Sandown Hsvoc - Febuary 10th 2008

[Roy]

Ouch, i chipped a tooth as you went over the back More boost and she'll be right

[Scotsman]

Here is a clip of my little stuff up and the end of the straight and and across the back of the track.

Pft - Nice lap you hack!

[Snowman]

Yep - it's ruined any chance of you ever driving my car Adz. I like my rims too much to let you near my car

[Adz]

Yep - it's ruined any chance of you ever driving my car Adz. I like my rims too much to let you near my car

Your loss

Ill see you on the podium at dutton.. ill be the guy in the middle looking down at you!

[Snowman]

mate - that video you posted last night shows you have as many moments of madness as you do of brilliance so whilst you might occasionally beat me over a single event there's no threat of you doing it over 3 days...

[Adz]

mate - that video you posted last night shows you have as many moments of madness as you do of brilliance so whilst you might occasionally beat me over a single event there's no threat of you doing it over 3 days...

You just keep thinking that sonwy and while your doing it go to the back of the line

[Roy]

Hmmmm. I say its not so much the driver having moments of madness, its the car isnt as consistant as some, say a GTR where the balance between brakes and suspension vs power buy you a bit more room for error.

A GTR is a meat heads car in comparison to a lot of other cars out there, the EVO and STI spring to mind as others that forgive way more then many drivers deserve. Still takes a lot of work to drive them quick, but your mistakes dont hurt you that much...

I will respect Rowdy, Adz and other rwd turned GTR guys telling me they are as knife edged when going quick and i will stand corrected. But the GTR flatters a lot of mistakes/moments

[Scotsman]

Hmmmm. I say its not so much the driver having moments of madness, its the car isnt as consistant as some, say a GTR where the balance between brakes and suspension vs power buy you a bit more room for error.

A GTR is a meat heads car in comparison to a lot of other cars out there, the EVO and STI spring to mind as others that forgive way more then many drivers deserve. Still takes a lot of work to drive them quick, but your mistakes dont hurt you that much...

I will respect Rowdy, Adz and other rwd turned GTR guys telling me they are as knife edged when going quick and i will stand corrected. But the GTR flatters a lot of mistakes/moments

I agree that some GTR are easy to drive fast, because they are fast.

I don't agree that GTR's are easy to drive to their full potential. As they do spit many people off the track.

True ABS can save you from cooking a set of tyres or over braking and loosing it into an armco.

True when the torque is sent to the front of the car this can get a GTR back on track quicker and loose less time than a RWD car doing the same bad manouver.

However, a true 'quick lap' on the edge will not use these 'GTR' features and requires the full attention of the driver.

When you are man handling a 1700kg whale around a track at speeds you need precision and the faster you and the car get the harder it gets. The more money you put into the car the harder it gets to drive it balls to the wall.

Put it this way 'easy' isn't a valid description of lap when I get behind the wheel.

[Bec]

You just keep thinking that sonwy and while your doing it go to the back of the line

HAHAHA - you dont forget things easy do ya

[Roy]

Fact is when you are braking at the limit...you have ABS. So if you out brake yourself then the panic when squeezing a tad harder on the brake... it doesnt always end in tears...just a missed apex. Big deal you just lost 0.2sec

Then you get on the loud pedal with a bit too much vigour...there goes your corner speed and you never get it back all the way up to the next corner. In a GTR the jumping on the loud pedal is not such an issue. Its like walking in the snow on snow webs as apposed to a pair of Alpine Stars. Sure its still hard, but not to anywhere near the same degree.

My point was not to discredit GTR drivers who are doing a good job. It was just to highlight that its is farkloads easier to do 5 good, quick consistant laps in a GTR then it is in an equally modified rwd car without the 4wd and ABS.

Put it this way 'easy' isn't a valid description of lap when I get behind the wheel.

It will upset you for me to disagree, but i do. There is a difference between driving the wheels of the thing and trying your little hard out, rowing it along blah, blah, blah. And the reality of that effort being rewarded. It is easier to get a good lap out of car with a bit more engineering up its sleeve then it is to out of a more raw car. It may be the difference between only getting two corners wrong rather then 4....but comparitively it is easy to get the optimum lap time out of it when your mistakes dont bite you so hard.

Not being able to get into a corner (no ABS) or out of a corner (only rwd) is a big part of a lap. There isnt much else to doing laps other then steering.

Its just like this years F1 cars without the traction control/ABS and other driver aids. The drivers are driving with no less effort or aggression. But last years cars will be easier to get a lap time out of as mistake is masked by smart engineering.

I am sensitive to this as i openly admit that my driving needs to improve...but i think the car that i drive doesnt exactly make my life easy...though these days with the new Teins its nicer. But i know a good driver would be able to get in my car and go several seconds quicker then me....I look at the data of a sprint day and i piece together my best bits of laps and there is typically seconds in it

[Scotsman]

A GTR is a meat heads car in comparison to a lot of other cars out there, the EVO and STI spring to mind as others that forgive way more then many drivers deserve. Still takes a lot of work to drive them quick, but your mistakes don't hurt you that much...

I know what your trying to say here, but surely you mean a GTR is harder to drive fast than say the EVO or STI.

I think the EVO and STI are more forgiving to drive than the GTR. They are lighter and seem to recover easier. They seem to be better braked because of their weight. (in standard form of course) The EVO can just be pointed and planted and this is all you need to know. Not the case with a GTR.

And since were throwing insults around, I think the GTST is actually the meat head car. lol

Because it takes more skill to know and understand what the GTR is doing. A RWD will just oversteer or understeer and that's all you have to deal with. But a good GTR driver will know that they can enter with slight understeer and push their car into oversteer by utilizing the 4WD. You need to know how the GTR can kick if you get it all wrong. GTR drivers will know that pulling the wheel and pointing more in wards into a corner wont be the final direction you exit the corner as forcing some four wheel slide will give you the best drive out of the corner. This is because you are on boost earlier and you have four wheels scrambling for traction, and this points the GTR in the direction you want to go better.

Or you can just point and steer a GTR and use 80% of it's potential.

[NickR33]

I would love to punt a GTR so I could understand what your on about scotsman... alright whos lending me their's first?

I find 4wds (have only driven WRX) are harder to drive at 100% because the limit of grip is higher and they seem to let go more aggressively without as much warning... a RWD with decent setup lets you know where the limit is but at the same time allows you to go over it slightly, sliding the car instead of just getting spat into the sand... in my limited seat time in a WRX I found the learning curve much steeper than my own car and 'experiments' that went wrong seemed to be harder to correct... I guess a GTR is the best of both worlds really?

[Roy]

I know what your trying to say here, but surely you mean a GTR is harder to drive fast than say the EVO or STI.

I think the EVO and STI are more forgiving to drive than the GTR. They are lighter and seem to recover easier. They seem to be better braked because of their weight. (in standard form of course) The EVO can just be pointed and planted and this is all you need to know. Not the case with a GTR.

I agree, i was shocked by Tony in the STI, the car was awesoemn and his judgement of corner speeds was damn good. But the manner in which he arrived at the corner, turned and stepped on it almost had me pissing my pants and calling 000

Check the OE weights of the cars..i think you will find that EVO 7 on up and STI (2001 odd on up) weight about 140-1480kgs so not exactly lighter. They do have better 4 channel ABS though compared to the 3 channel ABS on GTRs

And since were throwing insults around, I think the GTST is actually the meat head car. lol

Because it takes more skill to know and understand what the GTR is doing. A RWD will just oversteer or understeer and that's all you have to deal with. But a good GTR driver will know that they can enter with slight understeer and push their car into oversteer by utilizing the 4WD. You need to know how the GTR can kick if you get it all wrong. GTR drivers will know that pulling the wheel and pointing more in wards into a corner wont be the final direction you exit the corner as forcing some four wheel slide will give you the best drive out of the corner. This is because you are on boost earlier and you have four wheels scrambling for traction, and this points the GTR in the direction you want to go better.

Or you can just point and steer a GTR and use 80% of it's potential.

LOL....hey if im wrong then i am wrong. I have no problem admitting it. But i dont think i am. Re what you just posted? More skill to kmow and understand what the GTR is doing? If i jumped in your car and it handled like all the GTRs that have never been set up properly (think about all the NSW GTRs i had been in before coming to Vic) and you got the same result out of one of their cars??? I would agree. But what you just posted ...have you been watching too much Initial D!

It seems we both need to spend some seat time in others cars as i couldnt disagree more with you re it being somehow harder and more demanding to drive a GTR quick?~?~?~

[Roy]

I would love to punt a GTR so I could understand what your on about scotsman... alright whos lending me their's first?

I find 4wds (have only driven WRX) are harder to drive at 100% because the limit of grip is higher and they seem to let go more aggressively without as much warning... a RWD with decent setup lets you know where the limit is but at the same time allows you to go over it slightly, sliding the car instead of just getting spat into the sand... in my limited seat time in a WRX I found the learning curve much steeper than my own car and 'experiments' that went wrong seemed to be harder to correct... I guess a GTR is the best of both worlds really?

But what do you do in a WRX when it goes wrong? Keep your foot planted and steer where you want to go. I disagree as 90% of the time they understeer at the limit so you just keep steering and your foot planted. Its hwne you lift off dramatically that you change the attitude of the car that you may end up in trouble with lift off oversteer. I think the way they start to push in the front end whilst still remaining all gripped up means they communicate sooner what is happening in a corner.

I dont know...im going home. Maybe sthe grass is always greeener. But i dare say that if you took 10 ppl, 5 experienced rwd guys and 5 guys who have only ever punted rwd cars. The rwd car drivers would do a better job in he AWD cars then vice versa as the things that Chris talks off, well i thought they were all more critical in a rwd car without ABS/ATTESSA etc etc so the drivers have more appreciation for the dynamics of a car and driving.

A reason why i do lend credit ot what Chris is saying as i think to go quick in a GTR, its not that dissimilar to a rwd car where you do flow the car and balance it with throttle and steering. In the EVO/STIs i see and follow, well it doesnt really matter as long as you come out the other side

One thing for sure i think i leave you all for dead for talking shit over the internet...and getting smashed. And for crashing the car

[JAGR33]

Bris, I agree with what your saying and that's why I'd like to do a few laps in your car, you never know I might learn a lot!!!!

Driving my car around the track doesn't really scare me, I WANT TO GET SCARED!!!! So when are we hitting the track??

[Roy]

And you know what Jack. I think you would be someone who would go quicker then me. You are smooth and obviously quick as Snowie/Aaron cant match your times and mechanically their cars are as good if not better in some regards. Your still a long way ahead of Chris but there is the differences in suspension and brakes and perhaps a bit of power that hurt Chris on that front.

I think you would likely go quicker, but who cares. I think you would jump from my car and go WOW, that first lap was shit, the one after was good but i did this that lost me time. The the other lap this happened..fark but you know what, that second last lap i got damn close to being on the money and fark it was quick, but then the next lap the brakes were just that little bit hotter, ditto the tyres (pressures) and you know what the brakes just werent the same so squeezing the brakes a little harder to pull it up i accidentally pinched the brakes and messed up that corner badly and flat spotted a tyre. So any other session that day is for shit as every time you grab a brake it wants to lock up.

I think thats the best i can explain what i am trying to say. Its not that GTR drivers arent good and would suck behind the wheel of a rwd car. Shit its not rocket science. 3 pedals and a steering wheel. But i think you guys would be shocked how hard it is to string a lap together at the limit. Its not always pretty and you walk away going those little moments mistakes can be a full second or more. I dont think you walk away from your 1:18-1:19s saying there was still a second in missed apexes, late throttle applications, catching oversteer etc. I know from the data that a top driver can do a low 1:21 in my car with the old Bilsteins. The driver just has to string the corners together. I hope with the Teins it makes the car a little more consitant/easier to drive so that i can get close to what the car can do...presently i know i am slower then the car.

I have always been happy to let ppl drive my car. Only Juz and Chris have been the only ppl to ever want to

Anyway, this has turned into a BS discussion, fact is the car was quick because Newton was driving/hanging onto it. Im with those that would have been off backwards at one point or another

[Adz]

Wow im going to sit on the fence on this one as much as I can.

All I know is GTR's are fast but driving is driving. The leasons learnt in driving a rwd without assists pay dividends when you jump in to a GTR but not so much in a AWD as they are diffrent again. I dont think the skills learnt driving a GTR will help you to drive a rwd without assists as much as the other way round. A GTR is like driving a RWD but it just deos everything faster. An AWD is like driving a fast FWD.

I have followed both Snowey and Jack in Chris's car but Snoweys car has had some extra work done to it since. Snoweys car is faster than Chris's in power and handeling and Jacks car is faster than Snoweys. Not only that Jack is a clean driver.

Roy I double dare you to walk in to Race Pace and say GTR's are meat head cars.

[Roy]

I still liked Deep Imapct better then Armageddon. Not even Bruce Willis could carry that film!

Yeh, Ben could probably hand out a mean beating. But i reckon i have done worse things to myself on the piss. Plus what i was trying to say was that the inputs can be a little more heavy handed because they are simply that more stable. So was reference to driving inputs beign more on/off rather then a slight on owners

So Meat head = heavy handed. But hey, im all for a good beating. Its been a while and there is always the chance that as i turn away from the white light i could have an epiphany.

I hate beign sober on week nights. I am so much more restless and get bored, B grade filsm just arent as entertaining at night when you are off the piss

[Adz]

I still liked Deep Imapct better then Armageddon. Not even Bruce Willis could carry that film!

Yeh, Ben could probably hand out a mean beating. But i reckon i have done worse things to myself on the piss. Plus what i was trying to say was that the inputs can be a little more heavy handed because they are simply that more stable. So was reference to driving inputs beign more on/off rather then a slight on owners

So Meat head = heavy handed. But hey, im all for a good beating. Its been a while and there is always the chance that as i turn away from the white light i could have an epiphany.

I hate beign sober on week nights. I am so much more restless and get bored, B grade filsm just arent as entertaining at night when you are off the piss

Ha ha man you so funny. i get what you mean. Dont worry ill booz with you at dutton. Probably sensible we do it on the Sunday night this time.

[Roy]

You get what i am saying?...and English is my first and only langauge

But booz was my first love. Turns out it has been my only love

So Scotchfingers correct response woudl have been to call GTSt owner fairies for the way we slap at the steering wheel with out finger tips, squeeling in fear of spinning. When really, the only thing to fear is fear itself...that and chicks with clits bigger then your dick