Quick Question

[GoldZilla]

Grant, seriously, stop treating us like clowns just because you disagree with what we say or how we choose to do things here IN AUSTRALIA... It's getting tired.

Here's a few things to think about:

• most of us use our cars as daily-drivers in Aussie conditions - we regularly encounter a huge variety of road surfaces; traffic and weather conditions; freeways, suburban streets with speed hump, roundabouts; broken and/or unsealed roads, etc.
  
• most of us RARELY, if EVER take our cars to the track. When we do take them to the track, not everyone wants to drift their wagons - some like grip driving.
  
• most of us would like a COMPROMISE between comfort and handling, due to the factors stated above.
  
• most of us would prefer to SHARE our knowledge and experiences, and learn from others, rather than have it DICTATED as to what is "right" or "wrong: with no consideration as to how and where their car is used.
  
• most of us would like a simple, one-time solution to get what we need. We may not have the time, money parts available or opportunity to test all of the different set-ups and combinations available around us.
  

Fair enough, you do a fair bit of testing and have found things that you seem to prefer over what's been suggested here, but just because they suit you it doesn't mean that it will apply to everyone else. You seem to do a lot of chopping and changing of parts, which might well be the way to get to the set-up you prefer for the way you drive your car, but (correct me of I'm wrong here, please, SK) Sydneykid has done extensive testing over a period of time to make sure that the set-up he has worked out will suit for an extended period of time over various conditions.

[Sydneykid]

  yokotas13 said:

some people worry about every little detail

That's why the cars I engineer win events, I worry about every little detail. That's why there are over 160 guys out there with Group Buy kits in their Skylines and Stageas, because I cared about every little detail when I was engineering them.

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some people spend half that time just doing it and makign stuff work and get to the track faster

But when they get there they go slower.

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im that guy

Seems like it

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im using parts from 5 or 6 different cars on my car to make stuff work

This topic is about making bits from 1 car (R33GTST) fit into another car (Stagea), that's 2 cars not 5 or 6.

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I mean, it doesnt hurt that i have like a junkyard of parts at my house from my past track cars, but its not hard stuff that im doing.

Not everyone has that luxury.

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tophat has rubber cup base, if you insert it, and drive, the heat generated from the spring will seat it in its new position on the tophat

problem solved, i had the same problem

The OD of the metal top hat spring seat is 75 mm, the rubber sits around it. If you use a spring of lesser ID (60/62/64/70 mm) then it will contact the top hat as the rubber compresses.

Tip.....if you want a consistent spring rate for predictable handling and don't care about NVH, then you should remove the rubber spring seat. It has a spring rate all of its own that affects the main spring rate on initial compression and final rebound. Which are precisely the times you want maximum shock absorber control of the spring, having 2 quite different spring rates (the spring itself and the rubber seat) makes life unnecessarily difficult for the shock absorber.

Cheers

Gary

[yokotas13]

i agree

but dont say it wont bolt up

thats the whole start of this argument

People were sayign that the fronts were different mounts

they werent. then it went from there

[Stinky Rooster]

...and some people know and understand suspension and wheel theory and how it applies to the real world conditions. While some think that doing this is a good idea.

Funnily enough, the same person who argued with me about 6 months ago that increasing camber doesn't increase tyre wear, and then makes this statement recently

  yokotas13 said:

pu tit this way

my cedric wore through SIDEWALLS

not tires.

literally

a set every two or 3 months

Or, you could listen to the guy that helped bilstein develop a suspension set up specifically for the stagea, and also has a proven TRACK record in stagea's and skylines.....

*leaves*

[yokotas13]

  Sydneykid said:

Tip.....if you want a consistent spring rate for predictable handling and don't care about NVH, then you should remove the rubber spring seat. It has a spring rate all of its own that affects the main spring rate on initial compression and final rebound. Which are precisely the times you want maximum shock absorber control of the spring, having 2 quite different spring rates (the spring itself and the rubber seat) makes life unnecessarily difficult for the shock absorber.

Cheers

Gary

shit, i didnt even think of taht

good lookin, im gonna do that tomorrow

[yokotas13]

  Stinky Rooster said:

...and some people know and understand suspension and wheel theory and how it applies to the real world conditions. While some think that doing this is a good idea.

Funnily enough, the same person who argued with me about 6 months ago that increasing camber doesn't increase tyre wear, and then makes this statement recently

Or, you could listen to the guy that helped bilstein develop a suspension set up specifically for the stagea, and also has a proven TRACK record in stagea's and skylines.....

lol you do realize, that the entire suspension was basically reengineered to be exactly liek that?

increasing a moderate amount (think 2 or 3 *) wont really increase tire wear

the -15 to -20* that i have on my cedric, is a little different.

dunno why you capitalized track

this is like the 4th track car ive built, your point?

[Sydneykid]

  yokotas13 said:

lol you do realize, that the entire suspension was basically reengineered to be exactly liek that?

No....surely not. Why would anyone in their right mind "engineer" something that is so obviously wrong?

If they were truly "engineering" it, then it would be right.

It looks to me more like a dump it on its ass exercise and who cares about the consequences.

Properly re-engineered, you could dump it on its ass and have the correct geometry.

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increasing a moderate amount (think 2 or 3 *) wont really increase tire wear

75 mm is more than the standard bump travel (zero bump stop contact) on a Stagea.

75 mm places the rear lower control arms at an angle which results in 4 degrees of dynamic camber change with full suspension movement

75 mm results in a minimum of 2.75 degrees of rear static negative camber

75 mm causes 3 mm of bump steer on the rear at a modest 50 mm of compression

75 mm places the front lower control arms at an angle which results in zero increase in NEGATIVE camber on compression

75 mm results in a minimum of 1.25 degrees of front static negative camber

75 mm causes 1.5 mm of bump steer on the front at a modest 40 mm compression

And you don't think that screwing up the geometry like that going to increase tyre wear?

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the -15 to -20* that i have on my cedric, is a little different.

Not different, just worse.

Cheers

Gary

[RubyRS4]

Does he ever stop?

Edited April 15, 2008 by RubyRS4

[R338OY]

  Sydneykid said:

75 mm is more than the standard bump travel (zero bump stop contact) on a Stagea.

75 mm places the rear lower control arms at an angle which results in 4 degrees of dynamic camber change with full suspension movement

75 mm results in a minimum of 2.75 degrees of rear static negative camber

75 mm causes 3 mm of bump steer on the rear at a modest 50 mm of compression

75 mm places the front lower control arms at an angle which results in zero increase in NEGATIVE camber on compression

75 mm results in a minimum of 1.25 degrees of rear static negative camber

75 mm causes 1.5 mm of bump steer on the front at a modest 40 mm compression

And you don't think that screwing up the geometry like that going to increase tyre wear?

*grabs the nurofen and a beer*

[yokotas13]

  Sydneykid said:

No....surely not. Why would anyone in their right mind "engineer" something that is so obviously wrong?

If they were truly "engineering" it, then it would be right.

It looks to me more like a dump it on its ass exercise and who cares about the consequences.

Gary

becuase its a style

VIP is a style that is nothing but show.

Its who can fit the biggest wheels, with the best fitment

and i achieved it

regardless if you understand why, or not, its the style

you dont have to like it

im done though

i bow down sydneykid

well, let me rephrase

i dont care

ill keep doing my thing, you keep doing yours

[_Ryan_]

  yokotas13 said:

shit, i didnt even think of taht

good lookin, im gonna do that tomorrow

take a pic and PM me when u do it, so i know exactly what to take out

[yokotas13]

i will

ill prolly do it this weekend when i replace my subframe

[Sydneykid]

  yokotas13 said:

becuase its a style

VIP is a style that is nothing but show.

Its who can fit the biggest wheels, with the best fitment

and i achieved it

regardless if you understand why, or not, its the style

you dont have to like it

im done though

i bow down sydneykid

well, let me rephrase

i dont care

ill keep doing my thing, you keep doing yours

It's not a matter of liking it or not. The fact is there is no real engineering in it, I could achieve the same look in an hour with 4 bits of 4 x 2 instead of springs and shocks. It would probably handle about as well. Real engineering would be achieving the "style" and making the car driveable at the same time. Anything less than that is a cop out and the word "engineering" should never appear in the same sentence as VIP.

That's the real problem I have with the "style" it's a lie, a fake, a shame, phony, it's deceitful because it gives false belief to people who think you can have that "style" cheaply and a real car at the same time. Real credibilty would belong to someone who can engineer in the "style" together with true daily driveability. Citroen did it 50 years ago, copy their engineering solutions and you would revolutionise the VIP world.

Cheers

Gary

[RubyRS4]

Amen!

[yokotas13]

  Sydneykid said:

It's not a matter of liking it or not. The fact is there is no real engineering in it, I could achieve the same look in an hour with 4 bits of 4 x 2 instead of springs and shocks. It would probably handle about as well. Real engineering would be achieving the "style" and making the car driveable at the same time. Anything less than that is a cop out and the word "engineering" should never appear in the same sentence as VIP.

That's the real problem I have with the "style" it's a lie, a fake, a shame, phony, it's deceitful because it gives false belief to people who think you can have that "style" cheaply and a real car at the same time. Real credibilty would belong to someone who can engineer in the "style" together with true daily driveability. Citroen did it 50 years ago, copy their engineering solutions and you would revolutionise the VIP world.

Cheers

Gary

how about this then

You make that same fitment

a 10inch wide, -30 offset wheel, on the back of a Y33, with just a 20mm pull.

go for it

VIP is not a style for cheap people

its not a style for people that think that way. The good thing about it? It weeds out people that cant hang.

Id be keeping my cedric if the military wasnt bitching about me having 3 cars (i can only own two)

Mercedes did it like 5 years ago as well didnt they with the little open wheel car thing

All im saying, its not just a bolt on affair, you have to have a fully adjustable rear suspension setup, which is already costly for most people. Then you have to cut and modify those arms to achieve that effect.

Is it reasonable?

no

Is it safe at that camber?

Not really, if you dont keep up with your tires

Regardless it is a style, which is next to drifting in japan, and quickly becoming the largest up and comming "fad" in the US.

i kind of like the fact it takes alot of money and dedication to do hte more extreme stuff in VIP, it weeds out the poseres

regardless

Lets stop the bickering, i dont mind you, your a smart guy. Im 22, i am hard headed. Just the way it is

[RubyRS4]

  yokotas13 said:

VIP is not a style for cheap people

its not a style for people that think that way. The good thing about it? It weeds out people that cant hang.

Not wanting to waste money on destroying tyres with ridiculous geometry doesn't make us cheap!

I think you need to get a grip on reality ... and engineering in general.

We're trying to discuss what is street-able as an overall modified package. Not what requires you to clench your teeth and hold your fillings in, and open your wallet after every trip home.

[yokotas13]

the ride wasnt bad

it wasnt bone jarring

it was abotu as stiff as my stagea is now

and remember, I didnt bring up the cedric, someone else did......

i didnt mention it anywhere until he did.

but you guys arent attempting VIP, so stop thinking everythign i say is an attack....it wasnt even remotely applicable to any of you.

you guys really CANT do it becasue of the laws, not your fault.

[Sydneykid]

  yokotas13 said:

how about this then

You make that same fitment

a 10inch wide, -30 offset wheel, on the back of a Y33, with just a 20mm pull.

go for it

VIP is not a style for cheap people

its not a style for people that think that way. The good thing about it? It weeds out people that cant hang.

Id be keeping my cedric if the military wasnt bitching about me having 3 cars (i can only own two)

Mercedes did it like 5 years ago as well didnt they with the little open wheel car thing

All im saying, its not just a bolt on affair, you have to have a fully adjustable rear suspension setup, which is already costly for most people. Then you have to cut and modify those arms to achieve that effect.

Is it reasonable?

no

Is it safe at that camber?

Not really, if you dont keep up with your tires

Regardless it is a style, which is next to drifting in japan, and quickly becoming the largest up and comming "fad" in the US.

i kind of like the fact it takes alot of money and dedication to do hte more extreme stuff in VIP, it weeds out the poseres

regardless

Lets stop the bickering, i dont mind you, your a smart guy. Im 22, i am hard headed. Just the way it is

I am not bickering, well trying my best not to anyway. What I am trying to do is challenge your thinking. Let's try this;

  Quote

You make that same fitment, a 10inch wide, -30 offset wheel, on the back of a Y33, with just a 20mm pull.

I have no idea what the underneath of a Y33 looks like but based on other Nissans....How about a 10 inch wide, -35 offset wheel, with a 15 mm (outer guard) pull, a 5 mm (inner guard) push and 5 mm (top of wheel) camber correction. It uses pretty much the same components, just with a bit more engineering thought put into the suspension geometry. The "wheel flush with guard look" would be the same but it wouldn't have the stupid looking camber angles and it might actually drive.

Cheers

Gary

[yokotas13]

cant do it

in order NOT to hit the wheel on teh fender, i had to max out the camber arm with no lock nuts, spot welded to prevent moving

i can however fit a 19x10-7offset with minimal camber on teh same pull i have now.

i had to shorten the traction rod to pull the wheel forward from all the camber i added.

[Sydneykid]

  yokotas13 said:

cant do it

in order NOT to hit the wheel on teh fender, i had to max out the camber arm with no lock nuts, spot welded to prevent moving

i can however fit a 19x10-7offset with minimal camber on teh same pull i have now.

i had to shorten the traction rod to pull the wheel forward from all the camber i added.

I think you missed what I said, re read it and you will find that the top of the wheel ends up in the same place. So the wheel won't hit on the fender any more than it does now.

Cheers

Gary