The Goods On Oils

[Jez13]

i really hope thats not the case for the 08 wrx's. Read the whole thread on the REX forum. They seem to advise against fully synthetic as it 'glazes' the pistons...and some guy reckons his engine blew from 300v!!? Doubt it was the 300v, the best oil I have ever used in my GTR. Still have to talk to the subaru service centre.

[Galois]

glazes? if it happens on wrx pistons wouldn't it happen on rb's?

[siksII]

Sounds like they dont know what they are talking about.. pistons dont glaze, bores do, and that normally happens when they motor is brand new during the running in period. You should use a run in oil in that period, not a synthetic, perhaps thats what they are talking about?

http://coxengineering.co.uk/bore.aspx

[KrazyKong]

i really hope thats not the case for the 08 wrx's. Read the whole thread on the REX forum. They seem to advise against fully synthetic as it 'glazes' the pistons...and some guy reckons his engine blew from 300v!!? Doubt it was the 300v, the best oil I have ever used in my GTR. Still have to talk to the subaru service centre.

I think that some guy isn't so clued in on this. 300V is one of the best oils out there, so if his engine supposedly blew using that, imagine the disaster if he'd been using Magnatec or some other crud. Most likely something else was occurring and the oil got the blame.

[central coast person]

You cannot bed the piston rings into the cylinders and allow a 'seal' if you use a synthetic. There designed to coat the walls and stick there which is only good after the seal has been created between the ring and cylinder wall, what happens if you do use the oil or even any oil additives is the oil travels up the cylinder when its glazed because you have not allowed room for bedding and you burn the oil off as the ring drags the oil too the top of the cylinder. You can tell if you have glazed it because all your oil will burn off fairly fast.

I use 15w-40 penrite everyday oil when bedding an engine in, Also change the oil & filter at 10km(im really picky with this as there are lost of fine particles that need to be removed), 100km, 1000km, 3000km too make sure it beds well. The oil is $30 for 5L and filter is about $10 so its actully a cheaper process than it sounds.

[siksII]

Monster reply time!!

I certainly haven't experienced a placebo affect. I know what oil I've put in previously, how the car ran, how it felt different than the original unknown oil in before that. I knew right away the Penrite HPR10 I used for my first oil change was the wrong stuff despite others saying "should" be ok. It wasn't, but I did 5000kms on it, then dumped it pronto. It was 10w50 which should then only be different when hot, but the cold weight differences vs Sougi were incredibly noticeable. Yet they are both 10w.

Then I put in Sougi and all I can say from my own personal firsthand experience... I know how my car is reacting to this oil. It's not a placebo if it runs smoother, has less tapping noises, and revs freer. It's not a placebo if the oil pressure reaches running temperature quicker. What you've missed here siksII is that along with people stating their positive experiences with Sougi, hand in hand with this is the discussion about the correct weight oil for our Skylines. It's not just the fact Sougi is a true Ester based synthetic, but it's also from my own experience the best weight oil for my driving style, environment, weather patterns etc. And not one person here has said... yep I put in Sougi... it was shit... I'm going back to Magnatec!

And to confirm what Birds was saying, absolutely we all know those knocks and sounds in our cars, if something is new or hmmm where is that tapping noise coming from etc.

A UOA only tells you what's happening on a molecular level. Real world experience of driving the car, feeling how it's running is more important in my book. A UOA could tell us a 10w70 margarine oil is the best because it has no shear and maintains it's viscosity over time. A real world analysis of this would tell you within seconds, WTF did I just put in my engine!?

First you need to find an oil that's the right weight, then based on what you want to spend whether it be mineral, poly or ester based. Only then once you've tried the oil out, driven the car and are happy with how it's performing is a UOA of any benefit. As it's the length of time you use an oil that then makes a UOA relevant. In this case, it would make a case if we ran Sougi for 10,000kms vs 5000kms or 7500kms. Then we could see the oil doesn't sheer until X kms, thus we can safely get 10,000kms out of it, or to be safe change it at 8000 or 9000 etc.

An analysis of used oil is a waste of time without factoring how your car responds to using it in the first place.

Krazy, let me give you some background. I have owned my car for around 5 years now, had another r33 before that and have taken care of both myself the entire time. I have driven in all sorts of conditions from sub zero to 40deg on the road and track whilst trying most of the oils you can easily buy so dont think I just put some oil in, analysed it and then came to an early conclusion.

Why would you believe people saying that a 10w50 would be fine for normal use? If you did your research then you would know not to use that in the first place. Hope you didnt follow guidance about that oil from the street commodores test which the editors later retracted and apologised for?

I have a fair idea on my own car about what differences oils can make, these are the oils I have tried on my own cars with my own hands doing the work:

Valvoline SynPower

Royal Purple

Mobil 1

Delvac 1

Castrol Formula R

Motul 4100

Motul 8100

I have also personally changed a bunch of other oils on friends cars commonly including 300v in 15w50 and 10w40 as well as Mobil semi synth and Magnatec.

After the last 8 years and how many ever oil changes I would put money on people not being able to consistently tell the difference between brands of oil in the correct viscosities if we did a blind experiment where brand new oil was changed multiple times after which the car was taken for a drive.

I agree with most of what you say however believe there is more to it than just how it feels if you are going to make judgement calls about an oil. Of course you need to follow the manufacturers spec keeping in mind the climate and the way you use it, these are basic steps and im sure 90% of people do that already. What I am talking about is the difference between brands and types of oil of the correct viscosity, not those initial stages of selection.

In relation to UOA, I have used 4 lots of the same oil (Motul 8100) in a row and have had 3 in a row tested. Im no expert but can read the numbers and get some idea and compare with what is normal and the previous/later sample to get a better idea of whats going on then going "yeah the car is running awesome, oil must be great". Right now my oil has a higher concentration of contaminants than average, the fuel dilution is high for its age and the oil has thinned out fair bit... but the car is running great so how would I know whether or not to change the oil or not without analysis and whether or not my engine is suffering greater than usual wear right now? The oil is only 3 months and 2200kms old.

esters (in general) have a slight polarity due to the double bonded oxygen present but, depending on the reactants used in the ester manufacture, there are likely to be significantly long carbon chains to offset the effect of that oxygen. these chains may have polar ends, we (me at least) can't comment on the particualr molecules used as castrol no doubt keeps that secret. that said, polarity doesn't have anything to do with magnetism. all the shape and the minor polatiry of the ester does is affect its surface properties, which is why its an effective oil. perhaps, due to its surface properties, it does stick to the engine similar to how a charged particle does to some extent, but oil is viscous and a liquid, which in terms of serface activity behaves very different to a light particle with a charge. the oil will drain with the rest of it into the sump. anything that causes the oil to stick to the engine components is an additive of castrols.

If you don't control the UOA process than details such as the last couple of oils used and when they were changed have much more of an effect. im not saying that its less relevant, you're right its more relevant to real life, but the variables increase dramatically on an experiment with many many variables as it is (engine life, how its been driven, climates, engine treatment, modifications). 5000km is not a long time and in the extreme example the new oil may be cleaning up after the no-name brand one. Just to clarify, I haven't done a UOA but the process seems to have a lot of variability from car to car, situation to situation.

Interesting about your wear rates mate, what oil are you using?

What is the path for the sand from the air filter to the oil? Does it just get through from blowby? If so that's pretty scary that detectable amounts can get past the cylinders

Castrol states publicly that the ingredient that makes their Magnatec magnetic is ester, its not some other magic additive they have formulated. If you look past the marketing material and do a search of the castrol web site or rest of the internet you will find plenty of reference to this.

When I say silicon, I am talking about particles of abrasive silicon that are not caught by your air or oil filter. It gets in through the combustion chamber then passed by the rings. We are talking mostly particles less than 10 microns in size and some between 10-20 microns. The rest will most likely be caught by your air or oil filter. I have high amounts of silicon in my sample and will be changing the air filter at the same time as the oil to hopefully see a reduction - trend has been steady upward so far.

I am using Motul 8100 which is on paper one of the best oils I have used so far and my car runs perfectly as it has on the rest of the oils I have used and I would recommend it since its probably the cheapest true group IV PAO oil out there. I have found that it thins out quickly the way I use the car and hence plan to use a slightly thicker group V this time around.

That's because there are more than a few people on the internet running with the misconception that a UOA is the ultimate in revealing how good or bad an oil is, not taking into account the thousand of other factors which affect UOA results...or the original purpose of a UOA. The bottom line is we're not all trained scientists performing double blind tests under controlled conditions, nor is the engine going to be operated under controlled/consistent conditions - worse than not doing a test at all, is doing it incorrectly and misdiagnosis. A UOA is useful for one person, using the same oil consistently, monitoring the wear of their engine - that's what UOAs were originally designed for. Even then the results are only indicative.

So, bad oil...or:

- Wear of other filters in the engine

- Hard/soft driving

- Changes to driving distances

- Engine startup frequency

- Engine running time

- Lack of vehicle use

- Time difference between test intervals

- Bad batch of fuel resulting in detonation

- More/less oil put in than last time, diluting/concentrating results

- Climate: hot/cold weather altering first start and engine shut off wear

- Oil drain process: contaminants left behind in engine

- Oil drain process: previous oil left behind in engine

- Oil drain process: engine flush removing protective carbon buildup and possibly inducing more engine wear with the fresh oil

- New oil removing more contaminants from engine offering the misperception it is causing them

- Bad batch of oil

These are just off the top of my head...and I'm no scientist. There's a hundred factors involved in it, all with their own little impact on UOA results. The beauty of human touch is that it carries an infinite sense in terms of perceptability. That's why a mechanic will test drive a vehicle to diagnose and resolve a problem - we don't go measuring each and every part on the vehicle to see if it's still as factory / the extent of wear on it - then when that checks out fine, say "she's all fine despite that horrible noise you can still hear". That's why I'd rather drive my car and use my senses to tell whether the oil I've put in it is making it run like a pile of shit or the best it's ever run before. But each to their own...

Correcto!

I'll flat out admit that I hate UOAs. They are overrated and overused as a means to diagnose the effectiveness of an engine oil...too many underlying factors are involved. They are actually more useful in determining if there are other problems with the engine, or whether the oil is in need of a change, rather than the effectiveness of an oil in the first place.

Birds, I dont think we will ever see eye to eye on this since you are a UOA hater... AND you seem to have followers!!! But its an interesting discussion either way..

As I said, im not expert either, but will do whatever I can to easily and scientifically work out what is best. Regardless of your valid points about variables, the following are still relevant positives about doing the test which I believe are valuable and which you would not otherwise know:

-See the different additives in oils. Most the additives between formulations are well known and by analysing you can make some assumptions about which oil might be best for your usage

-State of the engine at the time of the test regardless of oil used. When you test the oil you will know if the wear levels are abnormally high for some reason and dump the oil/work out whats wrong

-State of the oil. Get an idea of whether its worth changing

-If your engine is somehow stuffed. If there is massive amounts of water, petrol or metals in the oil the car could be running perfect but you will know something is up

-If the oil right for your purposes. You can see how much it has thinned out (if at all) compared to another oil after similar use.

Its not like I blindly follow the UOA, I only recently started doing it but am glad I did. Even though my UOA is not coming out good I will not say the 8100 is a bad oil in fact I will say that from how the car runs and how I have used it, I believe its probably a very good oil for most people but just not enough for me.

What I wish we had here in Australia was a large amount of people testing their oil and a workshop with experience in testing enthusiasts cars like they have in the US. The lab itself could then give expert advice backed by their experience of seeing hundreds of other samples from the same cars.

[KrazyKong]

Wow monster reply indeed

Why would you believe people saying that a 10w50 would be fine for normal use?

Not everyone is born with the knowledge to always know what to do, when to do it, and how. Thus with oil, I asked many in the auto stores and not knowing any better took their recommendation, which was at that time the Penrite HPR10 (10w50). But I knew within the first 2kms the 10w50 was the wrong oil for my car. Thus I toughed it out, got my 5000kms out of it, and drained it.

Running the 10w40 Sougi ester oil, the car is a lot happier. And in between my Penrite 10w50 and the Sougi change, I spent quite a few months reading here and researching. I may not have known in the beginning when I first got my car what oil to use, but I feel I now know as I couldn't be happier with what's in the engine at present.

[Galois]

Monster reply time!!

lol there's a few of these

Castrol states publicly that the ingredient that makes their Magnatec magnetic is ester, its not some other magic additive they have formulated. If you look past the marketing material and do a search of the castrol web site or rest of the internet you will find plenty of reference to this.

When I say silicon, I am talking about particles of abrasive silicon that are not caught by your air or oil filter. It gets in through the combustion chamber then passed by the rings. We are talking mostly particles less than 10 microns in size and some between 10-20 microns. The rest will most likely be caught by your air or oil filter. I have high amounts of silicon in my sample and will be changing the air filter at the same time as the oil to hopefully see a reduction - trend has been steady upward so far.

I am using Motul 8100 which is on paper one of the best oils I have used so far and my car runs perfectly as it has on the rest of the oils I have used and I would recommend it since its probably the cheapest true group IV PAO oil out there. I have found that it thins out quickly the way I use the car and hence plan to use a slightly thicker group V this time around.

The simple answer mate is that nulon advertises as fully synthetic, but it's only group III. Advertising means very little.

What is important is that polarity has nothing to do with magnetism. What polarity does affect is surface chemistry, which may promote sticking of the charged particles to the metal, similar to how statically charged balloons attract dust and hair. and tiny charged particles connect to larger ones (such as in fine sands).

Polarity of the chemical being an ester is extremely unlikely to have any affect on the surface chemistry (and the overall polarity), the particular structure of the ester will be the influence on that, and it's that exactly that castrol will keep secret.

Yes to get past both filters they must be extremely small particles, I was just surprised that so much gets in the engine, we'd be breathing in measurable amounts too. Interesting, but a little off topis.

Birds has helped quite a few of us and offered a lot of good advice, but that said no-one should follow blindly.

If you use a shit oil and then change to 300V then do a UOA you will get a different result to if you use 300V then do a change with 300V and take a UOA upon the next change, which dramatically effects the validity of results without knowledge of the previous oil.

UOA's are something i'll look into doing when i have more cash, just for interest. I like the idea of having a chemical assay of the oil. And there are obvious advantages such as determining when to change, but it's not as clear cut when it comes to oil performances.

[Galois]

Wow monster reply indeed

Not everyone is born with the knowledge to always know what to do, when to do it, and how. Thus with oil, I asked many in the auto stores and not knowing any better took their recommendation, which was at that time the Penrite HPR10 (10w50). But I knew within the first 2kms the 10w50 was the wrong oil for my car. Thus I toughed it out, got my 5000kms out of it, and drained it.

Running the 10w40 Sougi ester oil, the car is a lot happier. And in between my Penrite 10w50 and the Sougi change, I spent quite a few months reading here and researching. I may not have known in the beginning when I first got my car what oil to use, but I feel I now know as I couldn't be happier with what's in the engine at present.

we all make mistakes mate. before i found these forums i had no idea how exactly to learn about all this stuff, hadn't even done an oil change before haha

[R.3.2.G.T.R]

sougi fans, where did u get ur oil in western syd area??

[iceman]

{EDIT} took out caps so as not to offend.

After reading this thread it's clear that the reason you guys don't see eye to eye is because some of you are talking about how fast your oil is causing your engine to wear and some are talking about the 'feeling' you get from using a particular oil.

As siksII points out there are lots of ways oil can be bad for your engine. These are all quantifiable and do indeed indicate how quickly your engine is wearing out "dying".

but as others have pointed out, using top notch oil with the manufacturer’s specs can still make the car sound and feel rough. Driving around with a rough sounding engine just doesn't inspire confidence and so you drive 'softly' so as not to hurt your engine.

At the end of the day you are all aiming to have an enjoyable driving experience. both of aspects of your oil (the feeling and the engine wear) affect the driving experience and so are both equally relevant.

This is not the first time a single forum thread has been host to two quite separate conversations. Trying to ‘win both of these at once’, so to speak, is futile.

For the record I agree with you both. I aim to buy oil that doesn't cause excessive wear to my engine but at the same time doesn't make it sound like a diesel truck.

Not everyone is born with the knowledge to always know what to do, when to do it, and how.

PS: Statements like these are not helping anyone. We were all born with free will. If you care enough about something you WILL put in the effort to learn about it. No one is born knowing the answers to life. We all have to learn them our selves.

Edited June 9, 2010 by iceman

[Galois]

For the record I agree with you both. I aim to buy oil that doesn't cause excessive wear to my engine but at the same time doesn't make it sound like a diesel truck.

who doesn't? any argument of whether UOA's or feel are a better indicator is irrelevant as we're all just looking for the best oil.

btw you have a 170rwkw mx5?! holy crap i bet that goes!!!!

[KrazyKong]

{EDIT} took out caps so as not to offend.

After reading this thread it's clear that the reason you guys don't see eye to eye is because some of you are talking about how fast your oil is causing your engine to wear and some are talking about the 'feeling' you get from using a particular oil.

As siksII points out there are lots of ways oil can be bad for your engine. These are all quantifiable and do indeed indicate how quickly your engine is wearing out "dying".

but as others have pointed out, using top notch oil with the manufacturer’s specs can still make the car sound and feel rough. Driving around with a rough sounding engine just doesn't inspire confidence and so you drive 'softly' so as not to hurt your engine.

At the end of the day you are all aiming to have an enjoyable driving experience. both of aspects of your oil (the feeling and the engine wear) affect the driving experience and so are both equally relevant.

This is not the first time a single forum thread has been host to two quite separate conversations. Trying to ‘win both of these at once’, so to speak, is futile.

For the record I agree with you both. I aim to buy oil that doesn't cause excessive wear to my engine but at the same time doesn't make it sound like a diesel truck.

PS: Statements like these are not helping anyone. We were all born with free will. If you care enough about something you WILL put in the effort to learn about it. No one is born knowing the answers to life. We all have to learn them our selves.

Yes, but our knowledge starts at a certain point. A question or statement being directed at me stating I should have known better than to use a 10w50 oil in my car... when at that point in time I didn't have all the info or knowledge about what to use is silly. I did do some research and ask, and made an attempt to find something compatible with my car. I thought based on the recommendations of the auto store, I had made a wise decision.

However I hadn't yet found these forums. After finding them, I gained more knowledge and understanding of what oil my car would run best on, found a source for the oil and bought some. The outcome has been fantastic I must say, so my endeavor for the right oil paid dividends. I may not have known in the beginning what to use, but I still managed to find something proper in the end.

[Rolls]

I heard that a while back when the 2.0 WRX was out Subaru was recommending a thin oil as standard... A lot of new cars from around NT/WA that had high speed/high temperature use spun bearings in a short period.

I have no reference for this but a good friend of mine at the time that had one mentioned it.. people started to use a heavier oil than standard to avoid that. I doubt its the same with the 2.5 being a new motor but food for thought anyhow.

Why would a heavier oil prevent the bearings from going? If they were going to go I doubt it would have matter which oil they used, something was obviously wrong with that motor from day one. Or it had high kms and had a hard life.

In relation to UOA, I have used 4 lots of the same oil (Motul 8100) in a row and have had 3 in a row tested. Im no expert but can read the numbers and get some idea and compare with what is normal and the previous/later sample to get a better idea of whats going on then going "yeah the car is running awesome, oil must be great". Right now my oil has a higher concentration of contaminants than average, the fuel dilution is high for its age and the oil has thinned out fair bit... but the car is running great so how would I know whether or not to change the oil or not without analysis and whether or not my engine is suffering greater than usual wear right now? The oil is only 3 months and 2200kms old.

Good post but have you compared the 8100 oil analysis to any other oil? Because if you don't compare it to anything the results aren't really that useful, you need to compare it to other oils to see which is doing a better job for your engine. Sure you can see the job it is currently doing, but you can't see if it is better/worse than other oils.

Castrol states publicly that the ingredient that makes their Magnatec magnetic is ester, its not some other magic additive they have formulated. If you look past the marketing material and do a search of the castrol web site or rest of the internet you will find plenty of reference to this.

Just something to add here ester is a type of chemical, it is not A chemical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester

I realise you probably know this, but thought I would post it in case others do not.

Also I totally agree that no one on this forum can tell the difference between what oil they are using by feel, sure you might get less tappet noise, different oil pressures etc, but unless you are comparing a 5-30w to 25-60w oil you are not going to be able to feel the difference. Oil analysis is really the only scientific way to compare the job they are doing.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Rolls

[Galois]

Just something to add here ester is a type of chemical, it is not A chemical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester

ahh, yeah probably should have mentioned that

Also I totally agree that no one on this forum can tell the difference between what oil they are using by feel, sure you might get less tappet noise, different oil pressures etc, but unless you are comparing a 5-30w to 25-60w oil you are not going to be able to feel the difference. Oil analysis is really the only scientific way to compare the job they are doing.

it's exactly those noises that we're listening for to determine how an oil is. if you hear loud tappets when you change to a new oil how long will you put up with it? same if your engine literally sounds louder and harsher.

i do reckon my car felt slower to accelerate with really shite oil, just from watching the rpm. maybe i was paying more attention cos the engine sounded terrible, but even if there's less than a second in it it's noticeable when ou drive the car a lot. in terms of actual feel, that comes down to confidence with your engine tho, and unless you're an f1 driver it is unlikely your backside will notice the difference of 0.5 seconds between 0 and 60km/h (for example)

[siksII]

Why would a heavier oil prevent the bearings from going? If they were going to go I doubt it would have matter which oil they used, something was obviously wrong with that motor from day one. Or it had high kms and had a hard life.

Good post but have you compared the 8100 oil analysis to any other oil? Because if you don't compare it to anything the results aren't really that useful, you need to compare it to other oils to see which is doing a better job for your engine. Sure you can see the job it is currently doing, but you can't see if it is better/worse than other oils.

Just something to add here ester is a type of chemical, it is not A chemical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester

I realise you probably know this, but thought I would post it in case others do not.

Also I totally agree that no one on this forum can tell the difference between what oil they are using by feel, sure you might get less tappet noise, different oil pressures etc, but unless you are comparing a 5-30w to 25-60w oil you are not going to be able to feel the difference. Oil analysis is really the only scientific way to compare the job they are doing.

Oil thins out as temperature rises, hence at high rpm/high ambient temp use, the oil would thin out during driving more than say crawling around in Sydney and giving it a quick squirt here and there. The oil can thin out enough that there is no protection between the metal surfaces and you can spin a bearing. Sort of similar to oil starvation on gtrs.

If you start with a thicker oil it would hopefully thin to a viscosity which the engine is designed for and which provides enough protection.

I have not compared it on my car to other oils, just 3 lots of the same oil, thats why im looking forward to upgrading oils. I have seen other UOAs around the net and know the average amounts so have a basic idea of what to expect.

[Jez13]

wow, this thread reminds me of the rotary one. 2 reasonable arguements that will never be agreed upon. Further to my earlier posts about what oil to use in my 2.5 08 WRX, I just got back from the service centre. They insisted on 5w30 and semi synthetic. They also said that fully synthetic oils will increase oil consumption...I beleive this should only be apparent if you use it for run in (as siksII explained) so my car is at 28,000 which should be well worn in. So now I just have to chose a good fully synthetic oil that supports that (or similar) viscosity.

[Birds]

Birds, I dont think we will ever see eye to eye on this since you are a UOA hater... AND you seem to have followers!!! But its an interesting discussion either way..

As I said, im not expert either, but will do whatever I can to easily and scientifically work out what is best. Regardless of your valid points about variables, the following are still relevant positives about doing the test which I believe are valuable and which you would not otherwise know:

-See the different additives in oils. Most the additives between formulations are well known and by analysing you can make some assumptions about which oil might be best for your usage

-State of the engine at the time of the test regardless of oil used. When you test the oil you will know if the wear levels are abnormally high for some reason and dump the oil/work out whats wrong

-State of the oil. Get an idea of whether its worth changing

-If your engine is somehow stuffed. If there is massive amounts of water, petrol or metals in the oil the car could be running perfect but you will know something is up

-If the oil right for your purposes. You can see how much it has thinned out (if at all) compared to another oil after similar use.

Its not like I blindly follow the UOA, I only recently started doing it but am glad I did. Even though my UOA is not coming out good I will not say the 8100 is a bad oil in fact I will say that from how the car runs and how I have used it, I believe its probably a very good oil for most people but just not enough for me.

What I wish we had here in Australia was a large amount of people testing their oil and a workshop with experience in testing enthusiasts cars like they have in the US. The lab itself could then give expert advice backed by their experience of seeing hundreds of other samples from the same cars.

Perhaps I worded that a bit poorly...I don't hate UOAs because of what they are, I hate them because of what people falsely make them out to be. They are very useful things...for the right purposes. And if you read the last part of my post I declare what they are useful for, which is in agreement of most of the things you posted above^. My "followers" are just people who believe in the qualitative measure of oil serving a better purpose than any statistics can show us - humans are tactile creatures!

UOA tests of someone elses vehicle, even of the same make and model, bar extreme cases, are not going to be useful...as you know, they are an analysis of that individual engine. As I have said many times there are too many underlying factors for that to be of any use to anyone else. You can't generalise UOA results beyond what is already bleeding obvious (e.g. don't use a 25w70 in your Skyline engine or suffer severe wear) because every engine is different. So even if I did a UOA on my Sougi oil (as some_cs_student requested earlier in this thread) it would mean nothing to you. Now I never claimed that subjectiveness of Galois/Kong/My qualitative measures (feel of the engine) will allow us to say an oil will definitely work for someone else, as it has similar drawbacks to UOA results...BUT...our qualitative results are more generalisable (is that a word?) than UOA results because UOA results are so scientifically specific / accurate it makes the results too inaccurate to generalise to someone else. Ours are surface observations - quiter engine, less smoke, easier to rev, more responsive. And as iceman points out below, more important to most enthusiasts is the feel of the vehicle...you will NOT find an enthusiast who is happy to use an oil that makes their car feel rough no matter how good UOA results are. So perhaps "feel" first, then UOA after to determine service intervals? But we can't go telling other people that an oil will work wonders in their car because our UOA results are top notch...

but as others have pointed out, using top notch oil with the manufacturer’s specs can still make the car sound and feel rough. Driving around with a rough sounding engine just doesn't inspire confidence and so you drive 'softly' so as not to hurt your engine.

At the end of the day you are all aiming to have an enjoyable driving experience. both of aspects of your oil (the feeling and the engine wear) affect the driving experience and so are both equally relevant.

This is not the first time a single forum thread has been host to two quite separate conversations. Trying to ‘win both of these at once’, so to speak, is futile.

For the record I agree with you both. I aim to buy oil that doesn't cause excessive wear to my engine but at the same time doesn't make it sound like a diesel truck.

PS: Statements like these are not helping anyone. We were all born with free will. If you care enough about something you WILL put in the effort to learn about it. No one is born knowing the answers to life. We all have to learn them our selves.

Well said but I think you are guilty of inciting the same thing you called us up on - trying to win two different conversations. I don't think you've properly understood what Kong was saying. Experience is king of learning and often the reason we want to learn in the first place. There aren't many who go out and actively seek the answers first before giving something it a shot. How many people read an instruction manual before attempting to plug in an appliance? Sometimes we get it right the first time, sometimes we learn the right way later on...but you can't expect every consumer to know the ins and outs of oil, some people just don't have the mind for it and need to be told what will work and what won't regardless of how hard they try to learn.

[siksII]

Wow monster reply indeed

Not everyone is born with the knowledge to always know what to do, when to do it, and how. Thus with oil, I asked many in the auto stores and not knowing any better took their recommendation, which was at that time the Penrite HPR10 (10w50).

Krazy, sorry - I said that assuming you chose the 10w50 with the knowledge you have now.

Anyhow, I had a google around and the Gulf distributor is in Penrith which is ages away for me so instead I drove 10 mins to repco and bought myself some 300v 10w-40. Normal price of $104 for 4L is pretty rough, but with 20% off for $84 its not so bad. Its a small amount over cheaper oil anyhow if you think of it over a 3-6 month period (my normal change intervals).

I should have time to replace my oil on Saturday. As pessimistic as I am about this, I will try my best to sense any perceptible difference after the change

[Birds]

I coulda delivered a 5L Sougi to your door for $75