Highest Power Outputs N/a

[SKiT_R31]

i agree with above. If there wasn't a market for n/a's, they wouldn't be sold... And again i agree with track times, I've seen a lot of low powered, slow 1/4 mile cars smash cars with twice the power.

i initially bought my engine (30de) from don when i was fairly new to twin cams and twin cam turbo's (living old school) i just wanted some newer technology, with fair amount of power (~ 14sec was what i was after) to put in my R31. And it was good, 151rwkw, great fun and 11L/100 economy, i was pretty happy with that. Since then I've gone through a f**k load of cars, turbo and n/a and none come close to the fun of my 31 with the 30de (though a couple other non-engine mods add the to enjoyment...)

I initially bought the engine to turbo it, but quickly changed my mind - i only changed bits of the engine for 2 reasons, 1. to make it mine (its unrecognizable from dons) 2. heater hose cracked, temp gauge failed, head warped, Ended up being over machined, causing compression/squash problems. Instead of decomping it or something like that, its getting oversize 25det pistons and a deck shave (to sit them flush) to have ~ 11.5ish compression + tune to get the squash right again and the car waaay happier than before, with tune (and the heaps of extra's that have found there way to it).

And out of all my mates with various high powered boosted cars, 95% would choose the 30de to take to the track for some fun over their own car .

That said, i do love turbo cars, my 30e+t wagon is heaps of fun, and a mates 30det skyline is a bit of fin too, so I'm not preaching n/a is the only way, i just love them both so much. And on top of that, if i was going to have a low powered daily, i would prefer it to be boosted than n/a...

[Eug]

i propose a zero tolerance to any further NA vs. turbo discussion, except for those particular questions which genuinely stimulate discussion.

put it simply many people come in here to stir us up or make themselves feel better. if everyone agrees, use the 'report button' and bring my attention to it - if i get enough complaints about it then i will have the post removed.

this is the NA section of the forum - we like to keep threads on topic of course. this crap has repeated itself time and time again and we do not have to keep explaining ourselves likewise.

[SHANE666]

good idea eug.

im for it.

[4 door love]

i love it how the guys preaching about turbo's come talk s@#t, get shut down and dont come back. i am on the p plate restrictions and yes if i could have bought a turbo car i probably would. the way i see it is make the most of what you got. i keep getting told to drop a DET in it when im allowed to but probably wont. NA's are growing on me

[GTS4WD]

Eug's duct tape sig!

[-R33GTS-]

Yeah personally I'm sick and tired of these 'self proclaimed' experts on NA Skylines with Turbo's giving their 2c in such an unessesary form

"All the Time."

"youwishhh" ( <- or whatever it was..), "the babes" don't think it's sexy when you do donuts out the back of the shopping centre douschhhhh

I see it all the time when these guys use their cars (skylines) as a penis extension for an obvious void they're trying fill in - and sadly you seem to be another case..

</rant>

Eug - I would say go for a major warning (as I'm not sure what the levels of how you discipline members) aswell as explaining what they've done and if it happens again then beat them with the ban stick

maybe even something stickied disclaimer or a premptive warning?

Edited June 11, 2008 by -R33GTS-

[GTS4WD]

"youwishhh" ( <- or whatever it was..), "the babes" don't think it's sexy when you do donuts out the back of the shopping centre douschhhhh

I see it all the time when these guys use their cars (skylines) as a penis extension for an obvious void they're trying fill in - and sadly you seem to be another case..

</rant>

no no no.. its ok.. cos they still have the number plates,

2WET4U..

thats the biggest thing within our scene that makes me ashamed.

[Grunta]

Hey Eug, for only 22, you have a good head on your shoulders, Thought you were around 30 for the maturity you show.

I feel sorry for turbo owners,

They will never experience the sound their engine could make from a set of extractors and a performance exhaust (not a cannon sitting on the back of the largest pipe you could fit under your car) a proper performance exhaust.

You drive what you drive for different reasons, and those reasons are your own, dont let anyone make you feel worse because you dont have a turbo forcing air down the throat of your engine just so u can floor your car at the lights and get to 60km/h in 4 seconds and burn a litre of fuel at the same time.

Regardless if its turbo or naturally aspirated (which when you say it like that it sounds smoother) you still have one of the finest engines to be made. Take pride in what you drive and you will be happier driving it.

Back to the origional post,

With enough $ anything is possible, decide what you want and then work towards that.

[screamin']

I bought my first N/A Skyline 8 years ago. Two reasons really, I was 17 and I wanted a Skyline in good condition. I could of brought a GTS-t for the same money, but I also like my cars to look good as well as go good.

A number of times over the years I've had the oportunity to buy a turbo, even an R, but I never have. The reason? I do a lot of k's, so reliability is important and NZ's open road speed limit is only 100km/h, plus, now you loose your car and licence @ 140km/h; and don't get me started on petrol prices!

My car sounds great, (of course I'm biased) think BMW M3 CSL induction and that great Skyline exhaust note. I can drive it all day just listening to it.

Now, this thread is about power output. The most I have managed from this little RB20DE is 120rwkw. These days I don't see any point in pursuing the power thing any further as there is no point as far as I can see. There are no rules (in NZ at least) about what you can do to a motor to increase power output. So if I wanted to make my car more powerful I'd just throw a turboed RB30 at it. Easy.

What's really taken my interest now is to do with my rallying. All classes have capacity limits and are structured like this: A 0-1300, B 1300-1600, C 1600-2000, D 2000-3500, E 4WD & Turbo.

So you can see, the aim of the game is to make the smallest capacity engine product the best power without turboing it. There is no point in throwing a turbo onto my rallycar because I could never beat a WRX on the gravel, unless the WRX driver is a complete pillock.

So, my new game is how much power can I make an N/A RB20DE produce. I have set rules to abide by and a starting point of 97rwkw to improve on. It's not going to be the cheapest way to make hp, but it is being done on a budget. So we'll wait and see what happens...

[scathing]

Regardless if its turbo or naturally aspirated (which when you say it like that it sounds smoother) you still have one of the finest engines to be made.

A cast iron non-turbo engine that can't even make close to 100hp/L with bolt ons, let alone stock, is "one of the finest ever made"? Aside from the engine note, what makes it "fine" exactly?

[Eug]

now now guys... we don't want to look like a bunch of whinge bags. the thread has gone way off topic already.

to put it simply if it's an obvious stir up i will have the post removed and they will be given a verbal warning to cease, if it continues then i will give them a proper one.

Eug's duct tape sig!

haha knew you'd like that one!

Eug - I would say go for a major warning (as I'm not sure what the levels of how you discipline members) aswell as explaining what they've done and if it happens again then beat them with the ban stick

maybe even something stickied disclaimer or a premptive warning?

a disclaimer isn't required. someone coming into this section to purposely stir trouble wouldn't even give it a second look.

Hey Eug, for only 22, you have a good head on your shoulders, Thought you were around 30 for the maturity you show.

Thanks mate I appreciate the comment. I believe it's important for us as import owners and NA owners to uphold an image. With the current P plate restrictions now in force more younger people are driving NA skylines with something to prove (i.e. burnouts, drags, etc.) I would not like for the NA guys (or any import owner for that matter) to be branded as immature young idiots who just got their first car.

With that said, back on topic fellas!

[SHANE666]

then getting back to topic....

im pulling 107rwkw in my 34 gt25 with just the catback exhaust and hiflow panel filter.

what do you guys rekn ill reach with walbro fuel pump, adj exh. cam gear, 370cc injectors, splitfires, extractors and new cat + e-manage blue tune.?

skit approximates ~130rwkw

Cheers

[Eug]

i would guesstimate around that too.

depends on the tuner's competency and the quality of fuel, with some cam shafts and timing i'd say you'd go even further. my opinion would be that you should do more headwork to utilize the most of the tune. not sure when NA injectors max out? i dare say the supporting fuel mods *may* not be required.

[GTS4WD]

why do all roads/threads/pathways lead to the same thing!?!

Rb25;

Cams

Fuel

timing

then;

headwork, ecu

then;

bottom end, 3L balance

inevitably all roads seem to end at VK..

Thts what i have noticed about every single "Na power" thread I have ever read..

[SHANE666]

oh yes! higher compression although i have no idea what it means....ill mention it to the mechanic and see what he says.

ive also read on the forums that i should get the turbo valve springs, theyre much stiffer. i guess theres not much of a point in changing the intake cam gear, as its already adjustable. #1 thing i learnt about N/A power gains was getting it to breath alot better.

130rwkw is my goal at the moment....because as of sept my cash is going straight into a partnership venture!

[Eug]

your...

first point = optimise current setup

second point = increase breathing, then optimise (tune)

third point = increase capacity, then optimise

unfortunately NA motors are restricted in their ability to gain power - there's not much 'variety' in terms of intake (i.e. turbo) choice which ultimately affects breathing ability. Don's twin intake mod is one idea to take on, need to think outside the square - which also is expensive.

people get too wrapped up in 'chasing a number' in regards to power. another way to look at it is to make your current power more usable.

imagine this, RB25 stock. lightened flywheel, lightened rims, single piece carbon fibre tailshaft, aftermarket diff (1-way, 1.5-way or 2-way) plus semi slicks. you have yourself very usable power!!

[SKiT_R31]

hah, yeah theres no reason why you couldnt see 130kw, esp with more compression (Twincam RB's love it)

I aggree with Eug though about theinjectors not being required (you didnt mention them to me), maybe just a fuel pump, if you were to combine that with a pressure regulator, you could increase the spray pressure then lean out the maps, which could work better for you power wise, wheras just larger injectors would probably net no gain.

Although i did notice my engine ran a lot better with 370cc injectors compared to 270cc injectors, i think this is because by using a SAFC to adjust the afm signal, i was using better fuel maps from the ecu (by seeing 37% less airflow the ecu would have been using more confortable inigiton/fuel maps for typical 110-120kw range) but then the emanage has ignition timing adjustment?

edit: too slow

edit: also dont under estimate cams, you can get good gains with even mild cams, much better than just adjustment. as for intake, i didnt mention this because i dont know anything about the neo's, dont they already have a twin setup joining into 1 single tb? How much spare flow is there that ther tb limits? And changing things like this lead to other problems, like with traction control(?). A short runner front facing style (esp internally bell mouthed etc) will be your best bet for top end power, but depends what you want to spend, whats available for the neo's and how difficult+sacrifices.

And at the end of the day, dont forget about drivability vs power vs economy, i.e. The more you shift the power up, the less its going to be happy down low, you bring compression and timing up its going to need good fuel, stuff like that.

Also i aggree with Eug, lightening things does make a hell of a difference (add lighter harmonic balencer to it aswell), combine it with some shorter diff gears and you can have some good fun with low power, ditto for lightening the car, removing accessories (or underdriving) and it can all make the car more drivable when it has less bottom end.

Edited June 12, 2008 by SKiT_R31

[SHANE666]

i cant afford cams...theyre like....tooo expensive!! tomei poncams are the only ones of seen for n/a's, which will also help me keep my VCT.

im not too familiar with the cam stages so i dont know...ill have to read up on it.

ive heard about the surecam regrinds and may take that into consideration if i have some spare cash in the future.

i need to stick to a good mechanic in sydney nsw to do all of this for me. any suggestions? i havnt really built a ongoing relationship with any.

[Eug]

the most important mod will be your mechanic. everything else can go out the window.

i suggest you less time thinking about what you want to do and spend it talking to the various workshops around your area. find someone who knows what their doing, knows what you want and how you want to achieve it. the best mechanic is one that gives you critical feedback.

example. i go into a workshop and tell them i want a tough street car, bolt this T88 i bought and tune it. sure enough they go and do a clean job and tune it. have they done a good job? yes! are they a good? no! because a T88 would be completely useless for my application.

find a good mechanic who's willing to sit down with you and work with you on a personal level.

p.s. - compression can only be changed by taking the head off, which i'm pretty sure you are not doing. google compression ratios to get a better understanding of how engines work. from the list of mods you've posted above, they are simple bolt on mods. everything you should be able to do yourself except tune. i would definitely include cam shafts into the budget if you can.

[342Four]

im not sure exactly where Croyden Racing Developments are, but they have done a lot of RB engines in the past

i would try find somewhere/some place that knows RB engines, so have a look around the site

check out some of the racing guys sigs and ask them where they would recommend taking the car, like Duncan, DirtGarage, Snowman etc etc