The Gas Thread

[pixel8r]

Hi fellow Stagea owners,

Just thought I'd start this thread to put all this info in one place. Recently this has been discussed somewhat in the Stagea Fuel Economy thread (link below):

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/St...html&st=160

and this has got me thinking that maybe I might even consider switching to that "other" fuel sometime if the results are as good as they say.

I would average 25,000kms a year, including an interstate drive once a year and several weekend holidays.

According to my quick calculations, with premium unleaded here in adelaide now around $1.58 (ouch!) and gas still under $0.70, I'd be saving around $40 a week on our current usage, or something around $2000 a year.

Taking into account the $2000 govt grant (plus $1000 if you're in WA), even a $4000 conversion will be paid off in 12 months, and I'd be saving roughly $2000 a year after that.

LPG is now common enough in petrol stations that there are not many places in australia you cant go with just LPG. Plus LPG is 100RON I believe. Have also heard of premium LPG but not sure where this is available.

I'd be looking at a dedicated LPG system if I was to do it, because I've had bad experiences with dual-fuel systems in the past and dont like the idea of two different tune settings, which are incompatible and it just never seems to work well.

I'd like to retain the current performance of the car, if not increase it a little more (I've been wanting a fuel pump for a while anyway so this is 2 birds with 1 stone).

So I've created this thread to discuss options for converting to LPG, both for myself or for anyone else who might be thinking of this.

I really like the idea of the newer Gas Injection setups but this would depend on the cost - or more so how long it would take to recoup this cost.

Another concern I have is of reliability. My stagea has been extremely reliable, and I'm not willing to sacrifice reliability, even if it means paying more in the long run.

Please join in and discuss - especially people who work with or have experience with LPG systems on stageas/skylines.

[stasis]

i think i read somewhere in the past saying that the LPG's ron is like 110.

[mike40sydney]

couple of issues with it for me ...1 will you still retain the performance on lpg.my truck gets around 110 klms less per tank of gas than a tank of fuel ie both tanks hold 50 litres and hasnt anywhere as near the pulling power of petrol......2 where would you fit the tank without sacrificing valuable space.when i got truck gas was 37 cents pl 2 years ago that was around a 3rd of the price of unleaded in that time its crept up to 72 cents a litre which is half the price of unleaded .me think govt trying to recoup the grants.

[Stinky Rooster]

couple of issues with it for me ...1 will you still retain the performance on lpg.my truck gets around 110 klms less per tank of gas than a tank of fuel ie both tanks hold 50 litres and hasnt anywhere as near the pulling power of petrol......2 where would you fit the tank without sacrificing valuable space.when i got truck gas was 37 cents pl 2 years ago that was around a 3rd of the price of unleaded in that time its crept up to 72 cents a litre which is half the price of unleaded .me think govt trying to recoup the grants.

The problem is, 99% of gas setups are set towards economy rather than performance. Maybe the guys fitting and tuning them are too used to working on taxi's?

There are actually enormous performance advantages for boosted cars running on gas, but they have to be set up properly.

Have a read here to understand the difference (I don't personally agree with some of their assumptions, but it will give you a good understanding of the difference between gas systems from 10 years ago compared to gas injection systems available today)

http://www.gas-injection.com/lpg-gas-injec...chnologies.html

Performance issues with gas have been disproved again and again. There is a hilux 2wd ute running around Perth at the moment with a RB20DET running str8 gas and after watching this thing bust a few skids at last years motorvation (biggest WA car show we have) I can say that they will DEFINATELY not make you car slower.

[webng]

I would love to keep my stag in the long run but it sure is hurting the wallet, even more so for most of us then pixel8r who seems to have a pretty fuel efficient S2 as it is.

For me...

1. Performance and reliability CANNOT be compromised. That's why we bought the car in the first place right.

2. How safe is it? Having a gas tank sitting behind the child car seat...

3. Additional running cost, not just cost of lpg.

4. Total cost and time to recoup. If pixel8r's cost estimate is accurate'ish, and the above satisfies, i'm sold, where do i sign.

[rb26stagea]

I would love to keep my stag in the long run but it sure is hurting the wallet, even more so for most of us then pixel8r who seems to have a pretty fuel efficient S2 as it is.

For me...

1. Performance and reliability CANNOT be compromised. That's why we bought the car in the first place right.

2. How safe is it? Having a gas tank sitting behind the child car seat...

3. Additional running cost, not just cost of lpg.

4. Total cost and time to recoup. If pixel8r's cost estimate is accurate'ish, and the above satisfies, i'm sold, where do i sign.

I think you'll find there'll be a fair few engine-specific teething issues for something of this magnitude. Bags not being one of the first 20 people to do an RB26 on gas. For my money, I'll watch from the sidelines for a while, and see how it plays out. I would nee to see very solid results in performance applications (let alone safety) in a setup the same, or at least very close to mine before I committed.

The question is not, "am I paranoid?"

The question is, "am I paranoid enough?"

[pixel8r]

As far as safety goes, they must be pretty good. You dont hear of gas tanks exploding in cars (well I dont anyway) and there are plenty on gas. Probably just as likely to have your petrol tank catch fire as have your gas tank explode...

As for space, I mentioned I'd want to run it as a dedicated gas setup if I was to do the conversion and so hopefully you could replace the petrol tank with a gas tank in the same position. I believe it has been done before, to get a gas tank mounted underneath the car, but I dont know any more details on that. might be more expensive and require a different tank or it may not be possible and I could have heard wrong...

I know there are skylines and stageas on gas, but like others mentioned its a case of how many compromises have to be made.

I have a brother in Perth with a V8 AU falcon which he's just fitted a SGI (sequential gas injection) system to and along with simple mods like exhaust and intake is making something like 160-170kw at the rears. He had one issue with the system and had to get it fixed but since then it has worked fine as far as i know.

I have taken fuel economy into consideration (based on people's experience with gas vs petrol mileage) with my calculations of around $2000 savings per 25000km. Most calculators will work by comparing to the regular unleaded price but I did mine based on the price of premium unleaded - which then works in favour of LPG.

As for webng's point number 4, thats exactly the reason I'm thinking of it. Previously I've been very much against LPG but with current advances in technology and the price of petrol, its now looking like a very attractive option and a real possibility.

[Stinky Rooster]

...... Bags not being one of the first 20 people to do an RB26 on gas. For my money, I'll watch from the sidelines for a while, and see how it plays out.......

I dunno, you young blokes of today

Srsly, there have been some amazing leaps in the understanding of the processes. f'r instance, did you know that there has been a ECU developed here in australia specifically for boosted LPG applications? Check out a back issue of Perth Street Car (Vol 14 No1) for a really informative article and Q&A with one of the original developers.

http://www.perthstreetcar.com/index2.htm

[RS4StagMan]

The following is a copy of what I posted in the "Stagea Fuel Economy Thread on 3rd Jan, 2008.

I've included a copy here as I think it is quite relevant to this thread.

" Some people have mentioned running these cars on LPG a few posts ago -"chukie" +"sinky rooster" etc.

I thought it fitting that I share my fuel consumption figures that I have so far got with my dedicated LPG Series 2 Stagea Neo engine. (Note - yet to be dyno tuned).

Taking an apples vs apples approach, on the same trip that I do daily, 5 days a week (approx 50% highway, 50% city)

Petrol consumption was approx between 13.5-15.5 litres/100 (98 RON).

LPG consumption is approx between 15.5-17.5 litres/100 (100 RON)

The LPG figure is quite good and was about as expected considering the quicker burn rate of LPG compared with petrol.

I would like to see if the dyno-tuning and/or running on "premuim LPG" (100% propane-105+ RON) will have any change on the fuel economy. The "premuim LPG" is available as I understand from a few select places here in Melbourne metro area direct from the bowser.

To make way for the LPG system, the fuel tank was replaced with a manifold tri-cylinder pack in the same location under the car- thereby not affecting the wagon/cargo space at all which is the way I wanted it.

The car still needs to go back to be properly dyno tuned, to dial in a bit more timing advance as LPG thrives on this, and other final adjustments but initial indications are that the system fitted performs very well given that there are no performance modifications to the car at all.

The installers/tuners who performed the work specialise in performance LPG conversions- All those sub 12 sec RB30 Turbo Nissan powered VL Comoodores you may have heard about? "

[RS4StagMan]

The following is a copy of what I posted in the "Stagea Fuel Economy" Thread on 5th Jan, 2008.

I've included a copy here as I think it is quite relevant to this thread.

" *Stasis* agree with most of your comments with regards to alternative fuel sources however LPG has always sufferered a stigma mainly due to the general public's misconceptions in our part of the world, not widely accepting the fuel as an alternative for mainstream and performance applications.

I did a lot of research into the LPG conversion before it was carried out and even before I imported the car, including the following;

1. Dual fuel vs dedicated LPG

2. Sequential gas injection (SGI)- both vapour and liquid vs. Gas Research Throttle Body (+ mechanical injection for turbo application)

3. Tank in boost vs keeping the cargo space free

4. Performance and economy compared with Petrol

5. Drivability/Cold Start/Tuneability/Maintenance/LPG Availability

6. Payback calculation

7. Accredited/Experienced Workshop in turbo LPG Conversions

etc, etc

For my particular situation, the payback after the $2000 Federal Government grant (WA gets an additional $1000 state grant) is 9 months, based on;

Monthly Savings $189

Payback Period 9 months

Annual Savings $2268

Weekly Savings $44

Based on: Annual Km:25000

Petrol Consumption 15L/100km

Cost of petrol/Litre:$1.45

Cost of LPG/Litre:$0.65

Conversion Cost $1750

These potential savings are indicative only

based on a range of fuel consumption.

Calculations include the benefits of Federal (and State) Government grants (rebate).

Using this calculator here

http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/index.cfm?action=MyCar

LPG, under current legislation, will be excise free until 2011, where the excise is due to increase at 2.5 cents per litre until it reaches a ceiling of 12.5 cents per litre in 2015. By comparison, the current excise on petrol in 38.1 cents per litre.

http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/index.cfm?Action=Faq#12

I think in my case I'm happy to pocket $6808 ($2268 p/a*3 years), even before the excise starts to come in. That's a bit of extra cash to fund modifications/insurance/reg/tyres/maintenance etc or put into investments or fund lifestyle etc.

I wonder what the price of petrol vs LPG will be in 2011, 2015, 2020 or later years given the huge demand on energy by growing nations like India and China?

Sorry now back to the topic, my car currently does go through about 20% more LPG than petrol (Not dyno tuned yet however), so the efficiency of the process has been reduced, but my fuel running costs p/a have decreased by about 50%.

I would strongly advise anybody considering going to LPG to research the possibility thoroughly. Contrary to popular belief, it definately can be done on a turbo car with some great results.

BTW: I wouldn't consider it on your lovely (rare) Autech 260 RS, but a big heavy SUV- maybe? To a Stagea- Done! "

[RS4StagMan]

The following is a copy of what I posted in the "Stagea Fuel Economy" Thread on 8th Jan, 2008.

I've included a copy here as I think it is quite relevant to this thread.

" My calculations are based on total conversion cost of $3750 less $2000 Government grant already claimed= $1750 out of pocket cost based on Gas Research system. http://www.gasresearch.com.au/

I considered the SGI (sequential gas injection) system however opted for the proven GRA dedicated LPG performance setup on this occasion.

The Profile SGI system (still under development according to their website, show a Skyline R33 GST with 180RW/KW) looks quite good, but at $7K-$8K, even with $3K subsidy (in WA), your payback would be quite long, however would expect the SGI LPG fuel economy (l/100km) to be better than GRA - almost rivalling petrol on a like vs like basis?

Some pics of the SGI R34 Skyline would be great.

Agree with your comments on extensive development having already taken place to date (& continual development) in Europe on SGI LPG setups in the last few years-Tartarini, Easyjet, BRC, Teleflex, Icom JTG liquid injection etc. "

Edited January 21, 2008 by RS4StagMan

[oxford1327]

hello all

i raised this question myself a while ago on here just to see what ppl thought, in the past i have hed 2 dedicated gas cars one of which was a 350 chev powered bogan mobile (SS Torana Hatchback) which had 328 HP at the rears it was a twin gas research system and it worked fantastically once it was tuned properly and fitted with the correct cam profile etc.

i had the car in that config. for 8 years and was a bit of a development mule for the local gas fitter so he could convert his drag car to the same setup, it was an EJ panel van with a 454 in it that ran mid 9 seconds on C16 or AVGAS, once the gas research was fitted he was running sub 9.5 seconds over the quarter.

so i have been seriously considering doing the conversion of late, to save on both fuel and coin.

i am still undecided as to whether to go ahead with it but will endeavour to do some more research first.

anyway that be my 2 cents

cheers oxford

[stasis]

ohh i forgot. Did you guys know that AC snitchzer germany realeased a V10 engine running on gas? Will post it up tommorow after i scanned the article.

[tm_r33]

LPG used to have a fairly high RON (105+)... But these days tests show its actually down in the 90's despite what servos claim it to be!!! LPG is aimed at service vehicles such as taxis and alike. Defiantly not aimed at the performance car owners looking for a few extra K's to the tank!

[pixel8r]

LPG used to have a fairly high RON (105+)... But these days tests show its actually down in the 90's despite what servos claim it to be!!! LPG is aimed at service vehicles such as taxis and alike. Defiantly not aimed at the performance car owners looking for a few extra K's to the tank!

I thought LPG was like 100RON these days. Also rather than "a few extra K's to the tank", I think gas is more likely to be aimed at people looking for "a few less $'s per km".

Converting to LPG isn't everyone's solution, and may not even be mine, but I'm going to look into it and talk to workshops about it to get some idea of feasibility.

LPG can be used in performance cars and has been very successful at this, so regardless of who its aimed at, its been proven to work well

[tm_r33]

Every one will always have a different opinion on LPG.. i guess its just one of those topics. Even though im not a fan, the next person might find it a great idea...

The tests i saw a few months back revealed under 100 RON...

[webng]

Who in Adelaide would you trust to do your conversion?

...

Converting to LPG isn't everyone's solution, and may not even be mine, but I'm going to look into it and talk to workshops about it to get some idea of feasibility.

LPG can be used in performance cars and has been very successful at this, so regardless of who its aimed at, its been proven to work well

[RS4StagMan]

From the BP website specification on LPG Autogas;

- Motor Octane Number (MON) 93

- Research Octane Number (RON) 100 (approx.)

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do...ntentId=7016925

From the Shell website specification on LPG Autogas;

- Motor Octane Number (MON) 92 MINIMUM

- Research Octane Number (RON) - Not specified

From the Caltex website specification on LPG Autogas;

- Motor Octane Number (MON) - Not specified

- Research Octane Number (RON) - 100

http://www.caltex.com.au/products_oil_detail.asp?id=138

Couldn't find the info on the Mobil LPG product on their website.

What is important to note is that all the oil companies are required to meet the same "ALPGA Specification 2000" for auto LPG.

Auto use = Approx. mix of 50% Propane + 50% Butane.

The word in Victoria at least is that the best place to fill up with LPG is out of the Metro area, in the rural areas where companies will commonly only send 1 tanker with LPG (100% Propane) to mainly satisfy the townships that do not have reticulated mains natural gas for heating, cooking etc and have onsite LPG cylinders. When the tanker is in town, it also fills the local Service Station's tanks and what do you know.......100% Propane (= 105+ RON).

I have found a company here in Metro Melbourne area where 100% propane (105+ RON) is available all the time from the bowser.

Quote " The tests i saw a few months back revealed under 100 RON..."

I think this is quite possible and RON would vary according to many factors.

I think it is true that once upon a time LPG was 110+ RON but these days I'm happy to base my calculations and confidence on around 100 (+/-2) RON average.

It's no secret that LPG responds very well in forced induction engines and has been proven on many occassions for many years in Australia.

Google this " GAS747 - 10.59 @ 130.3 MPH" VLMuzza.

[RS4StagMan]

Who in Adelaide would you trust to do your conversion?

I would start by looking here http://www.gasresearch.com.au/ and looking at the Australia wide approved fitters list to see what they may be able to offer you in SA.

[stasis]

F*cking DROOLL!! bitches!!! Behold the world most advance in terms of performance ever built on the surface of the planet. Street legal of course :)

Yes its on LPG!!! german engineering at its best1!

www.ac-schnitzer.de