Is Hsv W427 Worth $150k-$170k?

[Yidz]

M3GTR - I can appreciate your argument about the fact that there ARE so many other options that you could buy in this price bracket, but I think you are missing some other people's points. I don't think anyone here has said that they would spend $170k on this car. I'd say these people would be members on LS1.com.au or SC. People that have a love for Skylines of course are not going to justify spending this sort of money on the 427 when they could buy the new GTR that they are so passionate about! I don't think a GTR is worth $150,000 to buy, but you probably see these threads in other forums...

You have to understand that there is a market for these cars in this country. That's why people are paying over $100k for a VS GTS-R and hundreds of thousands for Walkinshaws & other various HDT vehicles. Now, these vehicles may be classic's in some people's minds but I'm sure you think the GTS'R is the most uglyest creation you have seen, yet, with it's cloth interior, 5l donk, 10 year old technology and aging looks, people are willing to spend this kind of money on it, and there aren't enough around to suffice the demand people have looking for them!

Is this car worth the money? To you, of course not. To people whom have grown up living and breathing Holden through the countless years of trecking to Bathurst, Summernats & other events, it's the least they could do to be part of the history.

Now, obviously the 427 is brand new and it's not the second hand market that is setting the medium price for these cars but's its still largely based on the supply and demand factor for this car. It might not have some technological aspects that some cars in the same price bracket have, but then again a M3 may not have the same features as an RS4. Sure, it may have more as a whole than an M3, but the people that want this car would be the people who have lived and breathed Holden their whole life, probably do have something like a VK Grp A in their garage who have done well for themselves and want to purchase the most exclusive HSV on the market.

To answer the question in the thread topic, I don't think this car is worth the $170k tag it brings, but sometimes it's not all in the features of the car. It's the exclusiveness that this car brings to person buying it knowing they have the top of the line HSV with all boxes ticked. I certainly think to justify spending that money you would, to some extent, be buying a car that means something to you.. and some people may just not see any sentimental value in buying an RS4 or M3. To buy and own one of the biggest release HSV's ever, may mean more to some.

[m3gtr]

M3GTR - I can appreciate your argument about the fact that there ARE so many other options that you could buy in this price bracket, but I think you are missing some other people's points. I don't think anyone here has said that they would spend $170k on this car. I'd say these people would be members on LS1.com.au or SC. People that have a love for Skylines of course are not going to justify spending this sort of money on the 427 when they could buy the new GTR that they are so passionate about! I don't think a GTR is worth $150,000 to buy, but you probably see these threads in other forums...

You have to understand that there is a market for these cars in this country. That's why people are paying over $100k for a VS GTS-R and hundreds of thousands for Walkinshaws & other various HDT vehicles. Now, these vehicles may be classic's in some people's minds but I'm sure you think the GTS'R is the most uglyest creation you have seen, yet, with it's cloth interior, 5l donk, 10 year old technology and aging looks, people are willing to spend this kind of money on it, and there aren't enough around to suffice the demand people have looking for them!

Is this car worth the money? To you, of course not. To people whom have grown up living and breathing Holden through the countless years of trecking to Bathurst, Summernats & other events, it's the least they could do to be part of the history.

Now, obviously the 427 is brand new and it's not the second hand market that is setting the medium price for these cars but's its still largely based on the supply and demand factor for this car. It might not have some technological aspects that some cars in the same price bracket have, but then again a M3 may not have the same features as an RS4. Sure, it may have more as a whole than an M3, but the people that want this car would be the people who have lived and breathed Holden their whole life, probably do have something like a VK Grp A in their garage who have done well for themselves and want to purchase the most exclusive HSV on the market.

To answer the question in the thread topic, I don't think this car is worth the $170k tag it brings, but sometimes it's not all in the features of the car. It's the exclusiveness that this car brings to person buying it knowing they have the top of the line HSV with all boxes ticked. I certainly think to justify spending that money you would, to some extent, be buying a car that means something to you.. and some people may just not see any sentimental value in buying an RS4 or M3. To buy and own one of the biggest release HSV's ever, may mean more to some.

Point taken and yep you hit that one on the head. Sentimental value is a pretty crazy thing to blow 170k on, wouldnt you agree? Nostalgia also.

I think youve said it best when you bought up the fact that because if the rarity, the car is more desirable - sure any rich wanker can go out and buy an M3. Only nostalgic rich wankers would buy the 427,lol

Jokes aside, think about this. How and when did Holden come up with the thought that they could charge this amount of money for a car based on the assumptions that Aussies will gobble it up because of Brockie, Skafie, the Mountain and grunt?

Thats pretty f**kin arrogant if you ask me.

BMW for example sell cars because people are buying the whole package. Name any Exotica. They dont have blatantly over ambitious expectations. I think any ferrari commands the price thats attached to it. Why? Because youre bying it for the same reasons youd buy the Commodore.

So whats the bloody difference i hear you ask?

Three words. "Holden and Ferrari".... look at those two words again and ask yourself the question.

For Holden to even think they are in the same mindframe as the person who buys the ferrari smacks of complete and utter arrogance.

It smells to me. At least that does.

Ive seen bitches here in Japan drop 4 grand on a handbag and all that for exclusivity...

Exclusivity as i said is overrated.

Nice post Yidz - i enjoyed that.

Edited June 5, 2008 by m3gtr

[Yidz]

Point taken and yep you hit that one on the head. Sentimental value is a pretty crazy thing to blow 170k on, wouldnt you agree? Nostalgia also.

I think youve said it best when you bought up the fact that because if the rarity, the car is more desirable - sure any rich wanker can go out and buy an M3. Only nostalgic rich wankers would buy the 427,lol

Jokes aside, think about this. How and when did Holden come up with the thought that they could charge this amount of money for a car based on the assumptions that Aussies will gobble it up because of Brockie, Skafie, the Mountain and grunt?

Thats pretty f**kin arrogant if you ask me.

BMW for example sell cars because people are buying the whole package. Name any Exotica. They dont have blatantly over ambitious expectations. I think any ferrari commands the price thats attached to it. Why? Because youre bying it for the same reasons youd buy the Commodore.

So whats the bloody difference i hear you ask?

Three words. "Holden and Ferrari".... look at those two words again and ask yourself the question.

For Holden to even think they are in the same mindframe as the person who buys the ferrari smacks of complete and utter arrogance.

It smells to me. At least that does.

Ive seen bitches here in Japan drop 4 grand on a handbag and all that for exclusivity...

Exclusivity as i said is overrated.

Nice post Yidz - i enjoyed that.

Exclusivity to some people is everything. Why own a car that is mass produced worldwide when you can own something that is produced locally & is part of a brand that you are so loyal or passionate about?

Holden haven't priced this car because of Brocky & Skaife etc, but the past that these people created associated with this badge would help some buyers justify spending that amount of cash on this car. I never stated that Holden themselves have priced the car at this price for that particular reason.

The points that I made aren't arguable in my previous post. Whether you agree with them or not is neither here nor there. As much as you don't want to hear it there ARE people who are willing to pay this price for the 427. There ARE people who would buy this car because of the history. Justified or not.

Holden don't think they are in the same mindframe as Ferrari otherwise they would be charging $300k + for their base model & offer a lot more. They aim towards a completely different market. People buy a Ferrari for the same reason. Access to an exclusive club which they aspire to be part of. Whether it's an $150,000 HSV or $500,000 Ferrari, it doesn't change anything.

People want what they want. You don't get asked why you spent $500,000 on a Ferrari & nor should you have to even justify your answer to anyone but yourself. Same with this HSV or any car. You don't buy a car because of anyone else. You buy a car for your wants and needs. End of story.

You don't like it, don't buy it. Pretty simple You have to remember I'm not arguing the fact I think the car is worth the money, because I don't. I'm trying to provide a view from someone who would possibly be buying it.

[Beer Baron]

So..i should be whooping for joy then because my Sti Fonz will be one of only 8 next year in Australia. Was that a reason to buy the car? Absolutely. Will i bank on it? Not sure yet. But heck, its 1 of 8!! Thats rarer than rocking horse shit.

Please oh please tell me you can detect my sarcasm...

lol, well cop this. my subaru legacy GT is one of one in the country. yeah baby.

and $4K on a handbag? she must be going through tough times. the real shizzle starts at the 1mil jpy mark! hell even don quiote has LV bags in the 1mil-1.5mil range ($10K-$15K for the aussies). can pick some up along with a nice maids outfit and some toothpaste. very convenient.

just accept that most peopel agree $170K is too much coin for this particular commodore. but surely you can see it from someone elses point of view? is it so hard to understand that holden may be someones favourite marque? and that since they have a decent amount of dough to them the price seems bareable? you really need to get over here and drive an R8 or a GTS for a few days, they are great cars in their own right and that is why they have such wide appeal. remeber the great rap the monaro's got from the top gear and 5th gear guys? remember how well they sell in various arab states?

anyway, bottom line I agree, I would not pay $170K for one, but the other upper shelf models that sit around the $90-$100K mark I think are actually pretty good value and good competitors to the euros in that price bracket. often with better equipment and nearly always equal or better powa!

[ausgtr]

Jokes aside, think about this. How and when did Holden come up with the thought that they could charge this amount of money for a car based on the assumptions that Aussies will gobble it up because of Brockie, Skafie, the Mountain and grunt?

Thats pretty f**kin arrogant if you ask me.

Holden had a Monaro concept at a Motor show a couple of years ago that used the Corvette C6R engine and lot's of other race goodies and said it would cost around $250 000, they were taking deposits left, right and center and stopped at 50 but then can canceled the program.

That is where they knew they had a market for this car, I bet they could even sell it for over $200 000 and still sell them all.

Edited June 5, 2008 by ausgtr

[m3gtr]

Outrageous.

Its like telling people shit on a stick is the hottest thing and we are limited to 200 sticks so come get some.

[bozodos]

well I thought i'd go against the flow in this whole issue, assuming I had 170k, I'd personally be keeping in mind the ongoing costs of any car with that pricetag in the end!

M3GTR when I mentioned the technological improvements, I was using that in the context of the Australian domestic car scene, yes I am well aware that on a global scale none of this is new, but I was thinking of this from a commodore driver's mindset! Like what was mentioned earlier in the thread, IRS wasn't commonly available until the VP series, twin piston brakes in the VT etc.

As for 'a place in oz' where one could drive in an aggressive manner, I can think of plenty, that however is another separate discussion in itself I think.

I'm over the whole going fast in straight lines / burnouts (well participating in rather than spectating) type of scene, it was a major part of my decision to buy a 4 wheel drive Skyline!

You're completely right about sheer power outputs only being worth bragging at the local about - there's several high powered XR6 turbo and LS1 twin turbo / supercharged utes locally for example with impressive dyno readings, but unable to be driven to their limits because of the fact they are utes, makes me think what a waste of time really.

It sounds like you're still mindboggled at people willing to part with $170 000 for a Commodore though, might i suggest you ask around Street Commodores or likeminded Holden forum for some more extended answers? (be prepared for relentless trolling by 15 year old keyboard warriors though!)

[Merli]

So BMW dressing up a 3 series is perfectly fine but if HSV dress up a Holden? What is the price difference between the TT 330ci and the M3?

And no way you can put your kids and ski gear in an M3 and go away for the weekend. Or take off on long touring drives with the kids in an M3.

Mate, I love you and all..... but if you think an M3 is a "dressed up 3 series", you have no f**king clue about BMWs The number of common parts between the cars could be counted on one hand (exaggeration, but you get the idea)

And I have taken many long road trips (Sydney -> Byron and back (10 hours each way), multiple drives to Thredbo/Perisher (6 hours each way)) in my 330Ci and M3, with the skis in the car (or on top in a thule) and people in the rear.

Additionally, I know that you've NEVER been in the back of an 3-series/M3, because if you had, you'd know just how comfortable the rear seats in a 3-series/M3 were

[m3gtr]

well I thought i'd go against the flow in this whole issue, assuming I had 170k, I'd personally be keeping in mind the ongoing costs of any car with that pricetag in the end!

M3GTR when I mentioned the technological improvements, I was using that in the context of the Australian domestic car scene, yes I am well aware that on a global scale none of this is new, but I was thinking of this from a commodore driver's mindset! Like what was mentioned earlier in the thread, IRS wasn't commonly available until the VP series, twin piston brakes in the VT etc.

As for 'a place in oz' where one could drive in an aggressive manner, I can think of plenty, that however is another separate discussion in itself I think.

I'm over the whole going fast in straight lines / burnouts (well participating in rather than spectating) type of scene, it was a major part of my decision to buy a 4 wheel drive Skyline!

You're completely right about sheer power outputs only being worth bragging at the local about - there's several high powered XR6 turbo and LS1 twin turbo / supercharged utes locally for example with impressive dyno readings, but unable to be driven to their limits because of the fact they are utes, makes me think what a waste of time really.

It sounds like you're still mindboggled at people willing to part with $170 000 for a Commodore though, might i suggest you ask around Street Commodores or likeminded Holden forum for some more extended answers? (be prepared for relentless trolling by 15 year old keyboard warriors though!)

Well, Bozza, youre about one of the only guys in this thread that has remained impartial despite my insistence and hats off to ya for it bro.

I dont feel like i need to check out other forums for this type of discussion- its being pretty well discussed here and openly so no..i dont feel the need to face up against 15 year old board surfers looking to sprout their first pube,...

Im not going to budge though. It comes down to price, brand value, and bang for your buck and in all complete honesty, this 170k taxi just does not and will not come up with the goods, no matter how hard i try to tell myself you have a point when you say that people pay this amount for the aforementioned reasons.

I know youre right and you know it too - on those levels but i cant see past the other facts on this motorcar.

I hate the pursuit of and chase for certain things. Take KW's and HP for example. Pure numbers and in many cases as you know, overrated, a money pit and amounting to all but nothing except a hardon under the table at a beer night with the blokes.

Even then most know thats talk for tossers and it will aways be. I know im digressing...but i could ramble on and on about my car and at the end of the day it amounts to jack shit. Who really cares about how much power your car has.

Its so overrated.

I say that anyone who spends this type of cash on a commodore has to have rocks in their heads. And to think, you can spend the same amount on a GTR and you will be way better off. I dont get it...so there are those that will say this and that, blah and blah but geez, the holden doesnt have the right badge, isnt going to set the "WORLD" alight like the GTR has and will amount to much except for within OZ- heck of a lot of money to pay for a domestic car with no global exposure or accolades! . Think locally, act globally they say...not Holden - its all local. And anyway, wasnt the VE recalled nationwide because of a serious design flaw?

lol, again, it makes no sense.

Better still, pour the damned money into a house before you buy this holden. Thats half your damned mortgage gone before you even start!

Nah...feck that.

Just buy the GTR. The thing is, The skyline is not even my favorite car nor is Nissan my favourite manufacturer...

[m3gtr]

Mate, I love you and all..... but if you think an M3 is a "dressed up 3 series", you have no f**king clue about BMWs The number of common parts between the cars could be counted on one hand (exaggeration, but you get the idea)

And I have taken many long road trips (Sydney -> Byron and back (10 hours each way), multiple drives to Thredbo/Perisher (6 hours each way)) in my 330Ci and M3, with the skis in the car (or on top in a thule) and people in the rear.

Additionally, I know that you've NEVER been in the back of an 3-series/M3, because if you had, you'd know just how comfortable the rear seats in a 3-series/M3 were

Wel, Merli we may have disagreed severely on my choice in car in a different thread but here i know you are right and i speak from experience.

Roy, to echo this... To say an M3 shares common DNA with the cooking 3 series is to have it back to front. Other way around.

You can admit the M3 is one of the most revered cars on the planet - this is on a GLOBAL scale - and for damned good reason. BMW won awards for some of the best engines in the world AGAIN for the 3rd year running.

"BMW has again dominated the International Engine of the Year Awards, with its new 3.0 liter inline-six twin-turbo engine from the 335i and 5.0 liter V10 from the M5 and M6 winning top praise. BMW dominated more than half of the awards.

The results:

Best engine

BMW 3.0L Twin-turbo (335i)

Best performance engine

BMW 5.0L V10 (M5, M6)

Best fuel economy

Toyota 1.5L Hybrid Synergy drive (Prius)

Under 1.0 liter

Toyota 1.0L (Yaris)

1.0 to 1.4 liters

Volkswagen 1.4L TSI (Golf, Jetta)

1.4 to 1.8 liters

BMW-PSA 1.6LTurbo (Mini)

1.8 to 2.0 liters

Volkswagen 2.0L Turbo (Golf, Audi A3, Audi A6)

2.0 to 2.5 liters

BMW 2.5L (325i, 525i, X3, Z4)

2.5 to 3.0 liters

BMW 3L Twin-Turbo (335i)

3.0 to 4.0 liters

Porsche 3.6L Turbo (996 Turbo)

More than 4.0 liters

BMW 5.0L V10 (M5, M6)

...

And that is before we even get to anything else/

I would gladly hand over 170-k for a state of the art BMW M series and KNOW without doubt the best engineering the world has gone into it.

[Shaolin242]

just to let you know some real first hand experience on the new M cars (m5, m6 actually) - they are having SEVERE reliability problems.

A new M5 here is 400,000Dhs = 115K AUD

with 20,000km and less than 2 years old they are on sale for 270,000Dhs = 78K AUD

The reason is ppl are having mass reliability problems with the M cars being left on Power Mode all the time (507HP rather than 400HP). The M5/6s are being sold so readily 2nd hand here as they are a mass of problems and ppl cant be arsed dealing with them anymore. There are a lot more m cars here then either japan or Oz so we see first hand how many of them are back in the shop with serious problems. Most new series BMWs have a LOT of electrical/ECU problems - teh M cars have these and the engine problems too (again, this is from personal ownership experience and knowledge, not from what ive read or internet)

although the BMWs ARE winning "best engine of the year award" - the problem is these Awards dont cover what happens 10,000km later...

i just think its a little presumptuous to call it "the best engineering in the world" when there are so many reliability problems...

btw ppl complaining about the weight of the 1900Kg Commodores..its only 160KG more than a 2 door GTR ..not much difference really when u put it in context...

[Yidz]

Well, Bozza, youre about one of the only guys in this thread that has remained impartial despite my insistence and hats off to ya for it bro.

I dont feel like i need to check out other forums for this type of discussion- its being pretty well discussed here and openly so no..i dont feel the need to face up against 15 year old board surfers looking to sprout their first pube,...

Im not going to budge though. It comes down to price, brand value, and bang for your buck and in all complete honesty, this 170k taxi just does not and will not come up with the goods, no matter how hard i try to tell myself you have a point when you say that people pay this amount for the aforementioned reasons.

I know youre right and you know it too - on those levels but i cant see past the other facts on this motorcar.

I hate the pursuit of and chase for certain things. Take KW's and HP for example. Pure numbers and in many cases as you know, overrated, a money pit and amounting to all but nothing except a hardon under the table at a beer night with the blokes.

Even then most know thats talk for tossers and it will aways be. I know im digressing...but i could ramble on and on about my car and at the end of the day it amounts to jack shit. Who really cares about how much power your car has.

Its so overrated.

I say that anyone who spends this type of cash on a commodore has to have rocks in their heads. And to think, you can spend the same amount on a GTR and you will be way better off. I dont get it...so there are those that will say this and that, blah and blah but geez, the holden doesnt have the right badge, isnt going to set the "WORLD" alight like the GTR has and will amount to much except for within OZ- heck of a lot of money to pay for a domestic car with no global exposure or accolades! . Think locally, act globally they say...not Holden - its all local. And anyway, wasnt the VE recalled nationwide because of a serious design flaw?

lol, again, it makes no sense.

Better still, pour the damned money into a house before you buy this holden. Thats half your damned mortgage gone before you even start!

Nah...feck that.

Just buy the GTR. The thing is, The skyline is not even my favorite car nor is Nissan my favourite manufacturer...

Mate. What you don't seem to understand is that people don't simply buy a car for it's "Bang for its Buck." If they did, then everyone would buy Motor, watch Top Gear, see what car rates as the best overall value for money & everyone would end up with the same car in the same price bracket. People have other alterior motives for buying a car. For the price I paid for my 32, I could have bought a VL Calais with 250rwkw that would run 11s. I've seen people pay up to $10k + for a 1988 Honda CRX non turbo 1.6l. The thought in these people's minds isn't "I want the most all rounded car for $10k, regardless of the car". The thought is "I'll buy what I want because I want it."

It's the same principle for a $20,000 car. It's the same principle for a $100,000 car and hell, it's the same principle for a $500,000 car.

[POLICE]

All I know is that the only thing special about Holden Special Vehicles is the price

[CHO50N]

Not many people seem to see the most important point here, Holden are not aiming this car at you! They do now expect people who drives skylines etc to buy it. They probably dont even expect people under 40 to buy it.

This car is aimed at older guys who remember the first HSV's, maybe they could not afford one then, maybe they had one then and want another more modern example. By keeping it simple in many ways this vehicle appeals to its target audience. They want a "real" manual. they want the raw feel and most of all they want a Holden.

Sure there may be other cars out there, even better cars but they may not have the same appeal to the people that will buy the 427 HSV. Most probably the buyer might already have a M3, porsche etc etc.

Really dont think you are seeing the point of the car. It is going to be a collectors car for the enthusiast.

Edited June 6, 2008 by CHO50N

[nachoman]

lol 170k for a holden ? when you could have

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/FERRAR...csn5765666.aspx

or

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/PORSCH...csn5263747.aspx

need a family car ? no worries

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/BMW/M5...csn5625269.aspx

or

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/MERCED...csn5752524.aspx

maybe a wagon to cart the kids , dog and footy boots around

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/AUDI/R...csn1890045.aspx

[m3gtr]

That RS4 would absolutely crap on the Holden in ever aspect...

Id take the RS4 in a heartbeat.

[Roy]

Additionally, I know that you've NEVER been in the back of an 3-series/M3, because if you had, you'd know just how comfortable the rear seats in a 3-series/M3 were

WRONG! LOL, they are far better then any Nissan Coupe etc, but have been in a long trip in a 3.2L 6 spd E36 M3, a 330CI (not the TT, around a 2004 model) and a convertible with the roof up because it was faking cold. A lot of my mates have BMWs, and one of my trips to Central Resport Skiing (yes plebs and pissheads go there but) and that was in an E36 318IS coupe. I know plenty about BMWs. Most of my closest friends own them, several race them and they forever tell me how good they are. You cant help but pick up things about them when all your mates are banker wankers

For a bloke my size as often the often the token passenger in the back (drinkers out back, chicks up front ) i would much rather my mates have M5s or 4 doors A friend who has an M3 his dad has a supercharhed 535, that has pace and space.

SO, i have most certainly been in the backs of too many. Perhaps you are right and smaller frame adults or kids woudl not have so much trouble. But i still think an RS4 or E63 would be the go for the family guy

And yes the latest M3 is no normal 3 series, but it is a dressed up 3 series. Just as the RS4 is A4, the E63 a basic E series etc etc. They are far , far , far more developed then a HSV over Holden. But i was making a point. They are a derivative of a massed produced model

Its all about what "individuals" want from a car. I would never own a Ferrari etc, i just dont like the flash and wank associated with them. Sure nice cars but not for me. Porsch maybe, TVR and Lotus. YES! Would never contemplate a new R35. But to others its a dream car. Cars mean different things to different ppl and want different things from their cars. If an Executive wants a big hp HSV as it doesnt have the "Bobby Beemer" tag etc then fair enough. I love M3s but couldnt personally own one. I beliee Audis are more me. To others a limited run HSV is more them,

I cant see why some ppl are getting so upset about it. It comes down to demographic. Some ppl think they are defined by the car they drive and they are too good for a Holden. Others dont associate so much with a badge and like the local bang and flabour they deliver. I have to say, the local product are pretty involving, fin things to drive. Maybe not refined or sophisticated, but damn fun. To some that are not so concerned about badges that holds enough value.

Heaven forbid there are those that think HSV is a brand name worthy of the money, the more they win on the track, perhaps the more merit that pride has? But i know as a young punk i wanted an SV5000

[Merli]

And yes the latest M3 is no normal 3 series, but it is a dressed up 3 series.

I really have no idea how you can say this.

"dressed up 3 series" implies that you think that most of the changes are cosmetic, and constitute body panel changes to make it look "dressed up".

All of your wanker banker friends (bankers don't drive E36s ) should have educated you better. I can't remember the exact number, but I believe out of the hundreds of thousands of parts on an E46 M3, it shares something in the vicinity of ~150 common parts with the E46 3-Series. Most of the common parts being benign dash fascia plastics, air-conditioning system components, doors, boot-lid and windows... The rest of the hundreds of thousands of parts have been subjected to mechanical upgrades and design changes for the better.

Nearly EVERY SINGLE component inside the engine is different, not to mention clutch(es), gearbox, LSD diff, suspension upgrades and geometry changes, etc etc.

Of course it is still based on the 3-Series platform, as is pretty much every other "sports division" non-exotic car. But to say it is a "dressed up 3-Series" makes my mind boggle

And I didn't say that other cars (your examples of E63 AMG and RS4) wouldn't be more comfortable. Of course they would. I was addressing your quote of:

And no way you can put your kids and ski gear in an M3 and go away for the weekend. Or take off on long touring drives with the kids in an M3.

WRONG. Yes you CAN put your kids and ski gear in an M3 with absolutely no problems and take long comfortable drives in it as well

[ras1983]

Hey, ease off the banker wanker jokes; some of us want to be banker wankers in the future and we'd like a little respect; lol.

p.s. i won't be driving an m3 if and when i'm a banker wanker; you'll hopefully see me driving an ariel atom 300 (if you don't blink and miss it of course, he he)

Edited June 7, 2008 by ras1983

[bozodos]

well looks like this thread has well and truly gone off the rails, don't really think that there's anything more constructive I can say!