After Market Ecu, For Hi-pow 30de

[SKiT_R31]

ok, i've finally sorted finances so its time to buy a few things for the old 30DE, but i really cant decide which is the best way to go, im really after daily usable power, so a flexible tune for slow daily driving, and WOT, ontop of this, its not 100% necesary, but i wouldnt mind having the ability for more than one tune as i wouldnt mind trying some high oxygen race fuel in it (like the shit thats 35% oxygen).

sorta things ive been thinking are just the usual power fc, microtech, or even somthing like the greddy emanage ultimate, although its a piggy back, i like the features like 2 tunes and being able to run off the 02 sesor to keep a certain a/f mix (so i could keep it reasonable on random oxygen fuels).

but i wont touch it if its going to be a paint in the arse to tune and it wont net me the same power as the others.

background on the car? 255deg cams with 8.3mm lift, qdj ex. cam gear, 10.5:1 CR pistons, shaved head/block (up around 12:1 CR now), vct connected (and i would like the chage when it kicks in etc for ideal performance), Fujitsimuto Extractors (JASMA) 6-2-1 mandrel, large primary's dumping into 3" collector. Full 3" exhaust, with SFA back pressure. 25DET injectors, bosc 023, malpassi fpr, etc.

car made 151rwkw with sfa done to it, stock 25de ecu, 10.5:1 CR, no cai, rb30e tiny extractors (wildcat :|) and a 2.25" pressbent exhaust. with those cams etc and twin tb's

it make heaps more than that now, its like comparing a 25det to an rb30e, you cant tell its the same engine.

other things im going to be buying at the same time is a front facing plenum, and a large 80-90mm tb, and a q45 afm. I've already got a 4" apexi pod, this will all be boxed where the battery normally sits with the underneath cut out for CAI. I have a dodgy keyway and damaged balencer, i was going to replace it and was wondering if i would get ANY benefit from somthing like a romac? (without getting the whole bottom end balenced with it) and any other bolt ons it'd be worth getting...

also just a note, the car will more than likely end up with a wet nitrous injection 60-100hp ontop of that.

cheers

[Eug]

the ecu is only going to be as good as the tuner. speak with some tuners and see what they specialize in/prefer.

my pick would be the power FC or the microtech

[342Four]

more and more people are going microtech or even autronic

autronic is actually a self learning ecu - just like the current ford ecu's (from what ive heard, pick, say 5 points, set the AFR's at those points, upload it onto the ecu, start the car, run the car up to limiter and ecu sets a perfectly straight AFR line)

http://www.tfelectronics.com.au/PageFiles/pluginECU.html

[SKiT_R31]

Ill give my tuner a call when i get home

what about front facing plenums? for comparisons sake, do you think its worth over double price for this;

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NISSAN-SKYLINE-R32-...1QQcmdZViewItem

VS This;

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Intake-manifold-Nis...1QQcmdZViewItem

I'll be using a Q45 TB

(im not saying im looking at buying either of them particular items, just trying to get some info on how the n/a would react with defferent FF plenums, if at all.)

Edited January 31, 2008 by SKiT_R31

[Eug]

bench flow tests have shown that some forward facing plenums have uneven distribution of air to each cylinder. while it's not such a big issue with forced induction due to pressurized air, i would hazard a guess that it might give more negative effects than positive.

it really depends on the quality and R&D behind the product. Don has invested a fair bit of time and effort into the twin throttle body setup, would the Q45 would flow less than the twins?

[342Four]

a cut and shut stock manifold has been found to have some flow issues at 5 and 6 cylinder, but those greddy look-alike ones are very good

to make it easier for the ecu, i would go back to the one afm and the cheaper forward facing plenum (you are using a q45 AFM aswell yeah??)

eug - the difference between the twins and the q45 throttles wouldnt be too great, as they are that big anyway, in a naturally aspirated configuration the one q45 would be ample

[SKiT_R31]

a cut and shut stock manifold has been found to have some flow issues at 5 and 6 cylinder, but those greddy look-alike ones are very good

to make it easier for the ecu, i would go back to the one afm and the cheaper forward facing plenum (you are using a q45 AFM aswell yeah??)

eug - the difference between the twins and the q45 throttles wouldnt be too great, as they are that big anyway, in a naturally aspirated configuration the one q45 would be ample

Cheers for the discussion, this is what i'm after.

for starters ive worked out that 2x54mm TB's has the same total area of one 76mm TB, plus butterfly losses.

My problem with it is y piecing it to go to 1 afm, then the long piping to get cold air, especially because it gets absolutely roasted by the extractors, all air would be hot as by the time it hits the head.

The idea with a front facing, is its on the cold side of the motor, short piping, straight out of the engine bay to the cold outside air.

Yeah i have a Q45 AFM.

obviously im after whats going to make the most power, and if i can get more power from the stock plenum and twin tb's then thats what ill have, i just dont think thats the best way. I really would have thought 6 short equal length bell mouthed runners feeding into on front facing collector would have been better (esp for top end). Just not sure about losses in intake scavenging?

The engine isnt anything like it was when don had it. Before i wasnt sure if it even benefited from twin TB's, now you can feel the difference between 98% and 100% throttle and i really think it would benefit from more flow, christ it sucks some air. But obviously an alternative would be twin 60mm TB's and boring + internal polishing the plenum, i'm just after the best result

[unarmed_skyline]

if you end up choosing a microtech, i've got one with plug in loom for r33 ecu, which has a base tune for an na+t rb25 prob be a good starting tune comapred to what michrotech will send you, its an lt12s, only used for 2 months, upgradable software ect.

They are really getting better and better as time progresses you really have to have someone who is familiar with the ecu thou, the microtechs now have the capibility of doubling with mapping points with the software upgrade which is being relased some-time this year so that should make it an even better option, plus running on a map sensor you wont have to worry about your AFM which will save some dosh, you could even spend the spare cash on setting up individual throttle bodies rather than front facing plenum, would have soo much better responce and the sounds it would roar.

Also then when you set up the nos you could set up individual sprayers so perfectly even distrubution. all and all for your type of set-up i would reckomend the microtech, as power fc were very much designed for turbo engines only and lack some features, plus finding a tuner who is familiar with NA car's and power fc's would be very hard where as there are a lot more tunners tuning na's with microtech's so might get someone with more NA knowledge.

Also more tech support with a microtech over power fc as aperixra went broke.

As for g-readdy i would stay away from the piggy back on your set-up as it will limit a lot of options which you may need to get that last HP out of the na engine without another re-build.

[Eug]

hold up, just to clarify you currently have the twin RB25 throttle body setup correct?

i can't recall exactly (nor could i search for it), but i think Don had an issue in regards to AFM. i think it was that the OD of the RB25 afm was too small for a Q45 throttle body and made the whole thing redundant while using an SAFC.

however you are right, if you are in fact opting for a full replacement ecu than the Q45 would be the go as you have a wider range of AFMs to play with.

eug - the difference between the twins and the q45 throttles wouldnt be too great, as they are that big anyway, in a naturally aspirated configuration the one q45 would be ample

i was too lazy to do the number crunching before, but i did and the difference is quite marginal

90mm OD Q45 T/B = 6361 sq. mm

54mm OD RB25 T/B = 4580 sq. mm (times 2)

and like you said it is equal to approx. 76mm OD T/B, which comes in around 4536 sq. mm

you would be stupid not to go ahead with it! possibly might notice a shift in power band into the higher RPM and slight decrease in response, the shorter pipe work and cubic capacity should balance that out nicely though. i could be bias and just love high revs

p.s. - the way to tune for VCT is to do a dyno run with it disabled, and do a run with it enabled. overlap the graphs, where they intersect one another is the ideal point.

[SKiT_R31]

if you end up choosing a microtech, i've got one with plug in loom for r33 ecu, which has a base tune for an na+t rb25 prob be a good starting tune comapred to what michrotech will send you, its an lt12s, only used for 2 months, upgradable software ect.

They are really getting better and better as time progresses you really have to have someone who is familiar with the ecu thou, the microtechs now have the capibility of doubling with mapping points with the software upgrade which is being relased some-time this year so that should make it an even better option, plus running on a map sensor you wont have to worry about your AFM which will save some dosh, you could even spend the spare cash on setting up individual throttle bodies rather than front facing plenum, would have soo much better responce and the sounds it would roar.

Also then when you set up the nos you could set up individual sprayers so perfectly even distrubution. all and all for your type of set-up i would reckomend the microtech, as power fc were very much designed for turbo engines only and lack some features, plus finding a tuner who is familiar with NA car's and power fc's would be very hard where as there are a lot more tunners tuning na's with microtech's so might get someone with more NA knowledge.

Also more tech support with a microtech over power fc as aperixra went broke.

As for g-readdy i would stay away from the piggy back on your set-up as it will limit a lot of options which you may need to get that last HP out of the na engine without another re-build.

How much are you after? A microtech is pretty ideal, my tuner has had alot to do with them in the past, the only issue i has is they can only hold 1 tune, is that correct?? I just really wouldn't mind having 2 tunes, one for high octane, high oxygen race fuel, and one for the best pump fuel. But for power figures, i agree this is probably the best way to go.

hold up, just to clarify you currently have the twin RB25 throttle body setup correct?

i can't recall exactly (nor could i search for it), but i think Don had an issue in regards to AFM. i think it was that the OD of the RB25 afm was too small for a Q45 throttle body and made the whole thing redundant while using an SAFC.

however you are right, if you are in fact opting for a full replacement ecu than the Q45 would be the go as you have a wider range of AFMs to play with.

i was too lazy to do the number crunching before, but i did and the difference is quite marginal

90mm OD Q45 T/B = 6361 sq. mm

54mm OD RB25 T/B = 4580 sq. mm (times 2)

and like you said it is equal to approx. 76mm OD T/B, which comes in around 4536 sq. mm

you would be stupid not to go ahead with it! possibly might notice a shift in power band into the higher RPM and slight decrease in response, the shorter pipe work and cubic capacity should balance that out nicely though. i could be bias and just love high revs

p.s. - the way to tune for VCT is to do a dyno run with it disabled, and do a run with it enabled. overlap the graphs, where they intersect one another is the ideal point.

top end is what its all about, im ok with letter it rev . Yeah cheers for that, im aware about the vct tuning i think you've mentioned it before? I think that will make a big difference though, as atm with the cams its completely out of whack.

Im not quite sure i understand what your saying about don, so... he was going to just run 1xQ45 TB instead of the 2x 54mm ones? and he had an SAFC, why didn't he just tune the SAFC for a Q45 Input and an RB25 output???

The stock RB25 afm has ~ 80mm external diameter, minus all the crap inside it, it would probably have a total internal area of around ~ 70mm. If you remember dons setup, he used to have twin separate pipes, with the safc and off sized injectors accounting for the extra un-metered air flow. This worked ok, but a/f mixtures were all over the show, constantly changing between runs etc, and were quite random and very hard to tune, so i Y pieced them into a 3" pipe (75mm) and even though the was a drop in total area, i actually noticed a nice performance gain, which surprised me alot, but best of all, the car ran the same all the time.

So you've changed your idea, you reckon FF is the way to go??

mmm ill look into some bench flow tests between the different plenums

[Eug]

bingo!

THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUTS SO FAR .

SORRY HAVEN,T BEEN HERE FOR A FEW DAYS TO RESPOND .

I figure the simplest way is to run a single AFM . The apexi is switchable between most nissan afm inputs including z32 and infinity 90 mm . i,m now making a Y piece and will just hook up a rb25 afm until i can get something bigger . This year when i ran at the salt lake speed trials the afm didnt max out , it went to a max of high 60 %s , was reving up to 7000 rpm . heres some figures of areas of t/b and afm .

2 x rb25 t/b ( 60mm dia ) 56 sq cm

1 x rb 25 afm ( 75 mm dia ) 44 sq cm

1 x z32 afm ( 80 mm dia ) 50 sq cm

1 x q 45 ( 90 mm dia ) 63 sq cm

his original idea was to run a single large AFM for two smaller T/Bs joined by a Y-piece, the restriction was the SAFC unable to handle to AFMs. not sure what he ended up doing? twin T/B -> twin AFM? or is it still the Y piece?

also i still am not convinced with FF plenums, so my idea has not changed. the only FF plenum i would personally get at this stage without seeing some bench flow results would be the RB26 plenum, i believe the ITBs build up a little pressure prior to the runners and would create a more even distribution of air. who knows, maybe they'll work perfectly. the greddy ones (not copies) are worth a quite few pennies though.

[SKiT_R31]

bingo!

his original idea was to run a single large AFM for two smaller T/Bs joined by a Y-piece, the restriction was the SAFC unable to handle to AFMs. not sure what he ended up doing? twin T/B -> twin AFM? or is it still the Y piece?

also i still am not convinced with FF plenums, so my idea has not changed. the only FF plenum i would personally get at this stage without seeing some bench flow results would be the RB26 plenum, i believe the ITBs build up a little pressure prior to the runners and would create a more even distribution of air. who knows, maybe they'll work perfectly. the greddy ones (not copies) are worth a quite few pennies though.

nah as i wrote in my last post, what he ended up doing, was use the RB25 afm on one of the throttlebody's, with nothing ont he other throttlebody, each feeding into seporate pod filters. He then put 370cc injectors in the car (37% larger than n/a) and tuned the safc the rest of the way to bring it back on par with stock fuel mixes.

I now have it Y pieced running through the RB25 AFM, the afm hits high 80% (untuned safc, stock 25det ecu) so it's definately pulling some air, its not maxing it, but if it had bigger piping to suck through, esp after its tuned, i reckon it would see fairly decent gains.

The problem with ITB's is the 4x$ figure it'l cost me to setup, but they would be horny i reckon.

HMMM either way it needs to breath more.... upping to 2x54mm to 2x 60mm's and y peicing that into the Q45 (or hitting MAP sensors with no y piece) is still an option...

ugh hard choices... i like the even dispersion of air through the stock plenum with 2x TB's, but i hate hot air, need more flow, shorter runners are a plus as is shorter intake piping, plus they look heaps better...

Does anyone have a front facing plenum on their N/A here????

[Eug]

sorry, must have glanced over that.

regardless an aftermarket replacement ecu will give more flexibility in AFM choices which was obviously the limiting factor.

supposedly the greddy RB25 plenums are made to go with a Q45 throttle body.

plazmaman ones seem of pretty high quality too

hypertune plenums 'supposedly' have even distribution of airflow (esp to cylinders 5 & 6)

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/to...l&hl=plenum

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Fl...p;hl=bench+flow

http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/showthread.p...ght=plenum+flow

happy readings