Is Hsv W427 Worth $150k-$170k?

[m3gtr]

the fonz wont look as good or sound anywhere as hot in its life tho

lol, Ivan i wont disagree with that although i like the boxer throb...

[Roy]

Roy, mate - youre missing my point at the start but coming around at the end of your post.

Im not arguing the fact that OHC's can make power - shit look at top fuelers! Add a blower or a snail and ofcourse you make massive power. So what?

Yes..sure. Its been done and dusted. Then brushed off and done again. Im talking about advancement mate.

The kind of stuff Holden knows very little about and would be struggling to justify in the face of hard edged journo's tearing into the fact that the car has a 170k pricetag. Sorry Roy, the math does not add up.

You mean to tell me the GTR and 911 arent any better than the 427 - even just because they employ more advanced technologies? Come on mate, thats one of the biggest reasons theyre better - AND they make the tricks work! Im not arguing the fact that Cubes equals power - that has been an equation we all grew up to understand.

I could go on with this.

What i am amazed at is that Japanese technology has always pushed the envelope, developed new areas of technology - and EFFICIENCY ( just look at hybrid technology!! Name ONE aussie car with a sniff of the stuff. You may laugh now..." that oil crisis and price bullshit is garbage" - yeh sure..ill be laughing later. )- that werent available to us before. You may argue the case for the pushrod being applicable in the right situation, historically, numerically, logistically... but i will counter argue with this...

So...Holden decided to build a stomping great big 7 liter 427 cube motor inspite of the fact that theres a ..well you know it..a GLOBAL oil crisis and all the effects that go with burning the stuff. Slightly insensitive wouldnt you agree and more than a touch arrogant. Thats only the surface of it but IS NOT my main point.

The Holden motor is a Chev for a start. The tech specs came from the US arm of GM...

Ok, very simple question for you. So by advancement, you are referring to DOHC, tricky gearboxes etc. Please tell me why a DOHC V8 would be better in a Commodore?

Also, re the displacement. Have you checked the displacement of things like AMGs etc etc lately. Seen the displacement that Lambos etc are using to make the power these days. So why single out Holden?

I realise this. One other thing that irks the shit out of me is that Aussie manufacturers cant seem to understand the concept of WEIGHT REDUCTION.

i DONT understand. Why does the HSV HAVE to weigh nearly 2 tonnes!!??

It makes NO sense at all.

NO HSV has to be that heavy. Simple as that.

I swear, Holden needs to talk to its metal refinery ASAFP.

WHat do all modern cars weigh these days. Ppl rave about the GTR, look at what it weighs and it has adopted all sorts of exotic materials. The HSV weighs what it does mostly because of the crash tests requirements and airbag, side curtains, all the other safety systems adn luxury items...not to mention its a big 4 door car.

And why single out Aussie manufacturers? Again, go look at what other performance mid sized. large sized sedans are weighing from BMW, Mercedes, Audi whoever you care to mention. Now tell me the Holden is significantly heavier, hell some of the cars i mentioned are made of alloy panels etc etc and still weigh more.

It sometimes surprises me when local manuf get singled out for the trend that is modern, expensice, overly electronic cars. LOL, rather then type dribble we need to sit down and have a few beers while we discuss the point

[scotty014]

i totally agree with 'm3gtr' for that price what special gadgets do you get in it other than your radio air con and a cd player. it must come with a concrete block in the boot as well to weigh that much.dont get me wrong its a great engine but it should come with something else for that price range there is nothing special about the rest of the body work or electronics at all.also brining it out at a bad time with the whole fuel thing. makes them look like that they dont care and arent looking for a solution at all.

[m3gtr]

Ok, very simple question for you. So by advancement, you are referring to DOHC, tricky gearboxes etc. Please tell me why a DOHC V8 would be better in a Commodore?

Also, re the displacement. Have you checked the displacement of things like AMGs etc etc lately. Seen the displacement that Lambos etc are using to make the power these days. So why single out Holden?

WHat do all modern cars weigh these days. Ppl rave about the GTR, look at what it weighs and it has adopted all sorts of exotic materials. The HSV weighs what it does mostly because of the crash tests requirements and airbag, side curtains, all the other safety systems adn luxury items...not to mention its a big 4 door car.

And why single out Aussie manufacturers? Again, go look at what other performance mid sized. large sized sedans are weighing from BMW, Mercedes, Audi whoever you care to mention. Now tell me the Holden is significantly heavier, hell some of the cars i mentioned are made of alloy panels etc etc and still weigh more.

Roy, please tell me you dont want to have this discussion.

Im not referring to DOHC and certainly not referring "trick" G.B's

Advancement to me is exactly what it is to you without you having to say its the way it is Roy. You know im right on this.

I love a good scrap ( read - discussion/debate ) with you mate, its a shame i cant hold my ground when it comes to teh F1 O's.

I just cannot understand the lag within the Aussie circles ( O's ) in relation to the automotive industry. It all goes back to the parent company, GM...the Cheque writers.

Thats the final hole in the wall. Its a shame but GM will always have an agenda and a purse-string attached to the Holden/Aussie car industry.

I wish it wasnt so mate...i wish it wasnt so.

Edited June 3, 2008 by m3gtr

[bozodos]

Somehow I don't think a twin turbo 3.8 litre GT-R is the answer to the oil crisis either, None of the cars mentioned here are built with economy in mind, but just FYI, the emissions and fuel consumption on the 5.7 litre chev motors at least were LESS than the old holden 5 litre, they only upgraded the entire range to the 6 litre to comply with Euro 3 emissions standards, and hitting the 3-400 kw range in any car with any motor is going to be burning a fair amount of fuel, theres no two ways about it.

If you really wanted to get all in a huff about technological advancement, couldn't you then say that the japs really just slavishly copied the europeans? I'm pretty sure the japs for all their engineering brilliance, didnt completely invent the wheel so to speak.

At the end of the day, consumer demand dictates the direction a car company is going to head into, and 1 in every 5 commodores sold at the moment is a V8, and HSV's having increasing growth still, would indicate that the populace still wants to drive their V8s, at least for the near future.

The weight of the whole VE series does verge on the porcine, but as far as I know, the falcons are still in fact heavier, and these cars are designed to haul 5 fat aussies around plus all their junk, you'd probably find that most of its competitors would be skimping out along the way there in the space respect.

[Roy]

Thats the final hole in the wall. Its a shame but GM will always have an agenda and a purse-string attached to the Holden/Aussie car industry.

I wish it wasnt so mate...i wish it wasnt so.

I suppose thats the thing, i look at the cars with consideration of what they have to work with,

What i was getting at is look at the price of a manual SS. Scary expensive to me, and its relatively cheap for a new performance car. SO add better gearbox, more advanced drivetrain, DOHC engine with the occassional use of alloy panels, suspension components etc and the dollars will spiral out of control. They are built and designed to a cost for our market, which is users and conditions.

Holden isnt in the position to build cars for the global market. Our conditions dont readily lend them selves to the Asian market and it would be silly to go up against BMW, Mercedes and Audi in their own markets withoug HM/Opel bank rolling the whole thing. But again how many 5 series get sold compared to 3 series, so Opel with the Vectra etc already have what they need.

So HSV get given their bits to do with what they can.

I see the faults in them, but looking at what other manufacturers produce i am quite impressed with what Holden muster, I only wish GM would give them the chance to design and build cars for their other markets, (other then Dubai and HSVs in UK, where they are loved by the way)

[m3gtr]

Roy, my online counterpart ( i say this not as a joke mate ),

I have seen the cubic capacities of the current lineups and its made me wonder..

Where will it stop? Mercedes has a 6.3 C class and i have to ask myself is it necessary. Perhaps not, but i will say that they know a lot more on cubic efficiency that their Aussie or American counterparts thats for sure.

Is it needed. Well, again the bigger the better, right?

Im not singling out "Holden" as you would have it. They are a "prime"example of the wastefulness that is corporate America in a nutshell. Look at the hummer. A fad, a trend, a phenomenon if you will and all that from a vehicle that originated from war usage?

The GTR, to all Nissans credit is making use of current technologies and advancements to best effect with as little waste as possible economically, ecologically and financially as possible.

GM and Holden for use of a better word could well do follow suit.

Doesnt the world have enough drainage?

[m3gtr]

Somehow I don't think a twin turbo 3.8 litre GT-R is the answer to the oil crisis either, None of the cars mentioned here are built with economy in mind, but just FYI, the emissions and fuel consumption on the 5.7 litre chev motors at least were LESS than the old holden 5 litre, they only upgraded the entire range to the 6 litre to comply with Euro 3 emissions standards, and hitting the 3-400 kw range in any car with any motor is going to be burning a fair amount of fuel, theres no two ways about it.

If you really wanted to get all in a huff about technological advancement, couldn't you then say that the japs really just slavishly copied the europeans? I'm pretty sure the japs for all their engineering brilliance, didnt completely invent the wheel so to speak.

At the end of the day, consumer demand dictates the direction a car company is going to head into, and 1 in every 5 commodores sold at the moment is a V8, and HSV's having increasing growth still, would indicate that the populace still wants to drive their V8s, at least for the near future.

The weight of the whole VE series does verge on the porcine, but as far as I know, the falcons are still in fact heavier, and these cars are designed to haul 5 fat aussies around plus all their junk, you'd probably find that most of its competitors would be skimping out along the way there in the space respect.

Well said i have to say. Think about this though.

I never said the 3.8 TT was economical but it is a damn sight more than anything in the GM lineup. Progress is progress is progress. I agree anything that produces that much power has to burn something but it doesnt have to be so.

LOL, look at the 430hp lexus Gas/electric engine Toyota has developed that prouces just 20%..yes 20% of the emissions of GM's/Holdens finest and you see my point.

Thats plenty of poke in anyones lingo. Porsche is also in on the game as are many others.

Is GM? Nope/

Holden..if GM isnt how could Holden be>

Ford on the other hand has more European concerns and as such their cars reflect this.

[Eug]

maybe it's something to bring up with GM Adam?

i wouldn't buy it, but i'd definitely thrash the hell out of it if given the chance

[m3gtr]

maybe it's something to bring up with GM Adam?

i wouldn't buy it, but i'd definitely thrash the hell out of it if given the chance

lol, Eug, you can forward this if you like.. i know where i stand in my "understanding" of this situation//

Youre not trying to do a Dan and tell me to shut the f**k up are you mate...?? Sorry - you are a mod and all...

Will i get a warning because Gm emailed you and told you to silence me? ( its not a dig at you Eug -just the irony of it all...after all - i was ready to walk away from this forum only a few hours ago and yet here i am in a debate...feisty, passionate and fired up as always... )

unfortunately, i know pretty much where they stand as well.../

Id love to give it a boot too mate...doesnt mean i agree with whats gone into it.

Edited June 3, 2008 by m3gtr

[kralster]

cant say id ever even consider spending that sort of money on something that at the end of the day, falls into the catagory or being a commodore lol

lol minus the gtr you just described every performance variant of the skyline.

[kralster]

I wonder how one would compare to the new GT-R

At the end of the day though part of the price at least is the exclusivity factor, its about time HSV started making cars which were more than just an SS with pumped up brakes, bodykit, interior and exhaust. Sounds good, but I'd buy an M3 personally for that sort of money.

lol minus the gtr you just described every performance variant of the skyline.

[Merli]

Disgusting front end.

Bring out that "Holden Coupe 60" that was in the Motor Magazine with the R35 GTR review. I read every word of that article and relieved myself multiple times over those pictures before even trying to find the R35 GTR article

I would seriously consider buying that Holden Coupe 60 if it looks like that prototype model

[hoony]

X2 for its a holden at the end of the day.

i would feel like such a tool my friends would have to call me sidchrome

umm... sorry but i had to say this...

thorpe84, is your avatar being serious!?

[m3gtr]

piczorban merli

[Kaido_RR]

Dude, its a 170k taxi. Do you see any GTR's or 911's being driven around as taxis? There is a very distinct divide between the "branding" and engineering - right well there should be.

Not even in Japan, where i reside, does this happen. There is no public image or brand association tag that even has the cooking variety and the works version in the same league. Not in Oz where a commonwhore is a commondore is a commodore. There has never really been any differentiation if you think about it. Sure HSV tried to break the mould but the mocker stuck. Yes, HSV "Holdens" are not the cooking variety but that doesnt detract from their origins.

The main point to all this is that a holden will still always be that...a Holden.

It has very little brand value except for within Australia and its almost deplorable that Holden actually thinks the car is worth the pricetag of a modern day supercar.

A holden as a supercar??? Yeah, like those two words match when it comes to street cars. Only on Sundays mate and only when good old Skayfie is drivin! Wheres the VB!

It amazes me that holden is trying to pump up the local prices this far in regards to what aussies will be led to believe is a supercar. Its an insult actually.

Holden is smart - or brazenly outrageous. They are preying on the public image and the strength of the aussie dollar and economy to turn over vehicles and then jack up prices based on perception, history, hype and media speculation. The public dont give a rats about anythiong else other than history.

Anyone care to take a crack at why the original 427 never made it to production? Ill give you a hint - economy.

Cripes, if Brockie were alive today and his signature was on this thing it would be worth more than 200k, LOL!

The comment about the new 427 being on par with the GTR in any stretch of the imagination is exactly what was said it was - and that is farcical.

I will be waiting to see the 427 get demolished by the GTR in every comparo an Oz mag can muster...

Oh and if anything else happens other than a complete demolition, ill eat my jocks, socks and my wifes frocks because if this does happen - it will be saying that the 427 is better than the 911 turbo, Corvette and GTR on even terms and thats a complete load of horse shit if you ask me.

..

oh! sorry! ...w...was i ranting? Please accept my most humble apologies...

and a nissan is still a dutsun at the end of the day

[Merli]

[Merli]

The Official Holden Press Release:

Holden Fans Get 60th Anniversary Present

GM Holden today marked the diamond anniversary of its first all Australian car by unveiling a stunning two-door performance thoroughbred called Coupe 60.

Coupe 60 celebrates the six decades since GM Holden built the 48-215 at its Fishermans Bend plant in Port Melbourne, Victoria, and provides a glimpse of Holden's future directions in design, engineering and emerging engine technologies.

Exemplifying sports luxury, Coupe 60 is a pillarless concept car that explores the limits of Holden's current rear-wheel drive capabilities, combining racing looks and technology into a road going sportscar experience.

Its sophisticated appearance is delivered through simple and powerful design, highlighted by the pillarless construction and V8 supercar inspired cockpit layout and side-exiting chambered exhaust system with billet alloy tips.

Almost 60mm shorter than the VE sedan, and sitting on 21-inch centre-lock alloy wheels with unique design Kumho high performance semi-slick tyres, Coupe 60 captures all that's exciting about the Holden DNA.

Other racing-derived enhancements include full flat under body, rear underbody air diffuser and functional rear deck-lid spoiler with unique designed LED tail lamps.

The interior also has several unique features. They include one piece carbon fiber bucket seats (featuring leather and suede pad design) and a sports-inspired flat bottomed steering wheel with integrated shift light display and LCD sports instrument cluster.

The high gloss carbon fiber carries through to doors and rear trim providing a contrast to the leather trimmed instrument panel and black suede trimmed pillars, headliners and parcel shelf.

Details and accents are picked out with a distinctive red high shine leather on the seats and dark gunmetal finish and satin chrome on the consoles and doors.

Front seats are adjustable fore and aft to allow easy access to the rear, with four-point race harness restraints for all seating positions.

Under the bonnet is just as forward looking, with a 6.0 litre V8 engine incorporating the latest technologies such as active fuel management and calibrated for E85 ethanol fuel.

Even the paint is a one-off. Called 'Diamond Silver' by Holden designers, it gives a liquid aluminium finish that almost slides off the bodywork.

GM Holden Chairman and Managing Director Mark Reuss said, "Coupe 60 is Holden's 60th anniversary gift to its fans worldwide.

"It highlights Holden's heritage of rear wheel drive performance whilst looking ahead to the potential offered by new technologies and materials.

"This is a vehicle I know our designers would dearly love to see go into production, but for the moment it has to remain a concept only," he said.

Project Designer Manager, Peter Hughes, said, "We were looking to mark the diamond anniversary with a car that captured the Holden DNA and took the current VE range to an exciting next step.

"Even in the early stages of VE development, we knew there was a sensational coupe waiting to get out and the 60 th anniversary has given us the chance to explore that.

"With Coupe 60 we think we have designed a car that has the potential to write another chapter in the book of Holden icons."

Coupe 60 – Specifications and Features (Coupe 60 overlaid on VE Sedan)

Main Features:

Pillarless coupe body;

Derived from flexible GRWD platform;

VE sedan wheelbase.

Powertrain:

6.0L V8 with Active Fuel Management, calibrated for E85 Ethanol fuel;

6-speed manual transmission (SS specification);

Engine oil cooler.

Exterior:

Unique "Diamond Silver" paint colour;

Electrically dropping front & rear side windows;

Racing-derived aerodynamic down-force enhancements:

Rear under-body air diffuser;

Full flat under body;

Functional rear deck-lid spoiler;

21-inch centre-lock alloy wheels;

Unique design Kumho high-performance semi-slick tyres;

High-performance Brembo brake hardware with ducted air cooling for front callipers;

Side-exiting chambered exhaust system with billet alloy tips;

Unique design LED tail lamps;

Exterior mirrors with integral LED side markers.

Interior:

V8-Supercar inspired cockpit layout for enhanced driver visibility and spaciousness;

LCD sports instrument cluster located in a unique column-mounted binnacle;

One-piece carbon fiber bucket seats, featuring unique suede-pad design and distinctive red high shine leather accents;

Front seats are adjustable fore-aft and allow easy access to rear;

Four-point race harness restraints for all seating positions;

Unique sports-inspired flat-bottom steering wheel with integrated shift light display and suede grips;

Unique interior details including air vents, column switches, gear shift knob and pedals.

Interior trim.

Perforated leather trimmed instrument panel;

Black suede trimmed pillars, headliner and parcel shelf;

High gloss carbon fiber used as a structural material for seats, doors and rear trim provides contrast to leather and suede trim;

Details and accents are picked out with red high shine leather, a dark gunmetal finish and satin chrome.

2008 is a diamond year for GM Holden which will be recognising a number of key anniversaries. These include: the 60 th anniversary of Australia's Own Car – the 48-215; the 50th anniversary of the founding of Holden Vehicle Operations at Elizabeth; 40 years since the introduction of Monaro; 30 years of the Commodore nameplate; and the General Motors centennial.

[m3gtr]

LOL, rather then type dribble we need to sit down and have a few beers while we discuss the point

Ahaha, sorry mate, i was so wrapped up in the discussion i missed teh most important part!

yes, you can count on beer or 10 with me at some stage - that'd be wicked.

[m3gtr]

The Official Holden Press ( garbage ) Release:

Holden Fans Get 60th Anniversary Present

GM Holden today marked the diamond anniversary of its first all Australian car by unveiling a stunning two-door performance thoroughbred called Coupe 60.

Coupe 60 celebrates the six decades since GM Holden built the 48-215 at its Fishermans Bend plant in Port Melbourne, Victoria, and provides a glimpse of Holden's future directions in design, engineering and emerging engine technologies.

Exemplifying sports luxury, Coupe 60 is a pillarless concept car

( nothing new there ) that explores ( not..exploits..? Its all in the wording.. ) the limits of Holden's current rear-wheel drive capabilities ( they brag about being behind what others are capable in a way if you read it correctly ) , combining racing looks and technology into a road going sportscar experience... ( with a supercar pricetag, thankyou very much. )

Its sophisticated appearance is delivered through simple ( unoriginal ) and powerful ( old fashioned ) design, highlighted by the pillarless ( how many times do you need to harp on about the pillarless doors? )construction and V8 supercar inspired cockpit layout ( a massive plug to the fans )and side-exiting chambered exhaust system with billet alloy tips. ( wow, im sure the environment is stoked with that development. Side tips…revolutionary man. )

Almost 60mm shorter than the VE sedan, and sitting on 21-inch centre-lock alloy wheels with unique design Kumho ( couldn't you afford Japanese or European rubber? ) high performance semi-slick tyres ( are they even road legal ), Coupe 60 captures all that's exciting about the Holden DNA. ( hmm…DNA… enough said.. )

Sorry Merli..i couldn't even be bothered reading through the rest of the garbage “press release”.

Edited June 3, 2008 by m3gtr