The Goods On Oils

[Trex101]

What's considered "warm" BB?

GTR service manual says 5000kms, but does not specify climate. Thats for oil available 16 years ago. The oils now are far superior. Some say that oil is the most technologically advanced part of the engine.

IMO if you're spending $20+ per litre on oil, it would be well worth getting a used oil analysis (UOA) done rather than aribitarily changing at 2500kms. You might be throwing out good (and expensive) oil unecessarily. The UOA can also provide info on engine condition etc. I *think* there was a group buy for UOAs - $40.

FWIW I know of someone who used to do regular UOAs on his Porsche 928S4 and the oil was still recommended for use after 20,000kms, which is twice the recommended drain interval. A low stressed motor with large oil capacity, but the oil was only a relatively inexpensive Shell Helix.

Rgs,

Kot

I second that. In fact most oil could have make it till 10k easily. Do a UOA on your expensive oil and make it work it's worth. Pls see link below. This is the type of expectation you would have expect from a top of the range oil.

Redline with 10k km OCI

[khunjeng]

Ok, since you asked. Here are 2 link which talk more in depth into group I to V base stocks.

Base stock

Base stock 2

thanks mate...havn't read it all yet but looks the goods....goes with my long list of other oil related links...ta dood.

Also UOA equipment...whats the deal and where to get it??

Edited June 20, 2006 by khunjeng

[siksII]

i'll stick to the Delvac, which is costing me $15/lt.

Hey mate i think you are paying too much for that oil, as i called a place (listed in a post on the last thread) which sells packs of three 5L bottles for approx $177 incl gst, works out at $11.80 per litre.

they are called fueldirect in homebush, sydney, 1300781982.

[khunjeng]

i had a quick look at the specs for the penrite 5 oil

http://www.penrite.com.au/files/WKRXR86PLF...E%20OIL%205.pdf

i dont understand all the figures but from what it looks to me like its way to thick when cold and maybe also a bit too much when warm. (although not doubting its outright protection capabilty in terms of sheer etc.)

wouldnt this result in high wear on cold starts?

can someone explain?

just looked at he specs...nothing outstanding...also some key specs missing - no suprise really. Type VI POA base stock comes seconds to a POE (ester) base stock. as stated by trex....POE has better HTHS...flash point etc...also helps clean out all the sludge much better.

btw 5W-50...way to thick for daily driving...look at is cold start cSt ratings....OMFG...at least go for a 10w30/40.

[siksII]

just looked at he specs...nothing outstanding...also some key specs missing - no suprise really. Type VI POA base stock comes seconds to a POE (ester) base stock. as stated by trex....POE has better HTHS...flash point etc...also helps clean out all the sludge much better.

btw 5W-50...way to thick for daily driving...look at is cold start cSt ratings....OMFG...at least go for a 10w30/40.

its actually a 5w-60 (not sure if u made a typo or read it wrong!)

but yeah looking at the viscosity ratings thats what i thought.... wouldnt using this cause more damage than harm due to the cold viscosity? (also noticed missing stuff...)

[Trex101]

its actually a 5w-60 (not sure if u made a typo or read it wrong!)

but yeah looking at the viscosity ratings thats what i thought.... wouldnt using this cause more damage than harm due to the cold viscosity? (also noticed missing stuff...)

Yah, i wouldn't used it on my ride man... Too thick for my liking.

khunjeng, i'm using wearcheck from USA, cheap and good. S$30 or A$23 per shot

[AzzurrA]

Hi guys....

what would you recommend for my little RB20DET which has done 205,000km? (well, thats what's showing on the odometer, not sure if the engine has been changed in the past though)

i'm currently using Motul Turbolight 10w40, but i've got an oil change due very shortly, so might change to something a bit better. At present, it doesn't blow any oil smoke, or use any oil or anything (oil level doesn't move in the 5000km service intervals that i have)

The car is used mainly to drive to work, with a workout sometimes, but it does see the occasional track day.

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

Show me a POE that is cheaper than $90 + for 5 litres!!! Oh thats right they don't exist!!!

Yes POA isn't as good but read my post, i said for the price range we have a new winner. 60W isn't to thick on a rb with over 100k on it and thats the common one i get PM'd. Cold start on oil thickness means it will run more pressure, not nessassarily damage bearings etc. People get to carried away with the cold rating, if your strapping your car when its cold then your an idiot anyway, the operational temp is the most important factor don't ever forget this. That being said a 10-40W would seem to be the most suited to the rb series engine, however as mentioned in this post motors with over 100k on them wont have a problem running a 10-50 or 5-60 for that matter.

Azzura- stick with what you have it is working and will continue to if you maintain regular and low service intervals.

[Trex101]

Show me a POE that is cheaper than $90 + for 5 litres!!! Oh thats right they don't exist!!!

Yes POA isn't as good but read my post, i said for the price range we have a new winner. 60W isn't to thick on a rb with over 100k on it and thats the common one i get PM'd. Cold start on oil thickness means it will run more pressure, not nessassarily damage bearings etc. People get to carried away with the cold rating, if your strapping your car when its cold then your an idiot anyway, the operational temp is the most important factor don't ever forget this. That being said a 10-40W would seem to be the most suited to the rb series engine, however as mentioned in this post motors with over 100k on them wont have a problem running a 10-50 or 5-60 for that matter.

Azzura- stick with what you have it is working and will continue to if you maintain regular and low service intervals.

There is a misconception here that thick oil protect better then thin oil while you don't realise that 90% of engine wear is at startup then at operation. A big spread oil like 5w60 will have loads of VII which will break down under load and stress, it's the breakdown of VII that cause most piston sticking/jam.

From the data given (syn oil 5 5w60). Think about it, if your engine 'REALLY' need 24.1cSt (60wt) at operating temp why would you want to pump 157cSt (40'c summer ambient temp) or 6.5 time thicker then required? What happen if it's 5'c winter morning? just imagine how hard your engine is pumping thru when you crank up...

If you insist of using a 60wt oil, why not choose a straight wt synthetic 40wt or 50wt oil? At least you don't have to worry about VII issue.

[khunjeng]

Show me a POE that is cheaper than $90 + for 5 litres!!! Oh thats right they don't exist!!!

Yes POA isn't as good but read my post, i said for the price range we have a new winner. 60W isn't to thick on a rb with over 100k on it and thats the common one i get PM'd. Cold start on oil thickness means it will run more pressure, not nessassarily damage bearings etc. People get to carried away with the cold rating, if your strapping your car when its cold then your an idiot anyway, the operational temp is the most important factor don't ever forget this. That being said a 10-40W would seem to be the most suited to the rb series engine, however as mentioned in this post motors with over 100k on them wont have a problem running a 10-50 or 5-60 for that matter.

Azzura- stick with what you have it is working and will continue to if you maintain regular and low service intervals.

I disagree. Using the specs to determine the quality of an oil is far better than using guess work. There is also a perception that over 100k u need thicker oil...a lot of documentnation suggests that because at op. temp. the viscosity is roughly the same then there is little gain from useing the thicker oil - which was your origional point...and there is a lot to gain from startup wear restrictions and HP gains through lower flow restictions of a 10W-30 for example.

When i comes to cost...ppl complain about an extra $30 on a really good oil..that they only need ot change every 10-15k due to better OCI...for a true comparision u need to factor in the addative package gains say of the redline product for example and its ability to really "clean out the sludge" which has been proven in a numbe rof different makes an models.

lets not even get started on HTHS etc...

[khunjeng]

There is a misconception here that thick oil protect better then thin oil while you don't realise that 90% of engine wear is at startup then at operation. A big spread oil like 5w60 will have loads of VII which will break down under load and stress, it's the breakdown of VII that cause most piston sticking/jam.

From the data given (syn oil 5 5w60). Think about it, if your engine 'REALLY' need 24.1cSt (60wt) at operating temp why would you want to pump 157cSt (40'c summer ambient temp) or 6.5 time thicker then required? What happen if it's 5'c winter morning? just imagine how hard your engine is pumping thru when you crank up...

If you insist of using a 60wt oil, why not choose a straight wt synthetic 40wt or 50wt oil? At least you don't have to worry about VII issue.

lol trex...must have been at the same time...

and this ia good point I missed:

From the data given (syn oil 5 5w60). Think about it, if your engine 'REALLY' need 24.1cSt (60wt) at operating temp why would you want to pump 157cSt (40'c summer ambient temp) or 6.5 time thicker then required? What happen if it's 5'c winter morning? just imagine how hard your engine is pumping thru when you crank up...

Edited June 21, 2006 by khunjeng

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

I am not running my response off guess work, I have actually tested the oils, while our testing procedures are quite rudementary they provide real world and live feedback on how certain oils react. I will have to agree with both of you on the fact that 5-60w is stretching it a bit, and I have found through experince over the years I have never had a problem with a 10-40 in RB series engines regardless of brand this seems to be the optimal weight range for these engines. There are advantages from using slightly thicker oils in older engines as the clearances are stretched out and a thicker oil will help you control oil pressure at op temp and also lubrication qualities- that have been lost due to the ever so small capacity increases in bearing clearances! If you disagree with this why is it when i pull down a rb30 or rb26 or any rb the big ends etc are always past factory specs, will a thicker oil add to this problem or bandaid it??? My ppoint was not that when a motor gets old start using thicker oil, it was that you can get away with it without encountering the problems you might on a new engine and there are the slight advatages that might work that are mentioned above.

In no way do I have the tech knowedge you guys have about oil on a chemical level, so I am not here to argue that one, just simply providing what I have learnt through using oils not just the theory behind their composition, its awesome for readers here to have both real world experience and the theory that way they can make informed desicions!! I remember a post on SDU about 6 years ago when i recomended people start using royal purple and everyone thought I was whacked, how things change when people can provide examples and experience with products!! So not having a go!

As another note khunjeng you say people should spend the extra, then go longer service intervals. I am not a follower of running oils to their specs as what are these specs based, what styles of driving, what engines, what mods to those engines, half the time you can't even get the climate they are suited to etc. Believe it or not oil in a motor car actually cops the harshest treatment from the camshafts, now imagine im reving my engine 2k higher than standard, have bigger cams with longer duration and lift and much increased spring rates and seat pressure. Surely the oil wont last the same as a standard car, or the time that the specs recommend it for?? Plus oil can give you an insight to if something is wrong inside the motor, it cheap insurance to change at max every 5k in a performance car that cops a hiding as you might find something thaat can save you big dollars if you get to it early!! (metal shavings)

Edited June 21, 2006 by Fitzpatrick Speed Works

[khunjeng]

I am not running my response off guess work, I have actually tested the oils, while our testing procedures are quite rudementary they provide real world and live feedback on how certain oils react. I will have to agree with both of you on the fact that 5-60w is stretching it a bit, and I have found through experince over the years I have never had a problem with a 10-40 in RB series engines regardless of brand this seems to be the optimal weight range for these engines. There are advantages from using slightly thicker oils in older engines as the clearances are stretched out and a thicker oil will help you control oil pressure at op temp and also lubrication qualities- that have been lost due to the ever so small capacity increases in bearing clearances! If you disagree with this why is it when i pull down a rb30 or rb26 or any rb the big ends etc are always past factory specs, will a thicker oil add to this problem or bandaid it??? My ppoint was not that when a motor gets old start using thicker oil, it was that you can get away with it without encountering the problems you might on a new engine and there are the slight advatages that might work that are mentioned above.

In no way do I have the tech knowedge you guys have about oil on a chemical level, so I am not here to argue that one, just simply providing what I have learnt through using oils not just the theory behind their composition, its awesome for readers here to have both real world experience and the theory that way they can make informed desicions!! I remember a post on SDU about 6 years ago when i recomended people start using royal purple and everyone thought I was whacked, how things change when people can provide examples and experience with products!! So not having a go!

As another note khunjeng you say people should spend the extra, then go longer service intervals. I am not a follower of running oils to their specs as what are these specs based, what styles of driving, what engines, what mods to those engines, half the time you can't even get the climate they are suited to etc. Believe it or not oil in a motor car actually cops the harshest treatment from the camshafts, now imagine im reving my engine 2k higher than standard, have bigger cams with longer duration and lift and much increased spring rates and seat pressure. Surely the oil wont last the same as a standard car, or the time that the specs recommend it for?? Plus oil can give you an insight to if something is wrong inside the motor, it cheap insurance to change at max every 5k in a performance car that cops a hiding as you might find something thaat can save you big dollars if you get to it early!! (metal shavings)

If thats what you think...you stick to it.

Edited June 21, 2006 by khunjeng

[Busky2k]

I cant be bnothered quoting different paragraphs so here it goes.

-Royal Purple is Group III synthetic. A jip because its almost double the price of other Group III synthetics such as Shell Helix Ultra/Castrol EDGE 5W3.

-Penrite SIN looks good for track cars. For street cars you might as well use honey its that thick. I anticipate that fuel economy would suffer too.

-Street Commodores test is no good. That Timken test is not applicable to how good an oil will perform in an engine. They didn't even heat up the oils to operating temps from what I read. You could put shampoo into a Timken and it would probably do just as good.

-5000km is the minimum OCI most oils can go. Unless your engine runs exceptionally rich, sees often track work etc, then 5,000km is good enough at the very least.

-Motul Turbolight is not a bad oil but for the money you can do better. Eg Castrol EDGE Group III synthetic.

-I buy Delvac 1 for $50 per 5L bottle. Best value for money oil by a long shot and everyone should use it.

[Trex101]

I cant be bnothered quoting different paragraphs so here it goes.

-Royal Purple is Group III synthetic. A jip because its almost double the price of other Group III synthetics such as Shell Helix Ultra/Castrol EDGE 5W3.

-Penrite SIN looks good for track cars. For street cars you might as well use honey its that thick. I anticipate that fuel economy would suffer too.

-Street Commodores test is no good. That Timken test is not applicable to how good an oil will perform in an engine. They didn't even heat up the oils to operating temps from what I read. You could put shampoo into a Timken and it would probably do just as good.

-5000km is the minimum OCI most oils can go. Unless your engine runs exceptionally rich, sees often track work etc, then 5,000km is good enough at the very least.

-Motul Turbolight is not a bad oil but for the money you can do better. Eg Castrol EDGE Group III synthetic.

-I buy Delvac 1 for $50 per 5L bottle. Best value for money oil by a long shot and everyone should use it.

I agreed all the rest of your comment but RP are not group III but a blend of group IV and group II mineral additives carrier oil.

[Busky2k]

Where did you find out its Group IV? IIRC, its Group III for their street oils and is the reason why its hated so much, Group IV for their race oils eg RP 21.

Then again they might have changed their formulation in the last few years, or the speculation was wrong. Hmmm. I'd rather spend the same $$ on Motul 300V or Redline which are proven performers without the questionable hype.

[Trex101]

Where did you find out its Group IV? IIRC, its Group III for their street oils and is the reason why its hated so much, Group IV for their race oils eg RP 21.

Then again they might have changed their formulation in the last few years, or the speculation was wrong. Hmmm. I'd rather spend the same $$ on Motul 300V or Redline which are proven performers without the questionable hype.

That's because i post the same question to RP technical department and the answer is mostly group IV (actual % are proprietary) couple with a small percentage of mineral additives carrier.

[khunjeng]

-I buy Delvac 1 for $50 per 5L bottle. Best value for money oil by a long shot and everyone should use

where do u buy it from? I havn't been able to find it.

[Cubes]

-I buy Delvac 1 for $50 per 5L bottle. Best value for money oil by a long shot and everyone should use it.

Do tell me where.. As you know I'm in Adelaide also.

[Busky2k]

Motrex in Athol Park.

Out here in Whyalla where I work, the Mobil distro sells it for similar price too.