The Goods On Oils

[slidetaker]

I changed oil at 5000km's. The Motul was used in exactly the same style and km's of driving.

At first I didn't believe it so I repeated the test with the shell and again sludge in the oil filter.

Very interesting test. Basically, Shell sludge, Motul no sludge, Shell sludge.

Just a couple of question to clarify the test.

1. Have you noticed any sludge or vanish inside the engine before the test?

2. I assumed same type of filter throughout the test?

3. Did Shell consume more oil than Motul?

It really is rare that there is any sludgeing with a full syn oil doing 5000km. Logically, I think that what might happen could be that Shell actually was cleaning the engine better than Motul. The sludge that was trapped by the filter, was not resulted from burnt Shell but existing dirt from the engine. Helix Ultra could actually be dissolving the minor deposits built-ups.

Nevertheless, it would be good to do the test again now that you have done a few consecutive Motul. Also, Helix Ultra just recently got SM rated. If that means anything to you.

[slidetaker]

I did read this, and other post's on this topic.

This is my situation, i have a standerd rebuilt s1 rb25 (5000km old) Just did a track day. temp at track gets about 105 atm (will be sorting this out soon). sprited driving in the hills see about 90-95.

In example 2 of the above quote, it talks about oil thinning at higher themps...... i dont quite understand what im needing to use at these temps.

First of all, 90C and 105C is not that hot for racing. Most oil operating temperature are designed at 100C. Oil goes thinner when hotter, so it flows faster to bring away the heat. This is what I understand.

You just had a standard rebuilt, OEM oil spec for Skyline called for 7.5W30, it is not a problem to go to a 40 weight on track. Viscosity between the 30 and 40 are closed if the temp goes to above 105C.

I am sure you will have no problem with a Redline or 300V 40wt on track just as so many other people had done.

As for pressure on idle and through the rpm, other people here should be able to give you some numbers.

[Cubes]

Very interesting test. Basically, Shell sludge, Motul no sludge, Shell sludge.

Just a couple of question to clarify the test.

1. Have you noticed any sludge or vanish inside the engine before the test?

2. I assumed same type of filter throughout the test?

3. Did Shell consume more oil than Motul?

It really is rare that there is any sludgeing with a full syn oil doing 5000km. Logically, I think that what might happen could be that Shell actually was cleaning the engine better than Motul. The sludge that was trapped by the filter, was not resulted from burnt Shell but existing dirt from the engine. Helix Ultra could actually be dissolving the minor deposits built-ups.

Nevertheless, it would be good to do the test again now that you have done a few consecutive Motul. Also, Helix Ultra just recently got SM rated. If that means anything to you.

1 - The motor was built 90,000km's ago using motul and having the head off at around 70,000km's and then cams out just recently both times the head is a superclean shiny alloy look. No discolouration/browning anywhere.

The Shell stuff also made the lifters tick as it approached 5000km's mainly when warm. Dropped the Motul in and it never ticks.

2 - The same type of oil filter - K&N

3 - Definitely.. The shell used around 300-400mls over 5000km's where as the Motul doesn't use a drop well not noticeably anyway.

[1SLP80]

First of all, 90C and 105C is not that hot for racing. Most oil operating temperature are designed at 100C. Oil goes thinner when hotter, so it flows faster to bring away the heat. This is what I understand.

You just had a standard rebuilt, OEM oil spec for Skyline called for 7.5W30, it is not a problem to go to a 40 weight on track. Viscosity between the 30 and 40 are closed if the temp goes to above 105C.

I am sure you will have no problem with a Redline or 300V 40wt on track just as so many other people had done.

As for pressure on idle and through the rpm, other people here should be able to give you some numbers.

All good with the pressure now, but still not sure on what oil. The 90*c and 105*c is my water temp, i dont have a oil temp gauge, so i have no idea how hot the oil was.

[slidetaker]

1 - The motor was built 90,000km's ago using motul and having the head off at around 70,000km's and then cams out just recently both times the head is a superclean shiny alloy look. No discolouration/browning anywhere.

The Shell stuff also made the lifters tick as it approached 5000km's mainly when warm. Dropped the Motul in and it never ticks.

3 - Definitely.. The shell used around 300-400mls over 5000km's where as the Motul doesn't use a drop well not noticeably anyway.

In this case, pretty sure is the Shell then, quite disappointed. Probably some small proportion of Group III not holding up. To have 350ml over 5000km is not good.

Have you tried Mobil or Castrol products? Any feedback?

[Cubes]

Mobil 5w50 without sludge or consumption.

Castrol 10w60 without sludge or consumption

Castrol 5w30 many years ago unsure if there was sludge but it did have a fair bit of a consumption.

[R34GT-T]

Only 'Synforce Oils" in my cars. Not only do you get asked what sort of car you have but also how many K's and what part of aus you live in. They only prescibe an oil that will suit your needs in all these catergories. oh and outside sources say you get kw gains by using it. just google it "synforce"

[Rolls]

In an old redtop rb20 my motor drank about 500ml of shell 5w30 over 5000km, it also developed a few leaks. The consumption and leaks went away when I went to 5w40 motul 8100

Only 'Synforce Oils" in my cars. Not only do you get asked what sort of car you have but also how many K's and what part of aus you live in. They only prescibe an oil that will suit your needs in all these catergories. oh and outside sources say you get kw gains by using it. just google it "synforce"

Synforce oils are only a semi synthetic, sounds like their marketing worked well on you I highly doubt it is any better then your castrol semi synthetics and Ihighly doubt it is better then the motul, mobil 1, and redline fully synthetic products. Have a read on their website.

http://www.synforce.com.au/synthetics.html

What product of theirs are you using and how much is it ?

Edited July 27, 2008 by Rolls

[Rolls]

whoops

Edited July 27, 2008 by Rolls

[1SLP80]

I did read this, and other post's on this topic.

This is my situation, i have a standerd rebuilt s1 rb25 (5000km old) Just did a track day. temp at track gets about 105 atm (will be sorting this out soon). sprited driving in the hills see about 90-95.

In example 2 of the above quote, it talks about oil thinning at higher themps...... i dont quite understand what im needing to use at these temps

My mate, with a 25, not rebuilt is using a full mineral oil, "HPR ?/20 or ?/30". He also recomended "penrtie sin"

does this sound good?

any imput would be good, and also referance the ? too- 5w/20?

[Rolls]

My mate, with a 25, not rebuilt is using a full mineral oil, "HPR ?/20 or ?/30". He also recomended "penrtie sin"

does this sound good?

any imput would be good, and also referance the ? too- 5w/20?

Read the thread.

[some_cs_student]

Read the thread.

Read the first page summary of the thread, then READ the thread (twice if required) and then post questions

[1SLP80]

Read the thread.

Read the first page summary of the thread, then READ the thread (twice) and then post questions

Not being smart chaps, but i have read this thread......a few times. I dont understand the principals, as i said on the previous page. This is my main problem.

[1SLP80]

Acctually, never mind.

Ill chuck 8100 in and hope for the best. Lots of people seem to be running it so i'll be a sheep i supose. No idea if its right for My needs, but seing as nobody will take 2 mins to explain the principals behind choosing my oil (as i dont understand the examples on the 1st page) i'll retain my ignorance and be none the wiser.

Edited July 28, 2008 by 1SLP80

[some_cs_student]

Acctually, never mind.

Ill chuck 8100 in and hope for the best. Lots of people seem to be running it so i'll be a sheep i supose. No idea if its right for My needs, but seing as nobody will take 2 mins to explain the principals behind choosing my oil (as i dont understand the examples on the 1st page) i'll retain my ignorance and be none the wiser.

You could have stated that you couldn't understand the first page, otherwise people will assume that you have just seen the thread, made no effort to read it, and asked which oil you want to run with no information about what for.

A communication failure

I normally put in as much effort to replying as people put into posting, but in this case I'll provide some kind of attempt at a summary with many technical errors in it

Soooo, I'll try and help, I'm not an oil expert and I don't work in the industry.

Basically the higher grade the oil the better, don't even think about running grade 1 (I) or 2 (II) in a Skyline, you want to run 3 (III), 4 (IV) or 5 (V).

The best of these is V if you can afford it, it will cost more but its better or the car.

In other words, if you have plenty of $$$ buy Motul 300V or Redline.

If your not rich, then consider oils like Motul 8100, Mobil 1 or maybe even Royal Purple.

Go grade 3 if you want, but its preferable if you can go grade 4...

Viscosity is about temperature rating, my n00b explanation of this, as I'm in IT not the oil/engineering industries, is the lower number relates to how easily the oil can flow when cold.

The higher number relates to how quickly the oil will heat up and become thinner, beyond a certain temperature, I think its above 110degrees, the oil starts to thin out due to heat.

A final note is the gap between the numbers should be as small as possible, running 0w30 is better than running 10w60.

In other words, if you drive you car around a track and your running 0w30, and your oil overheats then you may want an oil cooler, and to run a higher rated oil 0w40 or similar.

If your driving purely street than go for a 0w30 or similar, a 0w40 won't hurt your car, but a lower spread is better (the thread explains why, I believe it relates to chemicals added to maintain the temperature range of the oil or something).

Re-read this part of the first post:

1) Fuel dilution (fuel blowby into oil sump effectively thin down the oil viscosity)

Thicker oil can withstand more fuel dilution then thinner oil but thicker oil also causes friction drag, slower spool, higher FC and more startup wear.

For example: If you run Penrite Sin 25 25w60 in your engine, at 10’c morning when you first crank your engine, you would have effectively run 1131cSt startup viscosity. That’s like 4.5 times thicker then Mobil 1 0w40 (248.8cSt@10’c). It’s like running grease through your engine instead of oil.

2) Engine oil temp

Higher oil temp effectively thins the oil down.

For example: Mobil 1 0w40 is 14.3cSt @ 100'c but when avg oil temp raise to 120'c, it would have thin down to 9.1cSt which mean that it is effectively a 20wt oil (you do not want to run a 20wt oil when you racing down a track, do you). So if your avg oil temp are 90’c, any 30wt oil will do as it is effectively a 40wt oil at that temperature.

The key to the correct oil viscosity depends on mostly the above 2 conditions. There is no one size fit all oil.

That's the best I can do, and there are a lot of technical errors in there, so hopefully someone can tell me whats wrong and I'll edit it when I get time

[slidetaker]

All good with the pressure now, but still not sure on what oil. The 90*c and 105*c is my water temp, i dont have a oil temp gauge, so i have no idea how hot the oil was.

I missed, there is actually a question there.

On street, Mobil 1 5w30 silver bottle silver cap would be a good choice, not sure whether it will last 10KOCI, should be fine if you clock 10K within 6 months. Motul X-max 5w30 is another one that looks very good in paper. Ester based with quite recent manufacters' approvals.

On track, as mentioned, any Redline or 300V 40wt will return good results.

The cooling system does not give any specific numerical indication of engine temp. So it does really tell how hot the engine is running. Even the engine itself has some parts that runs hotter than another.

Hands up for all the effort of putting up the specs and information from Penrite on their website. It is the most comprehensive I have ever seen. However, their products does not look that impressive comparing to Mobil, Shell, Castrol, especially in HTHS, cts and TBS attributees.

[1SLP80]

Viscosity is about temperature rating, my n00b explanation of this, as I'm in IT not the oil/engineering industries, is the lower number relates to how easily the oil can flow when cold.

The higher number relates to how quickly the oil will heat up and become thinner, beyond a certain temperature, I think its above 110degrees, the oil starts to thin out due to heat.

A final note is the gap between the numbers should be as small as possible, running 0w30 is better than running 10w60.

In other words, if you drive you car around a track and your running 0w30, and your oil overheats then you may want an oil cooler, and to run a higher rated oil 0w40 or similar.

If your driving purely street than go for a 0w30 or similar, a 0w40 won't hurt your car, but a lower spread is better (the thread explains why, I believe it relates to chemicals added to maintain the temperature range of the oil or something).

I did state in my 1st post in this topic that i did not understand all the tecnichal side of the oil. But many thanks for now helping me out. I understood your reply much better than the 1st (correct or not haha).

Only 1 question,

You say the smaller the gap between the number the better, yeh?

if so, and your car heats up as much as mine (RB25 s1- in a 180sx), would i not be better going for a higher rated oil, like a 10w60? so as the car gets hot, it will thin out to like a 10w40?

or am i completly wrong, and it wont thin out that much, so a 0w40 would be ok?

p.s i will be going grade 4

p.p.s i will be getting an oil cooler in the coming months, but the car will see the track again before this happens.

[slidetaker]

if so, and your car heats up as much as mine (RB25 s1- in a 180sx), would i not be better going for a higher rated oil, like a 10w60? so as the car gets hot, it will thin out to like a 10w40?

or am i completly wrong, and it wont thin out that much, so a 0w40 would be ok?

How hot is hot?

Generally, HTHS of a 40wt oil is around 3.7 to 4 cP. That's is more than enough for RB engine on track, especially, if performance oil like 300V promoting 0% shear with good proportion of Grp IV, V base oil.

In terms of thinning, a 40wt and a 50wt thin down to a very similar viscosity in extreme heat temperature. However, a 50wt will have a thicker film thickness particularly in mixed boundary lubrication.

Don't see 60wt be used with any application in a Skyline. A bit extreme.

[1SLP80]

OK sweet as........ 0w50 is what im gunna get in a group IV. In the very 1st post it says that 0w40 thins down- and equates to about 20wt, which is not good for track use. At least the 50wt will give me a bit of head room.

Thanks to everybody that assisted me in understanding the whole oil thing.

Scott

[Cubes]

So your not running an oil cooler?

If you car is running hot its not suitable for track work until you sort its issues.