Lower Springs Vs Suspension Kits ?

[Wacky Dee]

just got a stock r34 gtt and would like it lowered a bit ..for looks and handling. So what are my options? I see places like JJ sell 'suspension kits' with adjustable heights etc eg. http://justjap.com/store/product.php?produ...=336&page=1

But that's a bit pricey .. what are my other options? Can I just get my stock springs loweed an inch or less ? Any bad side effects to doing that ? cheers in advance

[Duncan]

You can indeed. I ran king springs over standard shocks for years on my gtst including lots of track work. It is OK as a cheap solution but if your shocks are tired and old (and most are by now) you really should be replacing them as well.

I would stay away from cheap coilovers I think you will find they handle worse than factory shock + lowered spring. Think 2-3k for a good shock and spring combo. Bilstein and the Oz Teins seem to be the best choices

[Roy]

Being an R34 GTT i would like to think the shocks would be in ok condition. My R32 was 9 years old with 90,000kms on it when i removed the std shocks and it turned out they were ok.

I think you would be happy with some lowered springs from Kings, Whiteline etc and a wheel alignment along with whatever bushes you need to get optimal alignment when lowered. If you have some cash left over then some adjustable swaybars are great value.

So for less then $1000 you should be able to get a nice handling car that is lower then std. I was happy with my car when that was all the mods i had

[Wacky Dee]

Being an R34 GTT i would like to think the shocks would be in ok condition. My R32 was 9 years old with 90,000kms on it when i removed the std shocks and it turned out they were ok.

I think you would be happy with some lowered springs from Kings, Whiteline etc and a wheel alignment along with whatever bushes you need to get optimal alignment when lowered. If you have some cash left over then some adjustable swaybars are great value.

So for less then $1000 you should be able to get a nice handling car that is lower then std. I was happy with my car when that was all the mods i had

how much do front bushes cost on average? what about some kings springs?

[Roy]

I did this all back in 2001 so who knwos what it costs today. The King springs were around $450 installed, and re the bushes check out what the adjustable camber bush costs in the Group Buy. I now runs arms by Noltec so cant remember what i paid for my last set of bushes a few years ago? $250 installed aligned maybe? Its a guess. Shop around and get prices fo ryourself that way idiots like me on a car forum are not leading you astray

[Wacky Dee]

cheers guys, think I'll just get lowered kings springs and replace the front bushes as they appear cracked (according to visual inspection by mechanic)

what's a decent drop that doesn't make the car sit too low ? 1" ? I don't want the ride quality to be too harsh or the tyres to scrub against the guards or worry about every pothole or entering driveways etc

[Sydneykid]

The guys have been telling you it's OK to use lowered springs with standard shocks, so I guess it's time you had the other side of the story. In short, lowered springs have to have higher spring rates than standard height springs so that they can soak up the impacts in less travel. The standard shocks barely control the standard springs and they have an effective life of around 60,000 k's. After that their performance deteriorates in small but progressive implements that you may not feel, until you replace them and you realise what you had lost. So that's your scenario, higher spring rates, less travel and worn shocks. This thread shows what happens;

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...c=103158&hl

The most effective way to lower it and achieve superior handling is by changing the shocks, not the springs. The Bilsteins in the Group Buy come with additional circlip grooves which enable you to lower it using the standard springs. Around 20 mm works very well. If that's enough lowering for you then that is a far superior solution.

The Group Buy thread has the details http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=88141

Cheers

Gary

[Roy]

The above may all be true, but there was nothing wrong with how my car with the std shocks drove and handled with the King springs, It was a lot better with the swaybars, and once again better when the Kings and std shocks were replaced with Bilsteins.

But for a street car, especially an R34 i dont think you need to use new shocks if you simply want to lower it and sharpen up the handling with slightly stiffer and lower springs.

LOl, you may be able to tell me technically thats not correct, but like you said ... seat of the pants on the street it will feel fine and what more do you need. Suggesting that you go directly to new shocks and springs is a bit extreme and expensive for someone who has a pretty std car, sounds like it is generally going to stay this way who wants a slightly lower ride for looks and a handlign improvement.

[Sydneykid]

The above may all be true, but there was nothing wrong with how my car with the std shocks drove and handled with the King springs, It was a lot better with the swaybars, and once again better when the Kings and std shocks were replaced with Bilsteins.

But for a street car, especially an R34 i dont think you need to use new shocks if you simply want to lower it and sharpen up the handling with slightly stiffer and lower springs.

LOl, you may be able to tell me technically thats not correct, but like you said ... seat of the pants on the street it will feel fine and what more do you need. Suggesting that you go directly to new shocks and springs is a bit extreme and expensive for someone who has a pretty std car, sounds like it is generally going to stay this way who wants a slightly lower ride for looks and a handlign improvement.

Ahoy Roy, I didn't say change the springs AND the shocks, I suggested simply changing the shocks and using the additional circlip grooves to achieve the lowering. You end up with a much better handling car than changing springs only. His height drop was within what the standard springs can handle (20 mm).

Cheers

Gary

[Roy]

Oh.

Well just because i cant read

[Wacky Dee]

Hiya Sydneykid

I have decided to instead get new shocks (as per your advice) instead, since the car is 10 years old after all. I do have a few (understatement?) questions though and I'd appreciate your input .. no rush, whenever you've got some time to answer them.

1) to change all the shocks for the bilsteins on my car would cost 2 x $560 correct ?

2) you recommended I simply use my stock springs and lower them 20mm using the circlip grooves ... how much 'better' would new whiteline springs be in terms of ride quality etc

3) with the new shocks and lowered 20mm - will the ride quality suffer a lot ie. will I feel every little bump and pothole ?? My main goal is to lower the car a bit (for looks) and to have a good ride quality.

4) do you have a link that explains all the other parts that are being sold in the group buy ie. stabilizer bars, caster, camber, toe, subframe alignment dust cover and bump stops - I'd like to know what each does and whether I'd need to upgrade these too

5) if I were to order the bilstein shocks (complete set for my car) how long will I wait ..? is there a long wait on the shocks or any of the other parts are are they all in stock right now?? I'm in Sydney by the way

6) can you give me an approx. estimate as to how much installation of the new shocks might cost

7) As mentioned before, ride quality and looks (lowered car) are my primary concerns .. I'm not too fussed about handling aka 'cornering ability' as I don't drive at 60kph into corners. I've seen mentioned in a few posts that people who got these bilstein shocks complained about VERY harsh ride quality (compared to stock car) and being able to feel bumps and stuff. this confuses me a bit as I thought new shocks were meant to IMPROVE exactly that ..ie. ride quality so that bumps and potholes are felt less as the new shiny shocks absorb their impacts. What am I missing here?

Ok I think that's it .. I'm sure I've missed something but oh well. Thanks in advance mate.

[Hibino]

New shocks + lowered springs + better swaybars would be perfect for what you're after.

Don't do a dodgy and just get lowered springs.

[Sydneykid]

Hiya Sydneykid

I have decided to instead get new shocks (as per your advice) instead, since the car is 10 years old after all. I do have a few (understatement?) questions though and I'd appreciate your input .. no rush, whenever you've got some time to answer them.

1) to change all the shocks for the bilsteins on my car would cost 2 x $560 correct ?

2) you recommended I simply use my stock springs and lower them 20mm using the circlip grooves ... how much 'better' would new whiteline springs be in terms of ride quality etc

3) with the new shocks and lowered 20mm - will the ride quality suffer a lot ie. will I feel every little bump and pothole ?? My main goal is to lower the car a bit (for looks) and to have a good ride quality.

4) do you have a link that explains all the other parts that are being sold in the group buy ie. stabilizer bars, caster, camber, toe, subframe alignment dust cover and bump stops - I'd like to know what each does and whether I'd need to upgrade these too

5) if I were to order the bilstein shocks (complete set for my car) how long will I wait ..? is there a long wait on the shocks or any of the other parts are are they all in stock right now?? I'm in Sydney by the way

6) can you give me an approx. estimate as to how much installation of the new shocks might cost

7) As mentioned before, ride quality and looks (lowered car) are my primary concerns .. I'm not too fussed about handling aka 'cornering ability' as I don't drive at 60kph into corners. I've seen mentioned in a few posts that people who got these bilstein shocks complained about VERY harsh ride quality (compared to stock car) and being able to feel bumps and stuff. this confuses me a bit as I thought new shocks were meant to IMPROVE exactly that ..ie. ride quality so that bumps and potholes are felt less as the new shiny shocks absorb their impacts. What am I missing here?

Ok I think that's it .. I'm sure I've missed something but oh well. Thanks in advance mate.

1. Not quite, bit cheaper than that. The front Bilsteins are $476, the rears $588, but since the total is over $1,000 you get an additional 5% discount. So it's $1011 all up which includes free delivery.

2. Nope, 20 mm is the limit though

3. No matter what you do, you will never ever have the same ride comfort 20 mm lower. It's simple physics, the car has 20 mm less travel to soak up the bumps. Small bumps = no difference, big bumps = a difference.

4. It's all in the Group Buy threads with comments back from over 180 guys that have kits, a few short explanations follow;

Skylines NEVER have enough caster, that's why they wander at speed, are reluctant to turn in and have poor steering feel. Hence the need for adjustable caster (radius rod) bushes.

The standard rear subframe bushes are very soft, silicone filled. They are soft when new and do wear over time until they finally leak. The rear subframe alignment kit supplements the standard bushes, stops the subframe from flopping around and at the same time gives some adjustment of the rear squat. This allows for improvement in the rear traction.

If you lower it and don‘t correct the excessive negative camber you will suffer from rapid tyre wear, as well as reduced traction for handling, braking and accelerating. For camber kits, please keep the following in mind when lowering yours. This is what is usually needed for each height increment, note that all measurements are centre of wheel to guard;

Standard (new) height is 380 mm front and 370 mm rear

360/350 mm needs only the standard rear camber adjusters

350/340 mm needs 1 front camber kit and 1 rear camber kit

340/330 mm needs I front camber kit and 2 rear camber kits

In your case (20 mm) you might not need any camber kits, but if you do it's probably only one rear kit. Every car is different, the only way to be sure is to check the wheel alignment once the shocks are in.

As any suspension engineer will tell you, stabiliser bars are the best bang for buck suspension upgrade you can make for improved handling. Road or track.

5. The base shocks are in stock right now and Bilstein takes 1-2 working days to machine the additional circlip grooves. Add overnight delivery and you have 3 days.

6. I don't own or work in a retail workshop, so I can't commit to what they would charge. It's usually an hourly rate, around $100 or so and it's a 2 hour job, so maybe $200 plus a real wheel alignment say another $100. There is a list of recommended suspension workshops on page 1 of every Group buy thread, make a few calls

7. Skylines are sports cars, not limos. Nissan didn't design their suspension system for a plush ride, so no matter what you change the basic design is biased towards handling rather than ultimate ride comfort. With over 180 kits supplied, I guess there are a few guys who maybe wanted a more soft ride, but going by the vast number comments posted the guys are very happy with the ride comfort and handling balance. Obviously you will benefit slightly more in the ride comfort stakes than most, as you will be retaining the original springs which are around 20% to 25% lower rate than the Whitelines most guys have.

"Shocks absorbers" is in fact a rather inaccurate name, the real term is "dampers" as their purpose is to dampen the movements of the chassis and control the springs. Springs are actually the "shock absorbers" they compress to take the impact. As far as ride comfort goes everybody is different, one man's feast is another man's poison. Some people like the soft floaty feeling that worn out shocks give, it actually makes me car sick, like being in a boat in a rolling swell. There are guys on here that will tell you that their car with 12 kg/mm front springs and 10 kg/mm rear springs rides very nicely. So what's an uncomfortable ride to some is perfectly OK to others. The best suggestion I can make is to check around for someone with a kit installed who will take you for a ride, an R33GTST or an R34GTT would be the best.

Cheers

Gary

[Wacky Dee]

Thanks Gary, much appreciated.

[Wacky Dee]

Gary, I'm very close to placing an order (just trying to get the money together) If you don't mind answering a couple of additional Qs I'd much appreciate it.

I've pretty much decided to just change the shocks and stick with the stock springs ie. will lower the car 20mm (or is it 24mm?) only ie. 360 front and 350 rear. From what I understand, I won't need any camber kits (well maybe for rear, but unlikely)

Anyway to the question ... my mechanic who did a quick visual inspection said that the 'crack marks were found to both front pan rod bushes'.

1) What does this mean and what do I need to fix this? The caster kit? Does the caster kit include these pan rod bushes ?

2) Oh and while I'm at it .. I've seen you mention in the group buy thread that one can lower the car 24mm using stock springs but above you recommended 20mm. I'd prefer 24mm if the stock springs can take that .. what are your thoughts?

3) regarding the subframe alignment kit .. in the group buy thread one of your customers mentioned he had it installed but notices some extra humming noise coming from this kit. He says it's quite noticable but not too obtrusive. What's that all about?

And thanks again for all your detailed and helpful responses thusfar.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Delta Force

[Sydneykid]

Gary, I'm very close to placing an order (just trying to get the money together) If you don't mind answering a couple of additional Qs I'd much appreciate it.

I've pretty much decided to just change the shocks and stick with the stock springs ie. will lower the car 20mm (or is it 24mm?) only ie. 360 front and 350 rear. From what I understand, I won't need any camber kits (well maybe for rear, but unlikely)

Anyway to the question ... my mechanic who did a quick visual inspection said that the 'crack marks were found to both front pan rod bushes'.

1) What does this mean and what do I need to fix this? The caster kit? Does the caster kit include these pan rod bushes ?

2) Oh and while I'm at it .. I've seen you mention in the group buy thread that one can lower the car 24mm using stock springs but above you recommended 20mm. I'd prefer 24mm if the stock springs can take that .. what are your thoughts?

3) regarding the subframe alignment kit .. in the group buy thread one of your customers mentioned he had it installed but notices some extra humming noise coming from this kit. He says it's quite noticable but not too obtrusive. What's that all about?

And thanks again for all your detailed and helpful responses thusfar.

1. I have no idea what a "pan rod bush" is. The front facing arms that control the forward and backward location of the wheels are usually called "caster rods", sometimes "front traction rods", occasionally "Z bars". The caster kit replaces the front bushes in the caster rods and makes them adjustable at the same time. Cars with live axles (non IRS Commondoors) have panhard rods in the rear, live axle 4wd's (Land Cruisers) have them in the front as well, that's the only "pan" I know of.

2. It varies from model to model and it depends on how much it is settled since it was new. You would have no problem with 24mm down from new standard height, but your car may well already be 10 mm down from new standard height, that is not unusual. The best suggestion I can make is to get the tape measure out and measure your car.

3. A couple of guys have mentioned a very slight increase in NVH, but ~178 guys haven't. My guess, the best I can do without examining their cars, is that the couple of cars may have something slightly out of balance in their drive train, perhaps tailshaft or a driveshaft. Maybe a mildly worn universal joint. The soft rubber in the subframe covered that up and it was only revealed when they tightened the subframe up a little with the alignment kit.

Cheers

Gary

[Wacky Dee]

Thanks mate, i'll be in touch soon to order the shocks, caster kit and subframe alignment kit. Cheers

[Wacky Dee]

hey matt I ordered and paid for my package approx. 4 weeks ago .. your initial estimates were 3-5 days to get the stuff to me. I don't have so much as a confirmation that my order and payment have been received.

What's going on mate? I'm starting to get worried.