People that say "I've got not traction"

[slip]

or similar.

Fair enough if youve got too much neg camber at the back, or crap tyres, but I hear this too often from people with not particularly powerful cars (still with stock turbo) and no apparent rear end issues.

Rubbish, youve got traction. What you haven't got is throttle control. Dry road...lots of traction, hell even a wet road (good surface) isnt too bad. Just because you cant hammer off the line or out of a corner in a lower gear with your foot buried, does not mean theres a lack of traction.

Ride a motorbike, and you will have an appreciation of this.

Picture a steep uphill, predominantly clay, with a bit of grass rocks and logs, in the rain. Now you have to use a 135 or so section rear tyre to punt yourself up it. Yep, theres f*ck all traction available. (extreme example)

Take Revhead coming out of a corner on his stock roadbike, in the dry, and trying to do it fast. He's going to be using all his concentration, and as precise as possible throttle control to do it. Will he complain? Nope. He will marvel at his bikes power and how hard it is to put it all down through a tiny contact patch without sending himself over the bars. For most riders, lighting up that rear tyre while leant over is an almost instant crash sentence.

What I'm trying to say is that its not a lack of traction, its a lack of throttle control. And if we have better throttle control then we are better, faster, and safer; drifters, grip drivers, and drag racers.

this isnt an attack on anyone, just something that i think needs to be said. in a car you can easily catch a slide, but on a bike, its very different.

[25GTT]

Well i kinda agree with what your saying, however is it fair for me to say that whilst going around a corner it's not just (please not i have said "it''s not JUST") tyre grip that matters to stop you for sliding out, lower centre of gravity, harder suspension are factors in stopping you from losing traction?

As far as going in straight line, i have standard turbo.... and... I HAVE NO TRACTION! i have 240HP at wheels and my 1st gear just rips my tyres to shred, you are right in saying that it all matters about control and I admit I aint that best take off expert ever created but until i figure out my exact throttle control I HAVE NO TRACTION.

I think also when the lag goes and turbo kicks in that is hard to get it right coz just when you think you have the perfect take off along comes Mr turbo and nooo traction .....

I do kinda agree with what you saying slip it is a matter of traction control but in learning that control it is hard to get grip :-)

[slip]

Something i forgot, and probably what a big problem for you is, is SELF control. Holding yourself back and slowly feeding the throttle on through 1st is something that is very hard to make yourself do. Just for an example, ive got an open diff, and on the skidpan (bugger all traction) i put down the fastest time, quicker than all the lsd cars. self control to have throttle control

[Jay95R33]

Recently going from $93 almost bald tyres on the back to brand new $200 tyres I can honestly say that it didn't matter how controlled I was at applying the throttle, there is no way that the old tyres could get me to 100km/h as fast as the new ones.

Not trying to flame anyone here - but I know I had traction problems with the old tyres.

But your right, throttle control with high power cars (or bikes )makes a load of difference.

[ex-static]

I can launch ok with slight loss of traction, and slight throttle control, but like 25GTT said, when I hit boost I lose traction, and Ive got 255s on the ass, with a good deal of tread.. of course this only happens in 1st and second.., Id love to learn how to launch without losing traction.

[whatsisname]

I've got no problem with what you're saying here slip. I think it's a case of trying too hard to get ALL the available power to the ground using WOT, & then wondering why there's no grip?!?

I've had my rear suspension set-up to maximize available grip with my current 255 Falken’s (-0.8 camber) There’s plenty of tread, but not much grip. I’ve still got more to do in the rear sus' department yet!

I prefer to run 30+psi in the rears for all round driving rather than drop the pressure for launching.

With my car set up this way I can't get ALL the available power to the ground, it’s just a case of feathering the throttle. I can't wait till I can spare a few $$$ for a full set of top quality, high grip rubber.

The power delivery of some turbos can make it even harder to balance maximum power & grip!

[john]

With ***t rubber you can have throttle control but still loose grip in the wet on some sections of road - this is if your are driving your skyline like a skyline. i just spent $500 on 2 new performance tryes for the back and using the same throttle control i have not slipped once. due to the unpredictability of roads in wet you may have throttle control(you would kill yourself in a week if you didnt) but a big difference in not slipping in unpredictable situations is rubber

[HUSTLR]

I always have traction problems in the wet- bloody 18's- I think i need 20's on :confused: :confused:

[dAVE]

hmm.. interesting rant slip. You at work?? But yes its very true. Too often hear people in 1.6litre cars saying they lost a race etc cos they didnt have traction..

hell, i used to say it about my surf! If i went around a roundabout to quick (if i was in a hurry for work ) it would go fully sideways and was always a challenge to hold on to it. I just blamed my tires, but one day i checked the pressure.. and decided to pump them up from their 17psi to the reccomened 32 psi. Now I cant drift in it anymore.

[Merli]

I hear what you're saying, but you explain the problem yourself...

When people complain that they don't have traction, they usually mean that they can't go WOT without losing grip.

Sure, you can modulate the throttle, and you won't break traction, but then you're not using all your power...

So effectively if you've got a 180rwkw car, but have to feather the throttle in order to keep traction, YOU HAVE TRACTION PROBLEMS. Your solution to the traction problem is to use only 150rwkw of that power, which quite frankly is a crap method of dealing with your lack of grip.

Go and put 265 Dunlop D01Js on the rear, and you'll be able to put maybe 170rwkw of that power down... Doesn't that mean then that you had traction problems when you could only put 150rwkw of power down?

Yes.... Yes it does.

[slip]

Hey, if you've got traction problems, you've got em. As I did state first up with rear end issues, that includes rear tyres.

But basically, you can't change physics. There's a certain amount of friction between your tyres and the road at any given time, and you control how much power gets to them. If you give more power than there is friction available - they spin.

Merli: with this 'only being able to put a certain % of your total peak hp down' stuff. i must point out that unless you are at the exact point of peak power in your rev range and trying to use full throttle, what you said doesn't apply. You accelerate through a rev range, and YOU choose how much goes to the rear bags. Unless you are at your peak power point, at FULL throttle, you're not trying to put down 180rwkw (which i do not feel is a big deal btw)

We've got guys in this club that have bikes with about 130rwhp, and they put it down through a contact patch the size of your foot. This sort of talk i've never come across in the bike scene, it was more like "crikey its powerful, spins the rear at part throttle in second!"

You choose how much throttle you apply, and thats that. If you give too much and spin up, thats your choice, you did it, dont complain.

(very glad this has remained civil )

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

Heres a senerio for you. Guy has a hilux ute 1991 model, with a soarer twin turbo six shoved under the bonnet. However the 2 turbo's replaced by one big one controlable ecu big front mount, and an external wastegate that allows no less than 10psi. He has done his best by putting the fattest tyres he can on the back even went down rim sizes to get a bigger sidewalled tyre. Yet with partial throttle when that big turbo hit boost its all over. Wouldnt you say slip that this guy just cant get traction, totally his own fault shouldnt have put it in a hilux ute but i believe there are incidences where your car is just to powerfull for daily road conditions due to the fact you cant get traction. Although i agree with the generall sentiment i hate these tools in silvia's for instance that have bald tyres go into a corner get on the gas before the apex then say its to powerfull winde back the boost i cant get traction!! Good luck to you all in your search for the perfect balance :burnout:

[Merli]

Originally posted by slip

Merli: with this 'only being able to put a certain % of your total peak hp down' stuff.  i must point out that unless you are at the exact point of peak power in your rev range and trying to use full throttle, what you said doesn't apply.  You accelerate through a rev range, and YOU choose how much goes to the rear bags.  Unless you are at your peak power point, at FULL throttle, you're not trying to put down 180rwkw (which i do not feel is a big deal btw)

Firstly. I chose 180rwkw as an arbitrary figure, because that is the accepted maximum the standard turbo will support, which is what you were referring to in your first post. I agree that it really isn't that much.

My argument still stands completely even if you're not talking about peak power. Say you make 180rwkw peak... at 5000rpm, you might make 140rwkw (another arbitrary figure), but if you floored it at 5000rpm, you will break traction. Your solution of backing off throttle will effectively only use 100rwkw of that power...

It doesn't matter whether we're talking about peak power or low range power. The fact of the matter is, if you have to back off power at *ANY* point in your rev range in order to save breaking the rear end loose, you have traction problems.

It may be because of crap tyres, too firm suspension or any other host of problems. The fact of the matter is if you can't put down 100% throttle, 100% of the time, you have traction problems.

[kabab]

WIDE TIRES DO NOT = STRAIGHT LINE TRACTION

A 16x225x60 tire with a soft compound at low psi will give you better traction then a 17x40x295 tire.

Wide tires with low profile are good for horizontal grip not vertical !

[whatsisname]

Yep, I agree with Merli (kind of what I was getting at in my first post).

One other small detail, it's not so much the power (rwkw) but torque that's likely to do the tyre spinning!

In order to accelerate from point A to point B (i.e. 400m 1/4) as fast as possible we would want 100% of the “available power” being put to the ground throughout the rev' range, yes? Therefore if we have to use throttle control to maintain traction we aren't using ALL the available power, & we wont cover point A to B as fast as we "could".

I too have seen/heard people with very mild powered cars complain of traction issues. One example that springs to mind was a guy with a Z32 TT, he was all over the road with the rear lighting up every time he nailed it! I thought,“**** he’s got some grunt! Upon closer inspection it was very standard & had 225 crap rear rubber that was both bald & hard as a rock!

[diduc]

agree with you matt,

thats why big cube engines are much easy to launch except for the GEN III in commodores which loves to rev.

e.g turbo cars

supra 451nm@3200rpm

r33 gtr 368nm@4400rpm

as for the z32, short wheelbase plus 388nm = loss of traction and control.

hey matt, my dyno graph reads 430nm, is that at the wheel?

[Bozz]

I do genuinely have traction issues though

I have an almost stock standard R31 Skyline with an engine that has around double the power of the original 3 litre.

In first gear, if you floor it at 30km/h it instantly frys both rear tyres to 65km/h on most surfaces in the dry. People that saw me on that Melbourne cruise a couple of months back can verify that

Having 225/50/16's on the back improves things for 2 reasons - The rolling diameter is greater therefore less torque is transmitted from the engine to the contact patch between the tyre and road. Secondly, the contact patch is bigger.

My gripe is when I lose a drag race to the considerably more powerful and heavier 300KW VX LS1 Holden Commodore. I am on the edge of breaking traction but the Commodore has ****eloads of grip and simply out accelerates me. From a rolling start in second from 70km/h (to Victoria's limit of 110km/h out of the city besides thats when the rev limiter hits in second gear) we are pretty much even.

Some cars do have insufficient traction..... My old R32 had heaps when I pulled the 4WD fuse out to make it RWD...

[whatsisname]

Originally posted by diduc

hey matt, my dyno graph reads 430nm, is that at the wheel?

Yeah mate the 430nm is @ the wheels, but that figure doesn't really mean anything when compared to flywheel torque. It doesn't work the same as a rwkw to flykw.

[diduc]

thanks..

[slip]

bozz ya nut, what do you expect when you give it the herbs, in 1st, when the engine will be strong. Maybe use a higher gear when you are going to do the roll on, you can use more throttle with less risk of spinning the rears.

merli : i dont think you have traction problems in your example. you may not be able to go full stick 100% of the time, but this is not a perfect fairytale world where the road and your treads are magic. You choose your tyres, and you can change your rear end setup if you like, to have the most available friction but after that its up to you. thats it. you cant change reality. think about big power skylines over in japan. they have NO chance of getting their grunt to the ground without precise throttle control. only way to do it is to have gears as rear wheels and ribbed metal roads, 100% traction, whatever throttle opening. bit silly though.

the hilux, that thing would be sick fun. there are of course instances like that which are rare.

Bottom line is, in MOST instances, its a SKILL thing.