The Gas Thread

[Lil_Bobby_260]

doesnt running gas make you exempt from emissions testing...? being that it burns clean?

On that note but off topic - i wonder if a gas conversion to autechaxis' 2004 M35 would allow it to be complied being that the issue is that they fail emmission laws.

Back on topic - a guy who works in the ame building as me runs an 8 with the 4age, running a small turbo and straight gas - for performance purposes. Gets grea mileage per dollar and being that it has the appropriate cams and tune, does MUCH better than it would running petrol.

[chuckie]

HELLO EVERY BODY,

just thought i would post some info on my r34 gtt four door that i converted to lpg injection.

it runs a power fc, piggy backed by a prins gas ecu. which drives 6 gas injectors (hopefully 12 soon)

i have a 50lt tank in the spare wheel well which gives me 370k's at 70c a lt @ 100+ octane.

the only problem with gas (in a street car) is that a LEGAL gas tank is limited to about 300kw max.

i have attached a pdf of my car when it was dynoed, it shows both the gas and ultimate 98 graphs as it is dual fueled, if it was dedicated gas it would be alot better.

shane @ force fed gas in cockburn perth installed the system http://www.forcefedgas.com.au/. Great bloke great service, we both learnt alot from the install.

since installing the set up i have done about 5-7000 klm's and would deffinitly spend the $5000 again esp since we get $3000 back from the government.

regards

chris

HERE IS CHRIS`S SET UP,CHEER`S CHUCKIE

[pixel8r]

Who in Adelaide would you trust to do your conversion?

Not real sure on that but I'm moving to brisbane to live in 2 weeks so I'm pretty sure there'd be heaps of qualified places up there that do LPG conversions on performance cars.

[RS4StagMan]

Theres another similar thread in the "Forced Induction" section of the forum that some may find interesting.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/R3...html&hl=lpg

Chris Barge's R34 GTT Skyline running dual fuel, Prins LPG Injection, Power FC with Prins LPG piggyback ECU, 14 PSI on stock turbo, 13.97 secs 1/4 mile, 182 RW/KW on LPG!

[RS4StagMan]

I have found a company here in Metro Melbourne area where 100% propane (105+ RON) is available all the time from the bowser.

I have recieved numerous PM's about my LPG conversion requesting additional info. I will endevour to provide some more info after official dyno testing has been done......the car has so far done about 20,000 (faultless) kms on the Gas Research System and drives really good on the road.

I have also tracked down the company (who is Australia wide) can supply "Premium LPG" from the bowser. This is 100% Propane and is reported to be 105-110+ RON LPG.

I filled up my dedicated LPG V8 Statesman today with this stuff at same price as normal Auto LPG (normal Auto LPG is a mix of propane/butane) @62.2 cents/litre and the car drives much better.

I am yet to try it on the Stagea and would be interesting to see how it drives on 100% propane.

Apparently performance LPG machines thrive on this stuff and all of their metro melbourne service stations only stock the 100% Propane.

www.supagas.com.au

[pixel8r]

Just thought I'd dig up this old thread and see if anyone knows if the M35 can be converted to LPG.

Contrary to my post at the start of the thread, this time I'm more interested in Dual-fuel and probably just a SGI setup - since LiLPG seems to be (excuse the pun) vapourware at this point in time...at least for custom setups like we'd need.

[iamhe77]

What are you talking about Steve?

Australian LPG Warehouse have falcodore as well as Xtrail LiLPG kits available... from what they tell me.

I did ask about a custom kit being made up for M35's an was told ~$5k and would have to wait until later in the year due to time being taken up with mass market kit development and installs.

Dunno how the VQ25det will handle the LiLPG though... (will have to seriously look into it when we move house next year)

[pixel8r]

What are you talking about Steve?

Australian LPG Warehouse have falcodore as well as Xtrail LiLPG kits available... from what they tell me.

I did ask about a custom kit being made up for M35's an was told ~$5k and would have to wait until later in the year due to time being taken up with mass market kit development and installs.

Dunno how the VQ25det will handle the LiLPG though... (will have to seriously look into it when we move house next year)

oops my bad. However it still looks like custom kits are still on the waiting list.

My preference is probably still with SGI at this stage just because its been around longer. I realise the LiLPG systems have been in use in other countries for years but its still "new" here as far as installer expertise etc is concerned.

Not sure where to get a conversion done in SA though...

I also like the idea of dual-fuel just in case there are tuning issues with lpg, although it'd probably mean losing the spare wheel and only having a "repair kit"....hmmm.

[LordMidol]

My parents got gas put in their XR6.

3 computers fried. Ford and the gas company refuse to cover any costs. $12,000 out of pocket.

I got my falcon converted but there is no way in hell I am letting any lpg installers play around with my stagea especially when it is such an uncommon car and they wont have the experience with htem.

[iamhe77]

Interestng little tid-bit regarding LiLPG.

If you get one of these systems made up, they currently NEED to be dual fuel, you will need to start up on petrol for 30-40 seconds then switch over to your LiLPG system.

The reason, I am told, is that the LPG will vapourise in the lines when not in use, thus no fuel on startup.

I would imagine they will find a way around this... in time

[Angus Smart]

One of the guys i go to the snow with installs lpg for a living, he kept geeing me up all season to get it fitted to the stagea..

said it wouldnt be a problem.. but bah f**k that i like petrol!!

[pixel8r]

Interestng little tid-bit regarding LiLPG.

If you get one of these systems made up, they currently NEED to be dual fuel, you will need to start up on petrol for 30-40 seconds then switch over to your LiLPG system.

The reason, I am told, is that the LPG will vapourise in the lines when not in use, thus no fuel on startup.

I would imagine they will find a way around this... in time

oh? I thought they could only use these systems as LPG only, due to them essentially sharing the same injectors (do they? maybe i'm wrong there too. i got the impression it pumps liquid LPG through the same fuel lines as well).

Now I'm more interested in these. Only question that remains is what this means for safety compared to a SGI LPG setup. LPG needs to be pressurised in order to remain in liquid form. As soon as any pressure was released in the fuel lines, all the gas would vapourise and expand...which sounds nasty to me. I'm sure they've thought about it, but I'm still keen to find out what happens when things go wrong (with both systems).

LordMidol: There would be a lot of variation with regard to expertise of LPG installers. Since all modern SGI setups require a separate ecu, I cant see them still being in business if the units themselves were that unreliable. The tuning can apparently be tricky though...so thats where the expertise of the installer plays a big part.

If I were to get LPG installed, I'd be looking for an installer with experience in performance and custom setups.

[LordMidol]

My falcon is dual. It switches over by itself. Funnily enough that feature is buggered now I have to start it on petrol and run it for about 2-3 minutes then flick over and even then sometimes the car turns off. I've also had it randomly cut out on the highway before... Installer blamed it on me not getting it serviced so I got it serviced and it did it on the way home.

pixel8r, true, I'm probably being unfairly critical Now that I think about it my installer was probably pretty crap. My main problem was that both the LPG and the car were still under their respective warranties but no one could cover the costs... So if the lpg installer buggers something else then I'm not comfortable that they'd fix it under the warranty. The small claims tribunal (we only went for the max we could go for with them) threw it out and said we had to go to the level above because it was to confusing for him.

[pixel8r]

My falcon is dual. It switches over by itself. Funnily enough that feature is buggered now I have to start it on petrol and run it for about 2-3 minutes then flick over and even then sometimes the car turns off. I've also had it randomly cut out on the highway before... Installer blamed it on me not getting it serviced so I got it serviced and it did it on the way home.

pixel8r, true, I'm probably being unfairly critical Now that I think about it my installer was probably pretty crap. My main problem was that both the LPG and the car were still under their respective warranties but no one could cover the costs... So if the lpg installer buggers something else then I'm not comfortable that they'd fix it under the warranty. The small claims tribunal (we only went for the max we could go for with them) threw it out and said we had to go to the level above because it was to confusing for him.

hmmm that sucks. sorry to hear...

btw is your system the original type (vapouriser box) or SGI or is it the new LiLPG setup?

[LordMidol]

No idea mate.

I'm assuming it the "conventional" type because of this:

http://www.torquegas.com.au/html/sequentia..._injection.html

Those are the guys who installed my Falcons and mums XR6 systems and since they say they only put SVI into cars newer than 2006 and my falcon is a '99 then I assume whatever is considered conventional is whatever is in my car. I still think it was worth it in my car as it only cost around 1k and even then my Dad paid for it (he offered to, very random) and I've saved far more than 1k.

Might do some research into LiLPG and consider getting it in the Stagea but will make sure I go through a decent installer. Now that I'm spending $100 fortnight on fuel (sometimes $200) I am feeling it... Especially when it used to me $40 a fortnight or $80 if I do a ton of driving

[pixel8r]

The SVI systems require their own ecu which allows you to tune the gas setup kind of independently from the petrol. Not sure if the LiLPG setups do? From what I've heard these ecu's are pretty capable as far as what can be tuned, and most people are able to get great results from LPG due to better tuning than the standard petrol tune.

I see this as a huge benefit since a lot of cars that are dual fuel, often run good on one and not so good on the other. Most of the time the car is tuned for LPG and because of this they never run so well on petrol.

I'd want to keep the petrol side of things untouched as a kind of backup solution if there was ever trouble with the LPG system.

[Appealing]

OK, time for a clear up.....

LPG can produce more power, IF the engine is tuned for it.

LPG actually produces less power than petrol in a normal engine, because they cannot utilise the higher power available (compression is too low). Of course you can't have an engine altered and then go back to petrol, cos it will pre-detonate.

In a turbo car you can get and aftermarket ECU, or copgyback which can run 2 maps one for Petrol and one for LPG (with higher boost).

If you only go to dedicated LPG, then you only need a single map, of course the Stagea ECU isn't re-mapable anyway, so you need something aftermarket and tunable.

LPG is about 105 octane and therefore you can run much higher boost, If you look back over the thread there is the R34 Skyline that was done by Force fed. (I had my car booked in and canceled it because in 4 months they still couldn't do it... and I think that it was pretty expensive, ($5,000) even with the rebates available at the time. Anyway this car ran a 13.5 (If I remember right) and still had a bit more boost to go.

LPG is a good alternative, but expensive in set up. It takes more LPG than petrol to produce the same amount of power, but the price difference makes it still worthwhile.

There are no direct injection units widely available yet, and LPG set-ups certainly do not use the same injectors as the petrol. They use a secondary injector drilled and tapped near the inlets. Some of the old systems used an injector up at the entry to the manifold. So the mixture drawn in is gas vapour anyway. You can't inject into a petrol engine like you can a diesel.

That is why they are expensive, (6 new injectors, run by 2 pressure regulators and a few extra sensors along with an aftermarket setup for the ECU). The tank fitment to the Stagea Sucks, big time.

I was looking at a new flat tank, it still isn't on the market (2 years later).

I reckon you're better doing something else with the sort of money it costs. If you want economy by a Prius! ha ha.

Of course you can have both, go dedicated gas and run 2 programs, one for ultimate power and one for economy..... still pricey though.

[pixel8r]

There are no direct injection units widely available yet, and LPG set-ups certainly do not use the same injectors as the petrol. They use a secondary injector drilled and tapped near the inlets. Some of the old systems used an injector up at the entry to the manifold. So the mixture drawn in is gas vapour anyway. You can't inject into a petrol engine like you can a diesel.

you appear to be referring to SVI/SGI (ie. sequential vapour/gas injection) setups. I believe the Liquid LPG mentioned in earlier posts does actually use the same injectors as petrol.

see this quote from: http://www.lpgli.com/features.html (see point 12)

"The same injectors are used to inject petrol or liquid LPG, the injector pulse being varied to give the correct energy density with the fuel being used."

The LiLPG mentioned here is a brand new type of system (well, new to australia) that keeps the LPG in liquid form right up until it enters the combustion chamber, where it quickly vapourises. This type of system has many benefits over previous LPG systems, all of which are detailed on the above mentioned website.

It seems custom performance installs are still some way off, due to the systems being only relatively new to australia.

[BensDR30]

Speak to Brett West at APE regarding LPG - he's done plenty of fancy stuff.

But on another note, Sky084 is running an old GasREsearch mixer setup on his L24-powered MR30 (tuned by John @ Southern Hitech Dyno), and last run was 206rwkw @14psi boost. I drove the car to the SAU:SA dinner, and let me tell you now it has a Haltech E6A controlling ignition, it's smooth and PLENTY powerful!

[kidafa]

S1 RS4V on gas @ ebay Edited November 6, 2009 by kidafa