Gym And Supplement Discussion

[Dajae]

I think you really have to figure out what your goals are, and cater your expectations to them. If it's all about 'strength', then don't be upset when you don't make the scales budge too quickly. The reverse is true for 'mass' orientated goals... your strength tends to take a back seat.

Depending on your true 'training age', Doggcrapp can be a very viable option. Sucky name, but the program is absolutely awesome... In my case, I got strong a bunch faster than 5/3/1, and my mass also jumped up quite nicely in a short period of time. Google Doggcrapp, see what you think. I was super sceptical at first, but decided what the heck, tried it, and loved it.

Word of warning though, from what I can tell, you're either built for the type of training, or you aren't. If you have 'below average' or 'average' genetics, and you aren't consistent with nutrition and rest, then you'll find recovery can be a bitch. Realistically though.. this principle applies to any program. But IMHO, more so with DC training.

FIG, can you define what you mean by minimal results?

[L33SH]

I think you really have to figure out what your goals are, and cater your expectations to them. If it's all about 'strength', then don't be upset when you don't make the scales budge too quickly. The reverse is true for 'mass' orientated goals... your strength tends to take a back seat.

Depending on your true 'training age', Doggcrapp can be a very viable option. Sucky name, but the program is absolutely awesome... In my case, I got strong a bunch faster than 5/3/1, and my mass also jumped up quite nicely in a short period of time. Google Doggcrapp, see what you think. I was super sceptical at first, but decided what the heck, tried it, and loved it.

Word of warning though, from what I can tell, you're either built for the type of training, or you aren't. If you have 'below average' or 'average' genetics, and you aren't consistent with nutrition and rest, then you'll find recovery can be a bitch. Realistically though.. this principle applies to any program. But IMHO, more so with DC training.

What's your training exercise program currently look like?

[-FIGJAM-]

I think you really have to figure out what your goals are, and cater your expectations to them. If it's all about 'strength', then don't be upset when you don't make the scales budge too quickly. The reverse is true for 'mass' orientated goals... your strength tends to take a back seat.

Depending on your true 'training age', Doggcrapp can be a very viable option. Sucky name, but the program is absolutely awesome... In my case, I got strong a bunch faster than 5/3/1, and my mass also jumped up quite nicely in a short period of time. Google Doggcrapp, see what you think. I was super sceptical at first, but decided what the heck, tried it, and loved it.

Word of warning though, from what I can tell, you're either built for the type of training, or you aren't. If you have 'below average' or 'average' genetics, and you aren't consistent with nutrition and rest, then you'll find recovery can be a bitch. Realistically though.. this principle applies to any program. But IMHO, more so with DC training.

FIG, can you define what you mean by minimal results?

weight barely changed even though i was eating a lot more and drinking 2 liters of milk every day

lost noticeable definition around arms, shoulders and triceps. Chest got rounder no other noticeable changes. Obviously change in diet impacted here

strength gains were slow and no different to any other program that I had been on. At the time i thought they were faster but after looking back on months of training logs they werent. The only thing it did do was get me past my bench wall

my fitness levels seemed to drop as well even further then they already were. Again noticeable whilst i played oztag and I would also say diet played its part here

[Dajae]

What's your training exercise program currently look like?

So, my current program follows a "ABA/BAB" training split. Training is split across 2 days ('A' and 'B'), and the body is divided up between these days. 'A' days you train Biceps, Forearms, Calves, Hamstrings, Quads. 'B' days you train Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, Back "width", Back "thickness"..... all in that order. I know, seems weird doing the harder stuff last right? The only exception to this rule, is the Hamstrings and Quads. If for hammies you're doing an exercise which relies a fair bit on the lumbar spine area (think RDL's, SLDL), then you do that after your quad work.. generally selecting an exercise for quads that's easier on the lower back.. such as machine hack squats, leg press, etc.

Everything is done with the "rest-paused" style sets as I was talking about before, except for calves, forearms, deadlifts, and quads. Calves and forearms just get one set to true failure... Quads you do one heavy set to absolute failure, rest a short period of time (60 seconds or less.. I like 45 seconds), then reduce the weight and bang out a "widow maker" set, which is basically just a 20-rep set done to true failure. After each exercise, you do deep stretching, except for calves. For calves, during the working set, it's a 5 second negative, followed by 10 seconds in the bottom position.. The stretching part is SUPER hard to explain though, I'll try and link some videos for you

The general idea with exercise selection, is you choose for each body part, 3 exercises. You rotate between these over the 2 week period, doing each exercise once, before repeating. Alright, so here goes.. apologies in advance for how lengthy it is!

A1:

EZ-bar preacher curl

EZ-bar reverse curl (preacher bench)

Leg press calf raise

Lying leg curl machine

Barbell squat

A2:

Dumbbell curl

Dumbbell hammer curl

Seated calf raise machine

Machine hack squat

Romanian deadlift

A3:

Barbell curl

Dumbbell hammer curl

Leg press calf raise

Glute-ham raise

Leg press

B1:

Flat dumbbell bench press

Hammer strength shoulder press

EZ-bar skull crusher

Close grip chin up

Seated cable row (v-handle)

B2:

Incline barbell bench press

Overhead press

Parallel bar dips

Pull ups

Deadlifts

B3:

Flat barbell bench press

Seated dumbbell press

Close grip bench press

Wide grip lat pull down

Seated cable row (ropes)

So there you have it. For each body part, you're aiming to complete in a specific rep-range. For example, when I do Triceps work, you want all of your reps combined to total around 11 - 20 reps, depending if you're after a more strength-or-size based training response. I'm currently sitting at 39 total reps with a 12kg dumbbell strapped to me.. 25, 9, 5. Too many reps, but oh well.

You're striving to add weight every workout.. If your gym has micro weight plates (750gm, etc), then this will be easier when you become stuck on something. But for some weird reason, adding weight in this training program seems so much faster than anything else I've done. If you add weight, you have to match or beat your old numbers. Don't match or beat twice in a row, you lose that exercise and have to choose something else.

weight barely changed even though i was eating a lot more and drinking 2 liters of milk every day

lost noticeable definition around arms, shoulders and triceps. Chest got rounder no other noticeable changes. Obviously change in diet impacted here

strength gains were slow and no different to any other program that I had been on. At the time i thought they were faster but after looking back on months of training logs they werent. The only thing it did do was get me past my bench wall

my fitness levels seemed to drop as well even further then they already were. Again noticeable whilst i played oztag and I would also say diet played its part here

This was for 5/3/1 right? I found a similar response when I tried it.. Lost a significant amount of muscle weight, strength increases were slow at best, and it just wasn't that "fun".. Clearly, I was just one of those people who didn't respond well to 5/3/1.. Oh well, take it as a lesson and move on, I did

What does your nutrition look like at the moment?

[Dani Boi]

A1:

Squat

A2:

Bench

A3:

Deadlift

B1:

Squat

B2:

Bench

B3:

deadlift

Fixed your routine bruv

[The Bogan]

LOL, though I would have some OHP in there as well.

[bozodos]

OHP > Bench IMO.

Yeah I'd seen reference to DC training in the 5/3/1 book - there's a chapter on it. Rest/Pause training. Suited only for the disciplined who are eating a lot. You also don't rest / pause for squat or deadlift.

You can work 5/3/1 with DC training.

[-FIGJAM-]

This was for 5/3/1 right? I found a similar response when I tried it.. Lost a significant amount of muscle weight, strength increases were slow at best, and it just wasn't that "fun".. Clearly, I was just one of those people who didn't respond well to 5/3/1.. Oh well, take it as a lesson and move on, I did

What does your nutrition look like at the moment?

yeah I gave it ago and wasnt for me at least not for a long period of time.

havent hit the gym for 6 months so nutrition hasnt been a focus of mine at all. However plenty of rice, chicken, steak, veggies as of late. Less fast food is good, not much milk and too much soft drink.

getting back into the gym now (first day back was today) so will take some time to slowly get my workout right again and nutrition will basically increase what I have already been eating. Drink will have to change but i'll get to that

[-FIGJAM-]

oh, i did do a few crossfit sessions not long ago but had to stop due to medical reasons which has been explained

[bozodos]

yeah I gave it ago and wasnt for me at least not for a long period of time.

what sort of assistance were you doing with it?

[-FIGJAM-]

what sort of assistance were you doing with it?

Nothing to begin with but added in leg press, back extensions and maybe (cant remember) db incline chest press

Over head press progressed nicely but I had never done it before with a squat bar so no real way to compare

[L33SH]

is overhead press the same as shoulder press?

[bozodos]

no, shoulder press is done with upper arms already paralell to the ground, totally different movements. It's a favourite with the other people who go to my gym - I'd estimate that 95% of the other people who train there do at least standing shoulder press, if not standing, seated and incline.

5/3/1 would not be enough volume for most if done without any assistance at all - this calculator here http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

I do the Simplest Strength template currently, but I might cross over to BBB after a few cycles.

Edited April 1, 2014 by bozodos

[L33SH]

So what's better to do, shoulder press or overhead press?

[Dajae]

Fixed your routine bruv, if you were a powerlifter.

Fixed your comment, bro.

OHP > Bench IMO.

Yeah I'd seen reference to DC training in the 5/3/1 book - there's a chapter on it. Rest/Pause training. Suited only for the disciplined who are eating a lot. You also don't rest / pause for squat or deadlift.

You can work 5/3/1 with DC training.

I'd say it's arguable that one be better than the other. It's goal dependant. You can also load a bench press (be it with either dumbbells or barbell) higher than the OHP, which, again, depending on your goals, can lead to better progression, and more 'work' performed.

Agreed! Without pharmaceutical assistance, you need to be spot on with rest and nutrition. By "spot on" with nutrition, I don't necessarily mean clean either that's correct.. No rest pausing for those. The 20-rep sets for quads more than make up for it. With the deadlifts I just bang out sets of doubles until I complete a new PB. Micro plates are awesome.. picked up some 250gram ones of the interwebz for cheap.

Interesting.. I've seen DC training principles applied to a few different programs. I find favour with keeping to it's roots though.. just a personal thing.

yeah I gave it ago and wasnt for me at least not for a long period of time.

havent hit the gym for 6 months so nutrition hasnt been a focus of mine at all. However plenty of rice, chicken, steak, veggies as of late. Less fast food is good, not much milk and too much soft drink.

getting back into the gym now (first day back was today) so will take some time to slowly get my workout right again and nutrition will basically increase what I have already been eating. Drink will have to change but i'll get to that

oh, i did do a few crossfit sessions not long ago but had to stop due to medical reasons which has been explained

Crossfit. Shudders.

Go white rice. People harp on about brown rice this, brown rice that.. pfft, over rated unless you're cutting for a comp. Fast food is awesome! I usually allow myself 2 occasions a week. 2 big macs, McChicken, and a large chocolate thick shake. Best post-squats meal ever. (personal opinion of course lol) .. Any reason for lowering the milk?

So what's better to do, shoulder press or overhead press?

I'll have to find the study, but IIRC, EMG tests showed a statistically insignificant benefit from lowering the upper arms below parallel, in regards to the lateral head. However anterior head activity was increased with upper arms going below parallel. In other words.. If you're after complete shoulder muscular development, it's not always necessary to have your upper arms going below parallel. If you're hitting enough chest pressing exercises, and coupling that with x1 - x1.5 amount of upper back/back exercises, then shoulder presses will give you great results.

However, if you are a Oly lifter, then it makes sense to use a push press type movement, to mimic the movements within a clean. If you're a powerlifter, OHP's are probably going to benefit you more due to the anterior head getting more stimulus, which will carry over to your bench somewhat greater.. Useful because that is what your sport requires. A big bench.

For the bodybuilders and 'average dudes/dudettes' just looking to get fit and look good, then shoulder presses will give you more than adequate results, and most likely will keep your shoulders healthier too. Due to the majority of people having absolutely shocking thoracic posture and forward-head posture, OHP's tend to worsen these issues. Not to mention people tend to neglect the back musculature.

Short answer..... it depends.

[L33SH]

I need to perform thoracic spine exercises due to my old infraspinatus injury, I also want to work on increasing my bench press weight by adding in a few assistance exercises now that I can exercise without pain

[Dajae]

If you venture on youtube much, you may have come across a guy called Elliott Hulse... his channel 'StrengthCamp' has some awesome videos on thoracic spine health. Some people enjoy watching him, others find his videos too "pseudo sciencey" ... I'm part of the former.

For me, increasing weight on any exercise is about trying to move an established weigh faster on that exercise. What kind of assistance work are you thinking?

[L33SH]

haha I love Elliot!

I used to do decline bench, incline bench and shoulder press, so I'd like to add something back in to help develop my upper body strength the exercises my program currently has in it is bench, squats, deadlifts, lat pulldown and abs.

[Mitcho_7]

Why not do both ohp and shoulder press?

Do barbell ohp in a 5/3/1 style or whatever you chose and then have shoulder pressing as an assistance exercise...

You can make 5/3/1 have more volume and still follow the same principles. Pretty sure the dude wrote about it in one of the 5/3/1 books

[The Bogan]

My assistance exersises are my 4 main lifts but with a set and rep range of 5 x 10, lowered to a count of 3 held for 2 then explode up as fast as I can.

To many people in my opinion focus on every assistance exercise out there but not enough on the big compound moves, I am far from being the biggest unit in the gym but I am stronger than most of the big guys, strange but true, but then they do spend alot of time standing in front of the mirrors doing curls and checking their hair.

There is nothing I love more than sharing the rack with some big unit only to pull or push alot more weight than them, the looks on their faces is priceless, its like they are thinking " how is this little guy showing me up, doesn't he know I've got big biceps".

The looks from the women is also for the win, yes I am vain in that way, having some bird come up to you to show them how to squat can be a extremely fun task.