Time Attack

[spannerx]

Can anyone with on track experience tell me how much difference should there be between a Gtr and rear wheel drive skyline having same HP , suspension setup,tyre compounds ect ect !!!! and driver style and experience, say on a time attack senario is it approx 2 secounds ????

[evil_weevil]

How long is a peice of strong?

You'll need the same driver, do a hot lap in one, then hot lap in other - even then it still wouldnt be accuarate!

[spannerx]

How long is a peice of strong?

You'll need the same driver, do a hot lap in one, then hot lap in other - even then it still wouldnt be accuarate!

Chris there must be a method of measurement EG when a nissan factory test pilot tests new cars under controlled conditions !

[wrxkilla]

Can anyone with on track experience tell me how much difference should there be between a Gtr and rear wheel drive skyline having same HP , suspension setup,tyre compounds ect ect !!!! and driver style and experience, say on a time attack senario is it approx 2 secounds ????

pull the fuse on the gtr and find out...

[Duncan]

interesting question. especially since the gtr has 4wd but about 300kg more.

I guess it depends how many tight corners there are, and how much power the cars have. 4wd is of very little use at lower power levels on a fast open track like say Eastern Creek. On the other hand it is super helpful once you have good power or lots of tight corners

[Sydneykid]

pull the fuse on the gtr and find out...

That wouldn't give a good comparison because you are still carrying the extra weight.

Cheers

Gary

[260DET]

Should be an easy question to answer, just look up sprint results at any circuit of interest.

At QR on the Sprint circuit I'd suggest that the average difference would be ~4 seconds, maybe more because the GTR's are often more highly developed.

[evil_weevil]

I still dont really find that a good comparison!

Ive been quicker than some GTR's! (somehow!! haha)

[spannerx]

Should be an easy question to answer, just look up sprint results at any circuit of interest.

At QR on the Sprint circuit I'd suggest that the average difference would be ~4 seconds, maybe more because the GTR's are often more highly developed.

Mate i think your on the money as my gtst at QR sprint track runs 56.32 The gaint gtr at time attack runs 53.8 mind you i only ran one lap and blew an engine.

[Duncan]

hmm thats still not a direct comparison. unless of course you have >400rwkw and have carbon doors and lexen windows. and the same tyres...etc etc sure a gtr can go 4 seconds quicker than a gtst....and a gtst can go 4 seconds quicker than a gtr too

[spannerx]

hmm thats still not a direct comparison. unless of course you have >400rwkw and have carbon doors and lexen windows. and the same tyres...etc etc sure a gtr can go 4 seconds quicker than a gtst....and a gtst can go 4 seconds quicker than a gtr too

my car has no carbon just stripped out with roll cage and approx 520 hp at the rear end weight with no driver 1380 kg and no i have not seen a gtst circuit car yet that was faster than a gtr,

[hrd-hr30]

my car has no carbon just stripped out with roll cage and approx 520 hp at the rear end weight with no driver 1380 kg and no i have not seen a gtst circuit car yet that was faster than a gtr,

56.32 is damn fast! what tyres?

do you do the SAS?

[djr81]

Personally I don't believe the difference is as marked as some people think. A GT-R needs alot of work to start returning good, competitive lap times these days.

Anyway for mildly modded example I would put the difference at about one to one and a half seconds over a 60 second lap.

Which is half a lifetime in motorsport terms.

[Sydneykid]

At first glance this thread appears worthless, but then when you start thinking about it..............

I made the choice 5 years ago to go with an R32GTST having had an R32GTR for a short time a few years earlier. The main reason for not going with another GTR was complexity (4wd system) and weight (180 kgs). Plus cost was another factor, an equivalent condition GTR was $15K more than the R32GTST. So for the same total cost (using that $15K) I reckon I made the GTST much faster than the GTR would have been. If you do a lap times versus cost factor then a $20K GTST will definitely be much faster than a $20K GTR and by my calculations a $30K GTST will be slightly faster than a $30K GTR. I reckon it's not until you start spending close to $40K that a GTR comes into its own. Once you spend over $50K there is very little chance of a GTST keeping up at that power level as the traction advantage of the 4wd gets to much for the lighter weight to compensate for.

But (there is always a but) that's on R type tyres, what if we used full slicks? There is no reason that a properly sorted 650 bhp 1100 kgs GTST on 10" slicks couldn't run the same lap times as a V8 SuperCar. There aren't many GTR's that do faster lap times than a V8SuperCar. The GTR may arguably have an advantage in tyre use over aq longer race distance, but a single lap screamer I don't think so.

Interesting isn't it?

Cheers

Gary

[Boss-zilla]

The above is basicly why i chose to 'build' a r32gtst track car instead of a gtr. I could purchase and do most of the mods on the gtst for the price of a gtr and there is the less weight issue too.

Ross

[djr81]

I suppose it should be said that in the 20 years since the GT-R has been around there have been a great many advances in tyre technology. The limitation of group A in this regard drove the design of the car.

As long as your modded GTS-T can develop good horsepower & get some semblance of traction you will be in good shape. Certainly your bank account will be better off than if you had gone for a GTR aka a traktor.

Edited May 21, 2008 by djr81

[Stupid Toyota]

But (there is always a but) that's on R type tyres, what if we used full slicks? There is no reason that a properly sorted 650 bhp 1100 kgs GTST on 10" slicks couldn't run the same lap times as a V8 SuperCar. There aren't many GTR's that do faster lap times than a V8SuperCar. The GTR may arguably have an advantage in tyre use over aq longer race distance, but a single lap screamer I don't think so.

Interesting isn't it?

Cheers

Gary

Now you've made that claim Gary you're going to have to back it up please

Saying there aren't many GTR's means there must be some. Can you tell me which ones are?

Also Im assuming you're saying the 1100kg GTST is being driven by a V8SC driver too.

As an example, my car was 1245kg sans driver, with 265 medium compound slicks and with a days driving on them I managed to get a best of 1min16.3sec around QR National circuit Vs the front runner V8's who do 1min10.xxsec. I believe with a little more practice in my car with no other changes, on the fresh slicks I might have improved it a little more. Hardly close to the "same lap times" though and I doubt the weight difference would help me shed 5-6sec a lap... (Though it would only take about 3 to get onto the back of the pack I think) Im not sure, but last I looked Giant hadn't run under a minute 16.3 yet

Needless to say, on other tighter tracks the differences would be less between an amatuer GTR and a professional V8SC

[Roy]

What is so special about a V8 Supercar? They are not exactly light. By todays standards they dont have huge horsepower. The compound tyres they run are not great as their tyre is a control tyre. They are a strong package in all areas hence why they are fast.

Carrera Cup cars are a similar example. Still every bit of a race car, but control tyres, average weight and power and good dynamics.

The difference is typically drivers. I know i dont get the best out of my car.

Problem is ppl dont give the above cars the credit they deserve for their pace. Only have to look at Sports Sedans to realise that even with more displacement and less weight they are not exactly leagues ahead (often not as quick). So i dont think you can say its as simple as tyres, power and weight. Sure it all helps. But to bridge the difference to the sorts of times V8s/Carrera Cup do then you really need to look at the engineering of the whole package and the dynamics of the car. Not easy to do when you are using a mass produced production car as a basis.

[hrd-hr30]

the GTR vs GTST thing may be true for sprints, but for hillclimbs my money would be on the GTR. Over a short standing start course, the AWD start line advantage is hard to reel in. Particularly because the tracks are generally tight and you're on cold tyres. Its all in favour of the awd cars.

At Mt Cotton for example, my old R32 GTR with only pods, exhaust, Mines ECU, Bee*R bovs, and 0.9bar on standard ceramic turbos ran 46.24 on puny little 225/50*16 RE55S on standard rims. I can't quite match that in my fully stripped, caged, 230rwkw 900kg Datsun race car which also runs 225/50 tyres. And I drove the GTR to the event and back with the air on and CDs playing...

Admittedly a GTST has more sophisticated suspension than my Datto and should be able to put a bit more power down because of it, but can it be done for the cost of my GTR, $20K? Well my Datto is for sale for less than $20K, but you certainly couldn't build it for that. I've got alot of experience in rwd cars at Mt Cotton and can tell you it would need to be a pretty well sorted and well driven car to do it. You need good useable power, gearing that suits, and good handling to run anything like that time in a rwd car. I can only think of 2 rwd cars on semis that have ever done better than my all-but-standard GTR and they're both highly developed IPRA cars.

For comparison:

2007 Australian Hillclimb Championship Results (incl records)

[Duncan]

damn straight, anything with a standing start is all advantage to the gtr. including the little race we had against the sports sedans the other day. even from 3rd row on the grid i got to turn1 first.