Drift/street Suspension

[Habler]

This may have been covered a few times but every topic i seem to find about it seems to miss a few answers or not be exactly what info im looking for so here goes:

Obviously for the occasional drifter there needs to be a comprimise between having something that works well on both the track and street. Most people have found there answer to this by buying bilstien/whiteline (SK setup).

I currently have the set-up in my r33 of shocks/springs/swaybars/caster bushes. It is one of the best street setups i have driven on and most people who have driven a car with the group buy set-up will agree (some wont).

The problem that i seem to have is the car is still having too much roll/ not sitting flat enough while sliding at the track. From the topics i have read most people suggest NOT controlling the roll with stiffer springs (jap coils which would be an obvious suggestion to making the car sit flatter through the corners) but with swaybars.

The swaybars are there but linking corners is incredibly hard - when i go one way the weight of the car is all thrown to that side so by linking it back the other i have that weight getting thrown back as well creating a dangerous amount of body roll causing either to loop or for myself to back the drift off to avoid a spin.

Watching back on a camera it is easy to see that the car is getting quite a large amount of body roll and it is holding me back from doing faster/longer drifts.

So what i want to ask (as dumb as it may seem to others) is what can be done without going down the track of harsh jap coils?

Bigger swaybars? (would this create an understeery effect)

Stiffer springs? (im unsure of what they would be atm - what ever came in the groupbuy)

Or is it a case of drifting is just too different and needs much harder springs/shock combo compared to street and circuit where these bilstein/whiteline work there best? Don't forget i have not being doing track work for very long so its all pretty new to me.

Hopefully the guys drifting on this set-up can point out some things i don't know or SK can give his input (even if you dont like drift )

Thanks

[Sydneykid]

Have you got adjustable swaybars? If so, have you tried adjusting them? If you have already reached the limit of adjustment then it's time for a further upgrade. Since you are running a sedan, they have a much higher centre of gravity at the rear than a coupe, so you need to keep that in mind when doing the set up. I would suggest a 27mm front bar and a 26 mm rear, with the extra adjustment. That should give you enough range to drive the car around the streets safely, but have enough scope for drift adjustment. Which is something you can't readily do with springs, unless you want to be removing and replacing springs every time you want to go drifting.

I should also mention a rear subframe alignment kit, if you don't already have one. If you haven't already removed the HICAS, then it needs to go as well.

You can always recoup your money and sell off your current swaybars to anyone with more of street focus.

Cheers

Gary

[Habler]

Thanks for the reply. Hicas is already removed but no rear subframe kit is in (i will look into that).

As for swaybars, i have only played with them slightly because of suggestions that pushing everything to hard will make the car become prone to understeer but i will defintly try a few different settings and see what happens. (they are adjustable)

So what i can gather from your previous posts is that you wouldnt control body roll with springs but in the case of drifting are stiffer springs NEEDED to become a better driver as aposed to circuit?

I understand upgrading stiffer springs will comprimise the street ride but is it just something that might need to be done to reduce the huge amount of weight getting thrown around by the sedan? I'm not talking going "wood plank stiff" but something inbyween what i have and say a japanese coilover?

[rad100]

sorry to jump in... how do cusco coilovers rate??

[Sydneykid]

Thanks for the reply. Hicas is already removed but no rear subframe kit is in (i will look into that).

As for swaybars, i have only played with them slightly because of suggestions that pushing everything to hard will make the car become prone to understeer but i will defintly try a few different settings and see what happens. (they are adjustable)

So what i can gather from your previous posts is that you wouldnt control body roll with springs but in the case of drifting are stiffer springs NEEDED to become a better driver as aposed to circuit?

I understand upgrading stiffer springs will comprimise the street ride but is it just something that might need to be done to reduce the huge amount of weight getting thrown around by the sedan? I'm not talking going "wood plank stiff" but something inbyween what i have and say a japanese coilover?

What you are describing and what I would expect (being a sedan) is excessive rear weight transfer. Stiffening up the rear anti roll is NOT going to induce understeer. Exactly the opposite (oversteer) is far more likely. If you increase the rear anti roll by say 2 holes, then you would be quite safe in increasing the front anti roll by 1 hole. If the car is balanced now, then maintain the relativity, go 2 holes on the front as well. There is no substitute for testing, talking about it is not going to achieve anything until you have experienced what the changes feel like. I can describe it for ever, you have to do it.

Let's forget street ride comfort for a minute and just concentrate on drift competition. One of the things we have been working on is convincing drifters that they need traction, traction to steer, traction to accelerate. If you choose to use springs of sufficient rate to control the roll, then you have no choice, you have to sacrifice traction. Sure you can add a bit more spring, how much depends on what the tyres you are running will tolerate. But don't get carried away (5kg/mm front and 4 kg/mm rear is plenty), and don't use the springs to control the roll.

Cheers

Gary

[Habler]

Thanks Gary, your right in saying sitting on here and talking isn't going to achieve as much as going out and testing but the only real way to properly test drifting is at a track day and in Victoria these are few and far between. I'm trying to use this thread to get some ideas from yourself and other drifters to utilize the next track day and try a few different things with my suspension and maybe technique of driving. Thanks for the help.

[White GTS-T]

Gunmetalgrey already has the rear swaybar on the hardest setting and the front on the 3rd softest setting (has 4 mounting points).

P.S. Gary, can you please reply to my PM's. I returned my swaybars to you in early December and i STILL havn't recieved my refund, please stop ignoring me!

[Kaido_RR]

ok heres my 5cents,

at the current time my r33 is setup for drift but i daily drive it

im running the following suspension gear

Tein - Type RS Coilover (F&R spring 10/10kg)

Nismo F & R Swaybars (diameter 27.2 (hollow) front, and diameter 23 (hollow) rear)

Nismo Front Upper Arm

Nismo Rear Lower Link

Nismo Rear Upper Link

Race Gear Castor Rods

Ikeya Formula Tie Rods

SubFrame Bushes (set in the postion for overall grip)

Tomie 3-point strut brace

Do-luck Floor Brace

Tyres i run 235/45/R17 Potenza RE001 up front and rear is 235/45/R17 Federal.

My alignment settings are;

Front:

Camber: -2.5 degrees

Castor: 8

Toe: -0.1mm

first of let me say i daily drive my r33 but also attend drift practiced, and grip events (mc days etc). I find my car comfortable on the street, my oldman drives my r33 also and doesn't have a problem with the ride

My car handles near perfect at drift. i have alot of control and only very rarely do i experience understeer, which is due to incorrect enter. I have extreme amount of front end and rear grip which helps when drifting in perth (large course so most of the drifting is done in 3rd gear).

Comment the suspension workshop made on my car when they test drove it at an mc day was that the front end is setup perfect with larges amounts of grip but due to the large rear spring rate the back end tends to want to drift. they suggest dropping the spring rate down to 7/8kg if i wanted to focus more on grip events and also to upgrade my tyres (at the time i had very worn potenza g3 40% of less tread left on them).

But they also said that the car can be driven with its current setup and grip just my stlye of driving would have to be adjusted (as i drive in a more drifty way )

So now to the important part,

i see you have the SK groupbuy suspension setup, but what tyres ( and tyre size) are you running when drifting? do you have stock lsd?

my opinion is to sell your current setup and move into something like an enter level J-spec coilover, with a spring rate around the 6-8kg. If price is an issue you can buy second hand j-spec coilovers which are still in good condition for around $1000 to $1500 mark depending where you look.

I would suggest looking at tein because they can be rebuild and changed here in Australia, for example if you get a superstreet with say 4/5kg spring rate and find its too soft for drift you can have them change to 6/8kg here in australia, at a pretty reasonable price.

Also your alignment setup will have an affect, so maybe post up your current spec.

one last point, your current setup may be ok for drift but you may be tring drift in a way which cause understeer *if you get what im saying*

Cheers Michael

Edited March 3, 2008 by [Michael]

[nisskid]

im currently in the same situation as you except i dont really mind the amount of roll, i find it plenty easy to link etc, but i would like a more responsive feeling, it does feel slightly too sloppy through transitions and can be a bit hard to control at times. im running SK's group buy in my R32 with the 24/22 sway bars set on soft front and hard rear. i dont really want to go up in sway bars anymore, i want to up the spring rate as i think 3kgish or what ever the king spring sports lows are is too soft for the track, and especially drift. right now i feel the balance is perfect for drift, probably a bit too oversteery for grip, but that can obviously changed with the sway bars, the roll is really the only issue. i will hopefully be going to a 5kg/4kg eibach spring which i hope will help out a lot.

[Sydneykid]

Gunmetalgrey already has the rear swaybar on the hardest setting and the front on the 3rd softest setting (has 4 mounting points).

P.S. Gary, can you please reply to my PM's. I returned my swaybars to you in early December and i STILL havn't recieved my refund, please stop ignoring me!

I will chase it up for you today and find out what is delaying the credit.

Cheers

Gary

[Sydneykid]

ok heres my 5cents,

at the current time my r33 is setup for drift but i daily drive it

im running the following suspension gear

Tein - Type RS Coilover (F&R spring 10/10kg)

Nismo F & R Swaybars (diameter 27.2 (hollow) front, and diameter 23 (hollow) rear)

Nismo Front Upper Arm

Nismo Rear Lower Link

Nismo Rear Upper Link

Race Gear Castor Rods

Ikeya Formula Tie Rods

SubFrame Bushes (set in the postion for overall grip)

Tomie 3-point strut brace

Do-luck Floor Brace

Tyres i run 235/45/R17 Potenza RE001 up front and rear is 235/45/R17 Federal.

My alignment settings are;

Front:

Camber: -2.5 degrees

Castor: 8

Toe: -0.1mm

first of let me say i daily drive my r33 but also attend drift practiced, and grip events (mc days etc). I find my car comfortable on the street, my oldman drives my r33 also and doesn't have a problem with the ride

My car handles near perfect at drift. i have alot of control and only very rarely do i experience understeer, which is due to incorrect enter. I have extreme amount of front end and rear grip which helps when drifting in perth (large course so most of the drifting is done in 3rd gear).

Comment the suspension workshop made on my car when they test drove it at an mc day was that the front end is setup perfect with larges amounts of grip but due to the large rear spring rate the back end tends to want to drift. they suggest dropping the spring rate down to 7/8kg if i wanted to focus more on grip events and also to upgrade my tyres (at the time i had very worn potenza g3 40% of less tread left on them).

But they also said that the car can be driven with its current setup and grip just my stlye of driving would have to be adjusted (as i drive in a more drifty way )

So now to the important part,

i see you have the SK groupbuy suspension setup, but what tyres ( and tyre size) are you running when drifting? do you have stock lsd?

my opinion is to sell your current setup and move into something like an enter level J-spec coilover, with a spring rate around the 6-8kg. If price is an issue you can buy second hand j-spec coilovers which are still in good condition for around $1000 to $1500 mark depending where you look.

I would suggest looking at tein because they can be rebuild and changed here in Australia, for example if you get a superstreet with say 4/5kg spring rate and find its too soft for drift you can have them change to 6/8kg here in australia, at a pretty reasonable price.

Also your alignment setup will have an affect, so maybe post up your current spec.

one last point, your current setup may be ok for drift but you may be tring drift in a way which cause understeer *if you get what im saying*

Cheers Michael

Hi Michael, this is typical perceived Japanese drift thinking, which is technically flawed in several areas and in fact not what the top level drifters use. Let's start with your caster and camber combination. When you have opposite lock applied (counter steer) the caster is reducing the contact patch of the loaded (outside) tyre. This means you have less grip, control and steering feel. The current thinking is to decrease the caster and increase the camber proportionately. This increases the tyre contact patch and gives you more control of the front end drift. In circuit racing we run as little camber as possible, and substitue it with more caster, this is because a lot of the overtaking is done under brakes and exccessive camber reduces the front end traction for braking. Obviously not the case in a drift event, so more camber (less caster) is an advantage.

You also appear to be running non adjustable stabiliser bars, which limit the amount of adjustments you can do to suite the conditions on the day. As any suspension engineer will tell you, the best and most efficient way to tailor the handling balance of a car is by changing the antiroll. That's why professional level race cars have driver adjustable antiroll.

I note that you mention "Nismo Rear Upper Link" but not the traction rod. If you are adjusting the rear camber with the upper link and not, at the same time, adjusting the traction rod you are introducing noticeable bump steer into the rear suspension geometry. Some drivers can tolerate the resulting nervousness, others can't. Regardless, and bump steer at all compromises the tyre contact patch and makes consistency hard to achieve.

Lastly, the set up for a high speed course (eg; Wanneroo or Eastern Creek) is not the same as the set for a low speed course (eg; Oran Park or Wakefield). If you are relying on springs to do everything, then going to different courses requires you to change the spring rates, not an easy/quick job. On the other hand if you have some quick/easy adjustments (eg Swaybars & alignment settings) then you have an exploitable advantage.

Next time I am in Perth you must introduce me to your dad, to live for more than a few minutes with an effective spring rate on the street that is higher than a V8Supercar he's far more tolerant than me.

Cheers

Gary

[Trust33]

r u using a 2way LSD. that will put u well onto the track for linking the corners.

things u need r:

lsd

coilovers

strutbraces

caster

front camber

extra tie rod lock (for more angle)

boost controller

fmic

[Habler]

yes i have a two way, extra lock spacers, front strut brace (dont see a point in a rear), caster bushes. I do have a fmic etc but that is besides the point, it has nothing to do with why i am finding my car hard to transition.

I understand a 2 way will help with transitions but the problem isnt getting the car sideways, its the weight transfer when sideways. As in transitioning is easy but because of the large amount of quickly shifted weight the transitioning is very violent. Hope that explains the problem a little more Trust33.

Anyway back to topic, what Nisskid has said kind of seems how i feel at the moment. That going over the top on stiff springs isnt the solution but that the whiteline ones are just that little too soft for drift. At the moment i run 17 by 235's (8's on front and 9's on rear).

Do you have any slightly stiffer springs (for example eibach) Gary? I would like to try a slightly stiffer spring and change my swaybars around without having to sell my bilstein shocks.. Or will this throw the valving etc out the window on my bilsteins?

[rad100]

hey r cusco coilovers good??

[Sydneykid]

hey r cusco coilovers good??

Not in my opinion.

Cheers

Gary

[Trust33]

well i do understand ur reasoning behind the weight transfer.

to an extent ur tyres play a big part in how long the transfer will last untill u regain controll. brand new tyres are great. but they tend to get you right on the limit and give u confidence when ur hanging right out sideways. be ready when they let go though. and try to run the same diameter tyre.

as i found out last fri at powercruise. i had brand new tyres on. my handbrake stuck on a few notches (forgot to tape up the button) and with the brand new tyres, gving me confidence in going faster, and lack of power to spin 3rd + the hand brake on, not helping things at all, i managed to find a plastic barrier.

i think that while u are still only a learner, as i am myself, try to stick to a smaller width tyre 235Front 225Rrear. and try to run the same diameter tyre that will give you enough grip.

what are your munji entry speeds going into high speed corners?

[Sydneykid]

yes i have a two way, extra lock spacers, front strut brace (dont see a point in a rear), caster bushes. I do have a fmic etc but that is besides the point, it has nothing to do with why i am finding my car hard to transition.

I understand a 2 way will help with transitions but the problem isnt getting the car sideways, its the weight transfer when sideways. As in transitioning is easy but because of the large amount of quickly shifted weight the transitioning is very violent. Hope that explains the problem a little more Trust33.

Anyway back to topic, what Nisskid has said kind of seems how i feel at the moment. That going over the top on stiff springs isnt the solution but that the whiteline ones are just that little too soft for drift. At the moment i run 17 by 235's (8's on front and 9's on rear).

Do you have any slightly stiffer springs (for example eibach) Gary? I would like to try a slightly stiffer spring and change my swaybars around without having to sell my bilstein shocks.. Or will this throw the valving etc out the window on my bilsteins?

The Group Buy Bilsteins have a large enough window in their valving to allow for a reasonable spring rate increase. You would need a coil over conversion kit, 2 front main springs, 2 rear main springs and 2 rear helper/tender springs. To offset the cost you should be able to sell your Whitelne springs fairly easily. The coil over kit fits over the circlips, so it's an easy DIY. PM me for details.

Cheers

Gary

[Kaido_RR]

Hi Michael, this is typical perceived Japanese drift thinking, which is technically flawed in several areas and in fact not what the top level drifters use. Let's start with your caster and camber combination. When you have opposite lock applied (counter steer) the caster is reducing the contact patch of the loaded (outside) tyre. This means you have less grip, control and steering feel. The current thinking is to decrease the caster and increase the camber proportionately. This increases the tyre contact patch and gives you more control of the front end drift. In circuit racing we run as little camber as possible, and substitue it with more caster, this is because a lot of the overtaking is done under brakes and exccessive camber reduces the front end traction for braking. Obviously not the case in a drift event, so more camber (less caster) is an advantage.

You also appear to be running non adjustable stabiliser bars, which limit the amount of adjustments you can do to suite the conditions on the day. As any suspension engineer will tell you, the best and most efficient way to tailor the handling balance of a car is by changing the antiroll. That's why professional level race cars have driver adjustable antiroll.

I note that you mention "Nismo Rear Upper Link" but not the traction rod. If you are adjusting the rear camber with the upper link and not, at the same time, adjusting the traction rod you are introducing noticeable bump steer into the rear suspension geometry. Some drivers can tolerate the resulting nervousness, others can't. Regardless, and bump steer at all compromises the tyre contact patch and makes consistency hard to achieve.

Lastly, the set up for a high speed course (eg; Wanneroo or Eastern Creek) is not the same as the set for a low speed course (eg; Oran Park or Wakefield). If you are relying on springs to do everything, then going to different courses requires you to change the spring rates, not an easy/quick job. On the other hand if you have some quick/easy adjustments (eg Swaybars & alignment settings) then you have an exploitable advantage.

Next time I am in Perth you must introduce me to your dad, to live for more than a few minutes with an effective spring rate on the street that is higher than a V8Supercar he's far more tolerant than me.

Cheers

Gary

thanks for your input gary its always good to get another person perspective on my setup.

I'm interested to see the difference the increase in camber and reduction in castor will make, so before the next drift practiced i will go get my alignment setup changed and see the difference

Also have not adjusted the rear camber, as the rear arms are solid and not adjustable, i'm still fine-tuning some suspension bits, so i can start playing around with the rear alignments.

and on your last comment and i didn't pick the spring rate to suit Wanneroo, it was a compromised as i found the tein type RS for sale with 10/10kg spring rate at a price too good to pass up. I was initial worry that the spring rate would be too hard and the ride would be really poor. but i was really surprised once they were on. the damper and rebound are both set to the softest setting (both have independent adjustment). If your in perth sometime i would like to take you for a ride as i do believe they are a comfortable ride

Cheers Michael

Edited March 4, 2008 by [Michael]

[Kaido_RR]

well i do understand ur reasoning behind the weight transfer.

to an extent ur tyres play a big part in how long the transfer will last untill u regain controll. brand new tyres are great. but they tend to get you right on the limit and give u confidence when ur hanging right out sideways. be ready when they let go though. and try to run the same diameter tyre.

as i found out last fri at powercruise. i had brand new tyres on. my handbrake stuck on a few notches (forgot to tape up the button) and with the brand new tyres, gving me confidence in going faster, and lack of power to spin 3rd + the hand brake on, not helping things at all, i managed to find a plastic barrier.

i think that while u are still only a learner, as i am myself, try to stick to a smaller width tyre 235Front 225Rrear. and try to run the same diameter tyre that will give you enough grip.

what are your munji entry speeds going into high speed corners?

smaller tyres are good initial but depending on the power, i found i ate up my set of 16 on the rear which were running 225 in only a few laps.

Although i am basing my opinions around my car which has around 300-350hp. So with that thinking if you are only running 250hp then 215 or 225 should be a better starting point.

I think grip plays a very important roll in drifting thats why i went for a good tyre up front. When i was running my worn G3 on the front, understeer was shocking, which i can say was also due to my poor drifting skills as i would try to get the car to do things which would cause understeer but also the fronts wouldn't hold the line

and a question for gray, what are your through about increase track, as one talking to more drifter said increase in track is a good thing

Edited March 4, 2008 by [Michael]

[Sydneykid]

and a question for gray, what are your through about increase track, as one talking to more drifter said increase in track is a good thing

Increasing the track is never a bad thing, but the benefits can be outweighed by the dissadvantages. To overcome the dissadvantages, the work you have to put in to get it right can be off puting. At the rear, by increasing the track you are increasing the leverage and movement ratios in roll from the centre of the tyre contact patch to the spring/shock unit. Ditto the effective rate of the rear stabiliser bar. Obviously you also increase the leveraged load on the suspension joints and any existing bump steer will have even more effect. On the front it is much the same as far as spring, shock and bar rates go, plus you have the effect on the SAI. You loose steering sensitivity, as any impact feedback through the steering wheel becomes quite strong, masking the supplties that you can feel now. You also get some braking effort feedback through the steering wheel and ripple strip impacts can be disturbing on you grip. The self centering action is of course much stronger, which can be a hidden advantage. The need to extensively modify the body work to fit the wideer track is another obvious time/cost.

In summary, widening the track would be on my list, but it wouldn't be anywhere near the top.

Cheers

Gary