Bad Traction At How Much Power

[Lithium]

I have full traction in 1st (will "chirp" 2nd and 3rd depending on how fast i shift and condition of the road etc etc) with 270rwkw, running tein super drift coilovers with 7kg srpings in rear and 255/35/18 toyo t1r's, rather impressed with how much grip it has!

Yeah the "good setup" thing runs very true here, I have similar power on exactly the same dyno as Nizmo_freek, at least as good tires on higher profile 17s, but stock suspension. I cannot go more than half throttle in first gear, and even then that sits it right at the limit of traction - second gear is fine though unless I shift gear aggressive. A rapid shift into second will result in more show than go. In the wet, rolling onto the throttle in 1st, 2nd or 3rd can be iffy... suspension is right up the top of my "next mod" list.

[tridentt150v]

Power delivery can be the defining factor. My previous turbo set up made 240rwkw and it would break loose in 1st and 2nd too easily, and in the wet was a handful.

Now I make 290 and the difference is brilliant. The power is a bit higher, but the delivery is much more progressive, so I can control it that much better.

Not saying suspension doesn't have a part to play, it definitely does, it is the combination of the whole package that ultimately determines a vehicles driveability.

OOohh and a button clutch is murder on uphill starts on wet days - god I hate those traffic light types, just waiting for the 'tap on the shoulder' from the porkers as I spin away!!

[Simon-S14]

my car has great traction, and its a drift car, and its got coilovers, etc etc, and it has 280 rwkw.

the secret is... in the set up and tyres, I have set my camber arms up, played with the subframe angle and the traction arms, i run a reasonable quality 235/45/17 and i can take off in 1st, have a little wheel spin, change to 2nd at a moderate pace (read not slamming cause it WILL light up) floor 2nd, 3rd and 4th and it will not break traction... even while cornering on a sweeping bend i am able to wind out 3rd and pull 4th without the car getting unbalanced or unstuck. I'd like to see how many cars here do that

[some_cs_student]

I don't know if it's me getting crankier or the standard of questions and responses getting dumber.

Agreed, some of the responses here are not the best, I'm a n00b but let me try and post my opinion on the issue.

Agreed, suspension setup IS a big deal with more power.

But then so are your tyres, tyres are very important for traction.

Unless you have lots of $$$ why don't you upgrade the power slightly and see how it goes? You will do better with a well setup suspension system with correct spring rates AND correct alignment et cetera, if your going up 100RWKW then you will likely want to do the suspension at the same time.

Ignore the comment about coil-overs not been good, you just need the right coilovers, probably look at the SydneyKid group buys for suspension in the for sale, group buy section.

And then it depends on what your using your car for....drag, drift, circuit, street?

[raZ1911]

a better LSD helps also , my mate went from normal LSD to a 2 way and now he cant spin the wheels so easy as now he has to get both wheels spinning rather than 1

[khunjeng]

its the driver who looses traction! the car only does what its told

[limpus]

^^^ That definitely helps but once the car squats you're just gonna have negative camber again...but less of it...

[cln]

depends on the power delivery.. i had a rb25 in my 32 and at 210kw i span 1st through 3rd because of the power delivery of the setup

[FineLine]

Correctly set up coilovers can be as good as any setup. There is way too much generalistaion here. We went from the stock suspension wheel tyre setup to pretty much the full monty in progressive steps, First up was tyres, obviously a set of semi;s is going to bite harder than the standard 225 shitters so thats a no brainer. Swaybars were next, They didnt inprove traction in a straight line but they sure helped cornering in both stability and power delivery. Thats where it went pear shaped, we fitted a set of jap coilovers and all the neccessary adjustable bits like castor camber rods front and rear, new bushes etc. and it was terrible. Just a kidney busting bone jarring ride to hell with the car side stepping every time you tried to power on through a corner. Lighter springs improved it slightly but still useless so a lighter set again and the handling and power down grip did improve a little but we couldnt get the car off the ground. It just sagged down and stayed there no matter what we did. In desperation we ordered the bilstein setup and fited them. VOILA! the car now sits at a very good ride height, It squats beautifully in both straight line and cornering when you power on. Body roll is contained by the swaybars.

The next issue is the overall balance of the car. under hard cornering the rear squats and bits so damn hard it tries to lift the front off the deck and goes in to understeer. I am hoping that corner weighting and sway bar adjustment can take care of this to some degree. Power is in the 450/500 hp range so its not short of fat either.

On the other side of the fence my bud has a set of coiulovers in the same car as mine (33gtst) and he has it handling nicely too. his car squats and bites well both straight and cornering. his ride is just a bit harsher/stiffer than mine.

Good traction can be achieved with coilovers or quality shocks and springs. Its all about the setup and the settings.

[Sydneykid]

I hate this "coil over" verbalisation, FHS R32/33/34's ALL come with coil overs standard. The coil (spring) goes over the shock, that's the standard configuration.

The lack of traction issue is with ridiculously high spring rates plus shocks that have unsophisticated valving with excessive damping in a forlorn attempt to control the excessive spring rates. Add that to a total lack of alignment correction after excessive lowering and you have a perfect recipe for traction problems.

It doesn’t matter how good the 245 tyres are if you are only using 100 mm of them because of excessive camber.

Cheers

Gary

[FineLine]

I hate this "coil over" verbalisation, FHS R32/33/34's ALL come with coil overs standard. The coil (spring) goes over the shock, that's the standard configuration.

The lack of traction issue is with ridiculously high spring rates plus shocks that have unsophisticated valving with excessive damping in a forlorn attempt to control the excessive spring rates. Add that to a total lack of alignment correction after excessive lowering and you have a perfect recipe for traction problems.

It doesn’t matter how good the 245 tyres are if you are only using 100 mm of them because of excessive camber.

Cheers

Gary

I think most people have a handle on that Gary, its more a method of differentiating between A product purchased as a whole as opposed to one being sourced from several manufacturers to make the whole.

[Sydneykid]

I think most people have a handle on that Gary, its more a method of differentiating between A product purchased as a whole as opposed to one being sourced from several manufacturers to make the whole.

It's the bundling that I have the problem with, the standard springs & shock configuration is "coil over", the road Group Buy Bilstein shocks & Whiteline springs are "coil over", worn out second hand Jap wrecker stuff are "coil over", the track Group Buy Bilstein shocks & Eiback springs are "coil over", the 2 way adjustable MSA shocks & Eibach springs I have in my race R32GTST is "coil over", the 5 way adjustable Sach shocks and H&R springs in the F3 car are "coil over", the Penske 3 way adjustable shocks and Eibach springs in the V8SuperCar are "coil over" etc etc. They are all "coil overs" except they cost between $400 and $20,000. The issue is some guy buying $400 used Jap wreck coil overs expects to get the same result as any other "coil over".

So telling someone to buy or not to buy "coil overs" is both ludicrous and dangerous all at the same time.

Cheers

Gary

[FineLine]

It's the bundling that I have the problem with, the standard springs & shock configuration is "coil over", the road Group Buy Bilstein shocks & Whiteline springs are "coil over", worn out second hand Jap wrecker stuff are "coil over", the track Group Buy Bilstein shocks & Eiback springs are "coil over", the 2 way adjustable MSA shocks & Eibach springs I have in my race R32GTST is "coil over", the 5 way adjustable Sach shocks and H&R springs in the F3 car are "coil over", the Penske 3 way adjustable shocks and Eibach springs in the V8SuperCar are "coil over" etc etc. They are all "coil overs" except they cost between $400 and $20,000. The issue is some guy buying $400 used Jap wreck coil overs expects to get the same result as any other "coil over".

So telling someone to buy or not to buy "coil overs" is both ludicrous and dangerous all at the same time.

Cheers

Gary

OK. so we'll tell them not to buy anything at all. "Coilovers" is a generic term for new shocks/springs, nothing more. Its only in your ocd engineering brain that it becomes a prob. Most of us are happy to use the term "coilover" to start the conversation and then go on to be more brand/type specific as the conversation unfolds.

Get back to f**king bed.

[The Dan]

SK: You are on the right track there buddy but I think the following extract from Wiki should clear some things up for you.

A coilover is an automobile suspension device, short for "coil (spring) over strut". It consists of a shock absorber (British: damper) with a coil spring encircling it. The shock absorber and spring are preassembled as a unit prior to installation, and are replaced as a unit when the shock absorber has leaked. This provides for optimal damping without torsional loads. Some coilovers are adjustable for ride height and hardness as well using a simple threaded spring perch similar to a nut.

The coilover is a basic component of the MacPherson strut suspension system, which is distinguished from other arrangements by employing a particular design of anti-roll bar as a longitudinal constraint. This was the first widespread use of the coilover in automobile suspensions. But there are other designs; the word coilover should not be considered a synonym for the MacPherson strut arrangement.

Coilovers should not be confused with struts or independently mounted shock absorbers

[shanef]

The sky is blue

[GTR-Ben]

My RB30 S13 seems to have average traction even at it's current tune of only around 250hp.. the torque and power delivery is what effects this I think.

Moving in 3rd the other day it started to spin, and this was not a fast change from 2nd-3rd.

I have semi hard adjustable suspension, 0 camber. Tires are not too flash

Just a bit concerned what it will be like once it's at double the power..

[some_cs_student]

OK. so we'll tell them not to buy anything at all. "Coilovers" is a generic term for new shocks/springs, nothing more. Its only in your ocd engineering brain that it becomes a prob. Most of us are happy to use the term "coilover" to start the conversation and then go on to be more brand/type specific as the conversation unfolds.

Get back to f**king bed.

I disagree, any attempt to add engineering/scientific knowledge to a clueless discussion is a good thing.

If you were looking at a topic you had in-depth knowledge on, are you saying you would ignore the technical errors in it?

I know I wouldn't.