The Goods On Oils

[Galois]

Now remember, in some engines this oil does not take long to turn dark - do not take this as a sign of the oil breaking down - merely that it has done a bit of a draino job on your engine. I've heard that RB engines are pretty carbon intensive so this could be responsible for that.

how do you mean carbon intensive birds? what exactly is it that makes the engine oil go black? i understand its the breaking down of oil due to the temp, but what else?

Is that Castrol Edge, or just plain Castrol. Oil change every 1000kms would be expensive if you keep having to do it. How many times are going to change it?

just the plain castrol magnatec stuff. 1000km changes come every second weekend so ive started using the cheaper crap now. as for how long, not really sure. it was more brown-black yesterday than it has been before, the last changes looked like the oil had served 20000km, really black, horrid stuff. so hopefully only one or two more to go before i can get on to 5000km changes. i guess if its still black after 2 or 3 more ill have to start considering an engine flush, but i really would rather not do that. it'd take a long time for the engine to recover from that (ie: re build the carbon layers that actually help the engine)

[Galois]

ps: holy sh$t rolls, your sig is awesome haha

[KrazyKong]

It is funny how every 10 pages the best oil to use changes.

First it was motul, then it was chrono 300v, then it was royal purple, then something else now it is Sougi.

Is there someone injecting information into this thread to get sales? I don't doubt they are good oils but it just looks funny (I just skimmed the last 20 pages and have read all the other before).

The point of this thread is to have in one place information regarding one of the most commonly asked questions... what oil do I use in my car? From experience I can say the recommendations from auto stores like Autobarn, Super Cheap & Repco etc., mean about as much as me giving you legal advice, and I know nothing about law.

As Birds pointed out Motul is Chrono 300V. Also something to note, no one here is stating that either Motul or Royal Purple are now no good, or not recommending you use them. They are great oils, and still remain as such. However the cost factor comes into play. That's why Sougi is such a great oil. Almost identical oil for half the price. Sougi can only be comparable with the other oils in it's group rating, and at Group V, the only other oils to compare it to are Motul, Royal Purple and some Redline/Fuchs products.

I don't think this is a discussion about Motul/RP vs Sougi. Rather that Sougi could be a better oil than the Castrols, the Mobils, the Shells, the Penrites, the Nulons etc. for pretty much the same price. So you're getting Group V oil for Group III prices.

The last 20 pages of this thread, cover more about Sougi than in any other parts. I'd recommend not skimming them and reading them instead

how do you mean carbon intensive birds? what exactly is it that makes the engine oil go black? i understand its the breaking down of oil due to the temp, but what else?

just the plain castrol magnatec stuff. 1000km changes come every second weekend so ive started using the cheaper crap now. as for how long, not really sure. it was more brown-black yesterday than it has been before, the last changes looked like the oil had served 20000km, really black, horrid stuff. so hopefully only one or two more to go before i can get on to 5000km changes. i guess if its still black after 2 or 3 more ill have to start considering an engine flush, but i really would rather not do that. it'd take a long time for the engine to recover from that (ie: re build the carbon layers that actually help the engine)

If I understand it correctly, what I think Birds means is the RB engine produces quite a bit of carbon. Thus if using a detergent heavy oil, the oil is going to go black fairly quickly.

You remember my friends car I did the oil change on recently and forgot to screw in the pan bolt right!? lol. I sure do. I still managed to get 1-2L of Sougi into the engine, but obviously that wasn't going to be enough. So I drained that oil, and put a whole new bottle in. The car was never started, so the oil never got hot or thinned out. For having been in the engine for only one day, the new Sougi oil I drained out of the engine came out in parts black, in others clear. Talk about an expensive engine flush, but I was quite amazed at this.

Anyway, Galois if I was in your situation, I'd put in some Sougi now and not bother with the 1000kms oil changes. Sougi is going to clean your engine alot better than the Castrol stuff. If you're still worried about things, then do 2500kms with some Sougi now, then drop it and put some new stuff in. If you're paying $40 for some Castrol every 1000kms, then it would be cheaper to do Sougi for 2500kms at $60 vs $120.

What you have to determine is, is the oil that's coming out black because you have engine sludge and buildup, or because the detergents in the oil are cleaning the carbon from the engine. And from what Birds mentioned, carbon is going to be produced on a consistent basis with out engines.

It doesn't take much to turn your oil black. If you've ever cleaned the throttle body, and sprayed the carbon deposits and buildup, you know how quickly the cleaning liquid turns black. Birds has mentioned quite a few times that Sougi turns black fairly quickly. Thus meaning it's doing a good job at removing the carbon and other deposits from the engine.

I had always thought that black meant burnt, that it meant bad when it came to oil. Thus if the oil is black in your engine, get it out pronto. Funnily enough, the cheapest mineral oil around stays clearer for longer. Thus taking significantly more time to turn black. That doesn't mean your engine is cleaner, rather that the oil isn't actually doing any cleaning in the engine at all.

So again, I'd ditch the Castrol and just start using Sougi at this point. It's going to clean your engine better.

Edited May 17, 2010 by KrazyKong

[Birds]

LOL you're a life saver Kong, saved me typing out the TL;DR of it! Hit the nail on the head with all of that. Particularly good point about a cheap shitty mineral oil coming out the same colour - they often lack the complex additive packages of semi and full synthetics, giving you something of a false security that your engine is clean as a whistle.

All oil eventually breaks down over time, but you can take Sougi out in 1000km and it will be dark because it's got alot of additives in it and is very good at cleaning. The older an engine (and usually the more worn your piston rings, valve stem seals etc.), the more likely the oil is to become contaminated through blowby and exhaust, particularly if it's a thin oil that is good at lining your cylinder walls. With regard to RB engines, I have no exact source on it, but I remember a couple of people telling me they produced alot of carbon build up. I'm only saying this so you don't freak out when you drain Sougi and think it's broken down on you - I had a mate whose mechanic told him the oil had broken down after 1000km and he took his mechanics word over mine, but that's his loss lol. The stuff was designed for drifting so there isn't much you can throw at the oil short of a long dyno tuning session (should always change oil after dyno tuning IMO) or the longer side of a 10,000km interval that will break it down.

Have heard bad stories / theories about Magnatec, Galois. As it's designed to "stick" to engine internals - if it does the job it's meant to, then it's not going to make for a very good flushing oil - probably more detrimental if anything. Recommend using something else for flushing, or as Kong said jump straight on the Sougi bandwagon and change at a short interval - it shouldn't take many changes to bring your engine up to scratch. I'm with you on the anti engine flush sentiments, so if you're going to use Sougi down the track anyway, perhaps just let it do its work now before resorting to the prepsol.

[Galois]

interesting... thanks for the awesome replies guys

so the blackness comes from exhaust sooty crap getting out of the cylinder chamber into the oil? what would it mean then if the oil came out black every 1000 or 2500kms every time? should it ever come out looking new consistently?

just trying to gauge the situation.

the sougi is very good at cleaning the engine, though not in the detrimental methods that engine flushes are. so at equilibrium, with no carbon buildup being removed, so only blackness produced by degradation and exhaust blowby, how black would that make the oil? the degradation wouldn't be much on a group V after 5000kms, so pretty much all the dark material would be from exhaust material, is that very much over 5000km?

and for a poor detergent oil, does it just allow carbon buildup?

didnt realise magnatec was so crap, was just buying a cheap mineral oil as suggested several pages ago to simply "wash" the system. haha it'll prob come out clean!

might be looking for sougi pretty soon then. i have done 2 nulon's and an 8100, and now the magnatec.

krazykong, thats insane about the oil having black parts after 1 day!! i get your point tho, change slightly less often and use better stuff, and it makes sense here cos sougi is so cheap.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Galois

[KrazyKong]

interesting... thanks for the awesome replies guys

so the blackness comes from exhaust sooty crap getting out of the cylinder chamber into the oil? what would it mean then if the oil came out black every 1000 or 2500kms every time? should it ever come out looking new consistently?

just trying to gauge the situation.

the sougi is very good at cleaning the engine, though not in the detrimental methods that engine flushes are. so at equilibrium, with no carbon buildup being removed, so only blackness produced by degradation and exhaust blowby, how black would that make the oil? the degradation wouldn't be much on a group V after 5000kms, so pretty much all the dark material would be from exhaust material, is that very much over 5000km?

didnt realise magnatec was so crap, was just buying a cheap mineral oil as suggested several pages ago to simply "wash" the system. haha it'll prob come out clean!

might be looking for sougi pretty soon then. i have done 2 nulon's and an 8100, and now the magnatec.

krazykong, thats insane about the oil having black parts after 1 day!! i get your point tho, change slightly less often and use better stuff, and it makes sense here cos sougi is so cheap.

I can't answer those questions about how black the oil should be. I don't know enough about that to say what's good or bad. Rather I do know that black doesn't mean bad, or that the oil has broken down and needs replacing immediately. If you're burning oil, you'll be able to smell it anyway, see the smoke and be topping her up regularly. If you're not having to do any of these, then that's a good thing.

You're right, Sougi or any other oil isn't going to be as "effective" as a proper engine flush treatment. I was all set to do a flush myself, but after reading things on here decided against it. We all strive to make things clean and so on, but due to the age and wear of our engines it's very possible the stuff that's left in there is actually helping seal things nicely.

Galois, after reading you've done 2x Nulons, one 8100 and some Castrol, I'd put some Sougi in there now. You've done plenty of oil flushes, so I'd recommend just going straight to Sougi. I didn't realise how many changes you've done. Sougi is good for 10000kms, but rather than do 2500km as I mentioned before, you'll easily get 5000kms. If you feel it needs another change, then do it then and from that point on it's up to you if you want to change every 5000, 7500 or 10000kms.

If you're car is that sludged up and feeling the effects of not being serviced properly in Japan, then I think you'd know about it at this point. The key here, is your oil is most likely turning black due to carbon cleaning and not from sludge or other residue.

[iamhe77]

Yeah well that's part of the risk you take. Worst case scenario they stop making it and you switch back to 300V lol. But they've been making Sougi for a couple of years now and I can assure you I'll be ordering more than a few bottles if I ever get news of them ceasing production

Better start buying now then.

Just got these statements in two emails from Andrew at Gulf Western;

We will be discontinuing this product line in the coming months, so once our current stock is exhausted it will not be blended again.

When asked what can be done to ensure that Sougi S 6000 is not a "one and done" line, this is what I received

The only thing I could say is stock up beforehand. Unfortunately the decision has been made.

Regards,

Andrew Vicary

Gulf Western Premium Quality Lubricating Oil Po Box 515 Kingswood NSW

Looks like I will be staying (and paying) for Redline

Edited May 18, 2010 by iamhe77

[KrazyKong]

WTF! I expect Birds will have more info on this...

Edited May 18, 2010 by KrazyKong

[Galois]

that's bs!! damnit, i always did seem too good to be true!

[BASHO]

WHY ?

[Galois]

haha petition?

looking forward to birds' comments

[KrazyKong]

Yeah I was thinking that too Galois. A petition or simply messages of peoples support of the product from passionate car communities.

I have Andrew's email address actually from sometime back. Will await Bird's comments before sharing it. That way all who desire can send him an email and voice their disapproval at this.

Now what, we all horde 20 bottles of the stuff? or find another suitable 10w40 oil. That means Royal Purple or buying 4+2L of Motul 300V

You know what would be a good idea, is for a distributor to buy up big on the stuff, then sell it off over time. I mean if I knew I could purchase some Sougi for years to come, then paying $10-15 shipping wouldn't be a problem. Hopefully Birds might have some input on this too.

This sucks big time. I was buzzing about Sougi and their Syntrans ATF Fluid as well. I had a great perception of the company and I would say yes I had some brand loyalty for sure. But something like this only makes me pissed off. Enough to say FU, then go spend more money with another company. Not that I want to spend more money, but what choice do I have.

[Galois]

i think i'd be going royal purple, $80 for 5L, over the 300v. i wouldnt want to buy 4+2L cos it'll save money to buy 2x4L in the end, but thats like $210 in one spending on oil.

or motul 8100 for $75. i know you don't like the lighter cold weight of the 5w40 krazykong, but i tried it a few weeks ago and the car loved it! each car's different i know, but in terms of weight there isn't much difference between 5 and 10, and the difference is quicker protection of the engine and turbo by quick oil transport. and they have the same hot temp, which in reality is the important number...

[pipster11]

god dam it, thats horrible news

finally got mine today and put it in - car loves it

so does my mates bmw

will have to buy a few bottles then

[KrazyKong]

I'm still stewing about this. It might only be motor oil, but I've sure as heck spent a lot of time and money trying to find the right stuff, and being ripped off by the auto stores during the process. Why can't a company treat it's customers with care and look after them instead of always thinking of the bottom line. Speculating here, but I can't believe Sougi was a money losing excercise for GW, so why cancel it?

I hope Birds has some real info on this, the reasons for why, and maybe what we can do about it if anything. GW need to hear from people how this decision is the wrong one. Still I half expected this to happen one day feeling surely this was too good to be true. I mean we normally get raped by every company under the sun nowdays, what to speak of the Government screwing us over with all kinds of registrations, insurances, licensing and other ridiculous ways to simply make us go postal.

If there was a clear cut choice or alternative, then it wouldn't be so bad. Hell I even called around today for prices on some Chrono 300V. One hundred and sixty f**king dollars. Sougi $60. Motul $160. It's enough to make one go mad. Looking into things further, I'm not even sure Royal Purple was a Group V oil either. Certainly Group IV, but I think their XPR stuff is Group V.

Will need to research Redline and Fuchs. Spent hours this evening on the web looking at all kinds of brands from Elf, Pennzoil, Lucas, Xrev, Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Valvoline and many others. 10w40 in a fully synthetic is stupidly rare it seems. Unless I just give in and pretend the Nulons and rubbish are "fully" synthetic oils.

I'm not imaging things when I say that Sougi in my R33 is the best oil I've ever used, so naturally I don't want to go back to the shit I've been led to believe was the "right" stuff.

Birds, we need you bro.

Edited May 18, 2010 by KrazyKong

[Galois]

^ +1 tho id imagine birds is either pre-occupied with life outside of these forums or waiting on info from gw. i'll definitely buy several bottles if this is the end of sougi

ironically they'll have record sales from now till when it's cancelled

did you try 8100? as i said above, it was pretty sweet. it's not as good as sougi is terms of grade and price, but if sougi's out...

Edited May 18, 2010 by Galois

[Birds]

Maybe it was you guys incessantly bugging GW for distributor locations lol

In all seriousness though, this is the first I've heard of this believe it or not. I apologise for my late response, I haven't checked this thread for some time. It's sounding like pretty bad news. And what horrible timing it is when you guys just got on the Sougi wagon - looks like I have to eat my words / spoke too soon. Sougi has been out for about 3 years, so it's not a completely one and done product line - but perhaps did not receive the fanbase in time to save it and justify blending the stuff.

Will talk to Andrew tomorrow, but if that email is anything to go by I don't think I can do anything on my front short of stocking up on the stuff as much as business cash flow will afford me and selling it to you guys (don't worry, I won't jack up the price lol). Of course this will deplete over time but atleast you'll get a few changes out of me while you find yourselves a suitable replacement. I can assure you I'll be keeping atleast 10 bottles aside just for me...fortunately packaged oil has a very long shelf life. If you would like me to get hold of a few bottles for your own storage (they come in boxes of 4) I would be happy to arrange that for any of you.

If GW don't come up with a Group V 10w40 replacement for it (guessing they won't, as viability is most probably the reason this oil will be axed), then I too will be switching to something like Royal Purple or 300V. They do have a semi synthetic 10w40 called SYN-X-3000 which is a great little oil in itself (my number one seller for automotive workshops in the 205 drums) and would run perfectly fine in a Skyline, but it's not as formulated as Sougi in terms of additives.

Probably the best thing you can do on your front is to express your disdain to GW in a letter, email or telephone call - as I will be doing over the phone tomorrow. It may not bring Sougi back but atleast you can let GW know that Sougi had its fans and killing it off may not have been a good decision in terms of company image. This is an oil that was given a couple of years to grow but never marketed as well as it could have been IMO. Remember though, that this will have been an executive decision for GW in the interests of the company - simple viability, not so much a case of not caring about customers. GW is a volume oil seller, and as I said before, packaged oil is more a marketing exercise than a money maker for oil companies...so whatever the reasons for axing Sougi they aren't losing much money by doing so. Fans, well that's another thing...

R.I.P Sougi

[KrazyKong]

You know of all the ways to let a company know your disdain and what you feel about them, I have heard actually the humble letter is one of the most effective. It carries more weight than an email or phone call as it shows you were so concerned you took the time to write out something, goto the post office and mail it. You can bet your ass I'll be mailing something soon to them.

Birds, I hope your conversation with Andrew goes well. There might still be hope, even if it's a long shot.

GW did a terrible job of marketing this oil, and just about their entire range on a retail front. So it really is no surprise to see they canned it. Heck some weeks back I even made a comment about hoping they weren't going to discontinue selling it, as it just seemed odd we could only get it from a distributor. Yet all those rubbish oils were sitting on the shelves in the Ricebarns, Notso Super Cheaps and Pepcos.

I suppose it might be worth looking at the Syn-X, but at this point I don't want to go back a step in grade and quality of oil after using Sougi. Maybe I'll have to re-evaluate my position of 10w40 being the only weight of oil I would be using from now on. I don't know.

I was so impressed with Sougi, it gave me the confidence to try their Syntrans ATF fluid. I figured if they can make one product that is great, surely they could make more. I mean we're all beating the Sougi drum here, and in fact gaining sales for GW, even if they are only nickels and dimes. Awareness is growing, people are becoming aware of this product.

Image perception is still a wanted factor by companies regardless of whether they do more business in a volume or industrial zone than retail. But the impact of seeing a loved product pulled only creates disgust and anger from what I've seen.

Yeah it seems the Royal Purple and 300V options are looking more likely the only options. However I do want to see if I can find a distributor for Redline, what it costs and so on. Otherwise, what about the idea of being able to get 300V cheaper from Motul (Link International) and then passing on those savings to folks here? I mean if a 4L bottle retails for $105, what would the buy price be I wonder. Heck maybe all you need is an ABN or something and some "Dyno" shop in some far off suburb to then qualify for the dealer prices. Something to look into for the future I suppose, but really not worth spending much time on at present.

Birds, maybe you can persuade Andrew to do one more run of Sougi perhaps with the idea that ok they might still kill the product in the end, but if we all send him our vote of confidence and how well loved the product is, maybe we might get a reprieve for a little while.

And yeah, I gather it's a corporate move by the executives, but it's a completely stupid one at that. From my searches on Google today I found posts in all kinds of forums from rexies to commodores, to beamers all using Sougi. So it's not just us guys who lose. Plus it's sold overseas as well in Asia and Kiwiland.

GW need to hire a promoter, a proper person who is passionate about their product and get it in stores. It might make them a few more dollars, but the perception of their company would be far better than the cheap $12 bottles of 20w50 that are sold in Ricebarn and K-Marts. I mean that's what I thought of their company to begin with. A cheapass "Australian" in name only company who put out oil on par with your cooking oil. How wrong was I.

If we are talking marketing exercises here, then the Bugatti Veyron has to be the most spectacular example. So what if VW lose money on each car sold, the good will, admiration and fandom that car created is phenominal. They couldn't have achieved that spending the same amount of money just for marketing anyway, so really the company still wins in the end.

I don't GW even realise how good Sougi is, let alone how so few other companies have made something on par with it. They need to know, and I think we can all make a difference.

Oh, one final thing, Birds can you ask Andrew if GW are killing both versions of Sougi? I'm pretty sure we all only care about the S 6000 version anyway, so if we are losing the M 5000 I don't think anyone's going to care as long as the S 6000 is still around.

Edited May 18, 2010 by KrazyKong

[some_cs_student]

Sougi can only be comparable with the other oils in it's group rating, and at Group V, the only other oils to compare it to are Motul, Royal Purple and some Redline/Fuchs products.

Last time I spoke to an oil expert Royal Purple was not a group V, it was a blend.

Are Motul a true group V? And which Motul are you referring to? Not all Motul's are group V.

[Galois]

motul 8100 is group IV, 300V is group V.

any updates birds? probably going to pick up a 4 pack next week, have to call for my local distributer