. I know guys like that too who train purely for strength.

I guess I'm in the middle, I train for looks and strength, my physical appearance being more important. Incidentally for me, both of those factors seem to be somewhat intertwined.

[some_cs_student]

Hey man, most of my comments were general, not having a go at you (like the Fitness First comment at the end etc.)

To be honest, I haven't really looked at your specific program (I got put off this thread early days by some of the dumb comments)

but whatever works for you, it just APPEARED to me from what you wrote that you were exceedingly pro-isolation work, 80% compounds is sweet and

clearly it works for you. But an isolation based workout (which lets face it, is the most promoted type of workout in gyms in Australia) is doomed from the onset.

On that note, there is the other extreme. There is the anti-everything else camp, squat or nothing lol. I know guys like that too who train purely for strength.

I guess I'm in the middle, I train for looks and strength, my physical appearance being more important. Incidentally for me, both of those factors seem to be somewhat intertwined.

Pro-isolation workouts are standard at a commercial gym, and the increasing use of isolation equipment is a little worrying

Strength and looks are intertwined in general, although it all depends on your perspective, and what you consider a "good" look, it also depends how fast you want to get the look, compound training in general is a faster way to build-up but I've seen a few big looking guys at the gym...they don't actually bench properly (1/2 way bench at most) but they do look big depending on your definition, and if that's their aim...

That said, I'm on the strength / compound training is extremely important side of the argument and I'll keep most of my opinion out of here...

[Birds]

Hey man, most of my comments were general, not having a go at you (like the Fitness First comment at the end etc.)

To be honest, I haven't really looked at your specific program (I got put off this thread early days by some of the dumb comments)

but whatever works for you, it just APPEARED to me from what you wrote that you were exceedingly pro-isolation work, 80% compounds is sweet and

clearly it works for you. But an isolation based workout (which lets face it, is the most promoted type of workout in gyms in Australia) is doomed from the onset.

On that note, there is the other extreme. There is the anti-everything else camp, squat or nothing lol. I know guys like that too who train purely for strength.

I guess I'm in the middle, I train for looks and strength, my physical appearance being more important. Incidentally for me, both of those factors seem to be somewhat intertwined.

That's the funny thing, I haven't even posted my full program and people are already challenging me to biggest dick competitions. I can see how I might have come across as all pro-isolation and I apologise for that, I was merely defending the use of such techniques by personal trainers because I believe there's more reasoning to it than just ignorance on every personal trainer's behalf. I agree, an all isolation workout is nowhere near as effective for core and overall strength compared to compound workouts, but it can certainly do wonders in the looks department and that's what 95% (bullshit statistic) of the clientele at commercial gyms are there for.

Hang on a second... I can't stand around and listen to you say you have more stamina than me. I will totally whoop your ass in terms of weight lifting stamina, with my 1 minute a month tiger-crane technique

See if you can do 229 pushups in 4 sets with only 1 minute breaks like I did the other day (controlled, ridgid spine/neck, right to a wisker off the floor), you should kill my attempt since you are 14kgs lighter and 14 yrs younger if your theory is right

That's a pointless exercise (pun) and my answer is no. I'm not even going to attempt it for the following reasons / excuses / whatever you want to call them:

-The 50,000 variables involved. Genetic disposition, balance of weight in the body, diet, mental disorders. Even if we were identical twins this would be a flawed test.

-I haven't seen you do them; how you do them; how fast/slow; positioning of arms.

-Even if I see a video I have no proof it's actually you.

-Even if you prove it's really you I have no proof that the extent of your exercise is only 1 minute of lifting per month.

-This is a forum discussion/argument, I don't like to let the internet infiltrate any part of my real life. Once the computer goes off that's the end of it.

-Pushups are not part of my exercise routine, I have no proof they're not a part of yours.

-I know people who exercise but have never lifted a weight in their lives and can clipse your pushups count because they train in body resistance.

-I could lie and say I beat you by x amount.

-My only competition when it comes to exercise is myself and I like to keep it that way.

You know what rev, you're absolutely right...your methods are ultimate. Why are these olympic athletes wasting their time spending hours in the gym when all they need is 1 minute a month? That's only 48 minutes worth of training between each olympics. They don't know what they're missing out on with the pleasures of arthritis and tendonitis at age 50 either. I wasn't the only one who called bullshit on your methods and weights in this thread either - there's a good reason for that.