Time Attack

[Noddy]

Every time I go to a street sprint, hillclimb or super sprint my goal is to get as close to the times of the faster GTR's as I can and pissoff as many WRX owners as possible. I like my GTST. But lets face it, most any GTR's with the same amount of modification is most likely to wipe the floor. That said the spacer between the seat and stering wheel is always going to be the biggest factor though.

Ps. 1.00.04 on the clubman latout at QR.

300 rwhp on fresh 235/45/17 RE55s

Edited May 21, 2008 by Noddy

[Sydneykid]

Now you've made that claim Gary you're going to have to back it up please

Saying there aren't many GTR's means there must be some. Can you tell me which ones are?

The boost limit removed, weight limit ignored Gibson #2 car with Seton driving at Oran Park.

The M Speed GTR based on its 5 second advantage over Mark on R tyres, as it must be faster on slicks

Also Im assuming you're saying the 1100kg GTST is being driven by a V8SC driver too.

That or an F3 driver, our one of those is lighter.

As an example, my car was 1245kg sans driver, with 265 medium compound slicks and with a days driving on them I managed to get a best of 1min16.3sec around QR National circuit Vs the front runner V8's who do 1min10.xxsec. I believe with a little more practice in my car with no other changes, on the fresh slicks I might have improved it a little more. Hardly close to the "same lap times" though and I doubt the weight difference would help me shed 5-6sec a lap... (Though it would only take about 3 to get onto the back of the pack I think) Im not sure, but last I looked Giant hadn't run under a minute 16.3 yet

Needless to say, on other tighter tracks the differences would be less between an amatuer GTR and a professional V8SC

At the last V8SuperCar practise day I attended, there were 4 guys with Mechanical Engineering Degrees, 2 guys with Electronics Engineering degrees, 1 guy with both, 8 qualified mechanics, 1 Doctor of Electronics, 2 apprentices, 2 guys with Degrees in Management and 3 drivers. That's over 250 hours of development on ONE CAR in ONE DAY, I don't know about you but it would take me over 3 years to get anywhere near close to that.

I think you really be surprised at how much time can be gained with a plan of attack and the time to execute it. A simple example, I spent the usual 1 full day with the Production Car team at Oran Park at the start of the season, something we do every year. The idea is to make the car faster this year than it was last year. In a production car there is very limited scope for development, but we still managed to find 0.8 second with a progression of set up changes. Do you have a data logger in the car? If not then you are doing development in the dark, by feel rather than cold hard data. That's both car and driver develoment. I'm not preaching from a very high place here, if I divide Oran Park up into 6 sectors and add my fastest times from each sector I should be ~ 2 seconds a lap faster. That's not doing anything to the car, just the rusty and old driver getting in one lap where I get it all right.

Cheers

Gary

[Stupid Toyota]

The boost limit removed, weight limit ignored Gibson #2 car with Seton driving at Oran Park.

The M Speed GTR based on its 5 second advantage over Mark on R tyres, as it must be faster on slicks

Ah, ok. Thought you were talking actual occurances not theoretical. Theoretically you could bring a RWD Super GT 4cyl Supra over here too and kick the V8's butt. The original question by spannerx seems to have been lost along the way with fantasy and hill climbs and stuff making its way in here.

That or an F3 driver, our one of those is lighter.

I thought so, but I dont think too many people on this forums fall into those categories often

At the last V8SuperCar practise day I attended, there were 4 guys with Mechanical Engineering Degrees, 2 guys with Electronics Engineering degrees, 1 guy with both, 8 qualified mechanics, 1 Doctor of Electronics, 2 apprentices, 2 guys with Degrees in Management and 3 drivers. That's over 250 hours of development on ONE CAR in ONE DAY, I don't know about you but it would take me over 3 years to get anywhere near close to that.

I think you really be surprised at how much time can be gained with a plan of attack and the time to execute it. A simple example, I spent the usual 1 full day with the Production Car team at Oran Park at the start of the season, something we do every year. The idea is to make the car faster this year than it was last year. In a production car there is very limited scope for development, but we still managed to find 0.8 second with a progression of set up changes. Do you have a data logger in the car? If not then you are doing development in the dark, by feel rather than cold hard data. That's both car and driver develoment. I'm not preaching from a very high place here, if I divide Oran Park up into 6 sectors and add my fastest times from each sector I should be ~ 2 seconds a lap faster. That's not doing anything to the car, just the rusty and old driver getting in one lap where I get it all right.

I didnt say my times were great, nor that I have any qualifications. I also dont have any data logging instruments and I know that with all of the above plus a support team I could go faster for sure. I turn up to the track, on my own. I turn my own tools and mostly build my own car. Im in it for the fun, and happen to do ok considering. If I had the budget of some GTR owners I think they'd be looking pretty slow by now

Fact is, I turn up with a smile, and I smile all the way through the race, and so long as nothing gets broken i leave with a smile. I'd love to be able to do nothing more then race every weekend, but sadly the budget says otherwise.

Anyway, my comparitive times above was to give an indication of a pretty quick RWD car Vs a GTR Vs a V8SC on the same track.

[Sydneykid]

Ah, ok. Thought you were talking actual occurances not theoretical.

The first one was an actual, 2007 the day after the Konicas and it was 0.75 ses faster.

The second one was I thought a reasonable calculation.

I thought so, but I dont think too many people on this forums fall into those categories often

I sure as hell don't

I didnt say my times were great, nor that I have any qualifications.

I did'nt say they were terrible either. I was simply demonstrating the untapped potential.

I also dont have any data logging instruments

So if I said I could improve your lap times by 2 seconds for $2.5K by adding 100bhp from a better turbo, would you buy it?

Now what if I said I could improve your lap times by 2 seconds for $2.5K by using a data logger? Would that be as attractive?

Most guys would jump at the turbo and not look twice at the data, but 2 seconds is 2 seconds no matter how you get it.

I know that with all of the above plus a support team I could go faster for sure. I turn up to the track, on my own. I turn my own tools and mostly build my own car. Im in it for the fun, and happen to do ok considering. If I had the budget of some GTR owners I think they'd be looking pretty slow by now

But what if you paid someone to do the hack work for you? I had an apprentice mechanic help out for a year, he learnt lots about race cars and I had more fun not changing wheels, bleeding brakes, filling the tank and all the other non technical crap that you have to do when you go racing.

Fact is, I turn up with a smile, and I smile all the way through the race, and so long as nothing gets broken i leave with a smile. I'd love to be able to do nothing more then race every weekend, but sadly the budget says otherwise.

I know the feeling, I can't decide whether money or time is my worst enemy.

Anyway, my comparitive times above was to give an indication of a pretty quick RWD car Vs a GTR Vs a V8SC on the same track.

The problem I have is with slicks, they can easily mask a whole pile of other problems with their high initial grip levels. A apparently quick lap is possible even with a lousy set up, but when you get the set up right the lap times drop very fast. To areas that previously seemed impossible to achieve. There is no magic bullet, working constantly on the set up pays off, even if it is little by little.

Cheers

Gary

[r33_racer]

John you and dad need to stop stirring shit....dad should be back in the shed working on the race car and you should be on a toyota forum...

[spannerx]

John you and dad need to stop stirring shit....dad should be back in the shed working on the race car and you should be on a toyota forum...

Michael we are just digging for the truth;;

[Stupid Toyota]

The first one was an actual, 2007 the day after the Konicas and it was 0.75 ses faster.

The second one was I thought a reasonable calculation.

I sure as hell don't

I did'nt say they were terrible either. I was simply demonstrating the untapped potential.

So if I said I could improve your lap times by 2 seconds for $2.5K by adding 100bhp from a better turbo, would you buy it?

Now what if I said I could improve your lap times by 2 seconds for $2.5K by using a data logger? Would that be as attractive?

Most guys would jump at the turbo and not look twice at the data, but 2 seconds is 2 seconds no matter how you get it.

But what if you paid someone to do the hack work for you? I had an apprentice mechanic help out for a year, he learnt lots about race cars and I had more fun not changing wheels, bleeding brakes, filling the tank and all the other non technical crap that you have to do when you go racing.

I know the feeling, I can't decide whether money or time is my worst enemy.

The problem I have is with slicks, they can easily mask a whole pile of other problems with their high initial grip levels. A apparently quick lap is possible even with a lousy set up, but when you get the set up right the lap times drop very fast. To areas that previously seemed impossible to achieve. There is no magic bullet, working constantly on the set up pays off, even if it is little by little.

Man, this is getting hard to reply to so I'll be lazy this time lol

So an unrestricted group A car with a professional driver beat a V8. Ok, but that really doesnt translate to our world all that well I think the original intention of Spannerx's post was related to amateurs however I concede your example is valid even if unreachable by you or I

To be honest I had sufficient power so Id have gone with the data logging I was working my way into the suspension when my account said enough (right after #6 piston cried the same thing)

I wasn't complaining about doing it myself. I prefer it that way, even though it's slow to get it done as Im easily distracted.

Accountability is simpler then too lol. If a wheel falls off there's only one person to blame.

Definately money is the biggest enemy. There are SO many cool things out there available for a car. Time is not a huge problem if you have the money available.

Giants car was on slicks I think, as was mine and a V8's but I wanted to go wider then a 265. I had hell trouble getting the power down cleanly. Softer, wider tyres would have given a good time improvement alone but I only had mediums available and only 10in rims so I was temporarily stymied. Next time it'll be different.

John you and dad need to stop stirring shit....dad should be back in the shed working on the race car and you should be on a toyota forum...

Shouldn't you be on a bike forum Michael? Or maybe chasing girls? I hear the skirts have more of your attention these days then cars

Michael we are just digging for the truth;;

Cue X Files music... the truth is out there...

[Sydneykid]

Man, this is getting hard to reply to so I'll be lazy this time lol

It's easy

So an unrestricted group A car with a professional driver beat a V8. Ok, but that really doesnt translate to our world all that well I think the original intention of Spannerx's post was related to amateurs however I concede your example is valid even if unreachable by you or I

I didn't think there was a restriction on how it's done, just that it is.

To be honest I had sufficient power so Id have gone with the data logging I was working my way into the suspension when my account said enough (right after #6 piston cried the same thing)

I wasn't complaining about doing it myself. I prefer it that way, even though it's slow to get it done as Im easily distracted.

Accountability is simpler then too lol. If a wheel falls off there's only one person to blame.

The apprentice puts on the wheels, but we have one driver who still checks the wheel nuts himself

Definately money is the biggest enemy. There are SO many cool things out there available for a car. Time is not a huge problem if you have the money available.

That's the thing I already have enough stuff, I just need time to fit it, tune it and then (the big one) develop it. Without buying one extra go faster bit I reckon there is many seconds in the cars, all we need is time to develop them.

I had hell trouble getting the power down cleanly.

That's a set up problem, if you have power down problems on 11" wide slicks then the set up needs work.

Softer, wider tyres would have given a good time improvement alone but I only had mediums available and only 10in rims so I was temporarily stymied.

It's too easy to reach for the crutch of softer tyres, that's why most Sports Sedans never achieve the speed that their specifications suggest that they they should. "Don't worry about fixing the handling, just whack some sticky tyres on it".

Next time it'll be different.

Until the tyres turn to mush.

Cheers

Gary

[spannerx]

It's easy

I didn't think there was a restriction on how it's done, just that it is.

The apprentice puts on the wheels, but we have one driver who still checks the wheel nuts himself

That's the thing I already have enough stuff, I just need time to fit it, tune it and then (the big one) develop it. Without buying one extra go faster bit I reckon there is many seconds in the cars, all we need is time to develop them.

That's a set up problem, if you have power down problems on 11" wide slicks then the set up needs work.

It's too easy to reach for the crutch of softer tyres, that's why most Sports Sedans never achieve the speed that their specifications suggest that they they should. "Don't worry about fixing the handling, just whack some sticky tyres on it".

Until the tyres turn to mush.

Cheers

Gary

Gary if the mushy tyres are available people will use them its all about the final result;;

[Roy]

... if I divide Oran Park up into 6 sectors and add my fastest times from each sector I should be ~ 2 seconds a lap faster. That's not doing anything to the car, just the rusty and old driver getting in one lap where I get it all right...

LOL, because i am about the only guy in SAU-Vic (BBGTR springs to mind, but thats about it) who uses a data logger. I have found it gets me into trouble. I know by looking at the data the times i can do if i just got more then 8-10 laps per day to get me and the car dialled in at a Club Sprint. I mention them as goals before things like engine transplants and ppl laugh. But to date i have not failed to reach a target time on my visits to PI & Sandown. Would have got my Winton time except for being held up by a slower car on the quick lap out of the two i have done with no car problems

My time, which is still a little over 2 seconds what it should be (should, not could. It could be about 3 seconds at one circuit but no lap is perfect) is enough to give me some real bragging rights with the Vic-GTR guys. And that is just with the driving, not setting the car up to make the most of what mods i already have.

The two best things i ever did, watch Duncan kick my ass in his std R33 GTS25t with DO1Js around Wakefield. It made me realise that my driving was miles of what i could dare call respectable. Second was buying the data logger, reveals so much about what i am actually doing.

[Stupid Toyota]

It's easy

I didn't think there was a restriction on how it's done, just that it is.

The apprentice puts on the wheels, but we have one driver who still checks the wheel nuts himself

That's the thing I already have enough stuff, I just need time to fit it, tune it and then (the big one) develop it. Without buying one extra go faster bit I reckon there is many seconds in the cars, all we need is time to develop them.

That's a set up problem, if you have power down problems on 11" wide slicks then the set up needs work.

It's too easy to reach for the crutch of softer tyres, that's why most Sports Sedans never achieve the speed that their specifications suggest that they they should. "Don't worry about fixing the handling, just whack some sticky tyres on it".

Until the tyres turn to mush.

Cheers

Gary

Maybe i should quote you out of context too huh? Then I could sound all condescending as well.

[ZENNON]

now now guys play nice

[fatz]

ill take the turbo

data loggers are like girlfirends

f*kn hard to understand!

[Roy]

I took the data logger because i am good at playing with myself

[fatz]

so true

[Bozman1]

HAHAHA I cannot believe how much this topic has got off track.

[Sydneykid]

Gary if the mushy tyres are available people will use them its all about the final result;;

Qualifying softness tyres start off OK and, because of the incorrect set up, they turn to mush, you don't buy them "mushy". Anyway, that's not my point, the problem is we could achieve the times without qualifying tyres if we had the set up right. If we then use qualifying tyres with the right set up, we go even faster.

As BOZ points out we have strayed, I stick by what I posted, for the same total amount of money spent there is no reason why a GTST shouldn'y be as fast as GTR, if not faster. The GTR definitely gets ahead when the power level exceeds the rear tyres capacity to maintain traction in a driver controlled fashion.

Cheers

Gary

[Roy]

I still think it would be interesting to see a GTSt with decent mods and how it compares to a well sorted GTR.

There is only an R34 GTT that i can think of that has all the major boxes ticked, and to date is a little slower then me as the package is still being tied together and developed. No doubt when sorted and a few more kms under the belt it will be a quick car. Credit to the guy for all the hard work as he could have gone the less painful route and got an R34 GTR. Only its a shame its an R34 GTT as they basically weigh what an R32 GTR does so there is no real payback for being rwd.

[ZENNON]

Only its a shame its an R34 GTT as they basically weigh what an R32 GTR

That can be fixed

[260DET]

............................................................, for the same total amount of money spent there is no reason why a GTST shouldn'y be as fast as GTR, if not faster. The GTR definitely gets ahead when the power level exceeds the rear tyres capacity to maintain traction in a driver controlled fashion.

Cheers

Gary

Interesting comment. Which seems contra to what usually is the outcome ie a good four wheel driver will always beat a good two wheeler.

But if you were talking fun and driver skill then two wheels FTW