The Goods On Oils

[dark-knight]

Has anyone had any experience with HKS 10W-45 oil for use in a R34 GTR?

Same stuff as seen in this package:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Hk...service+package

[Galois]

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produkt.../id/e_1091.html

Views?? Cant find anything on here about it.

Hey mate,

First thing: it's not fully synthetic. Unless you're going for a really high quality part synthetic, just go for group IV or V (ie: fully synthetic oils). It's also usable for diesel as well as petrol, which might make it very versatile, maybe too versatile for a performance engine?

I'm guessing it's pretty cheap? Otherwise not really worth it. I couldn't find it its a group IV or V mix, group V is the better...

[Galois]

Just ordered 4 bottles of sougi s6000 from the dealer-man near here, costing less than 260 (ie less than 65/bottle and it's comparable to 300v).

Anyways, he said gulf western is planning on making a new product of similar quality for a better price, so the days of sougi may be ending, but the days of gulf western providing good oil for cheap may not have...

[Birds]

You take one down and pass it around, 17 bottles of Soug on the wall

[Rolls]

How many of you guys get oil analysis done to see which oils are working better and how well they are lasting?

Would be good to see instead of a lot of the anecdotal evidence that I read on here, not saying the oils are bad or people are wrong just that it'd be interesting.

[siksII]

How many of you guys get oil analysis done to see which oils are working better and how well they are lasting?

Would be good to see instead of a lot of the anecdotal evidence that I read on here, not saying the oils are bad or people are wrong just that it'd be interesting.

Posing this question makes you a brave! Not many here value UOA over subjective opinion apart from me. I changed from 8100 to 300v, will be getting the 300v analysed soon - it will be a good comparison between the two under the same driving conditions.

[Rolls]

Posing this question makes you a brave! Not many here value UOA over subjective opinion apart from me. I changed from 8100 to 300v, will be getting the 300v analysed soon - it will be a good comparison between the two under the same driving conditions.

Look forward to seeing the results.

I've read some threads on here where people have put fairly average oils in full blown race cars and compared them to 300v etc and said there was minimal difference and that the overwhelming majority of oils were ample for their needs. Even after having a fully synth oil sitting in a car for a year and several race meets it was still in great condition. I think the people who use a $120 oil and change it every 4000kms are a bit silly, you could use a crap oil and even if the engine blows up you'd still be ahead after a few years.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Rolls

[Galois]

Posing this question makes you a brave! Not many here value UOA over subjective opinion apart from me. I changed from 8100 to 300v, will be getting the 300v analysed soon - it will be a good comparison between the two under the same driving conditions.

I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that you're the only one on sau who think UOA's are worth doing, they have their value as do other methods of determining an oil quality. if you want proof, put some shitty oil in your car without any UOA analysis and see how long it takes you to notice your engine sounds different or doesn't like to rev. As has been said many, many times on this thread, UOA's have their value, but using other peoples UOA values may not be conclusively useful. Further, UOA's tell you how the oil is behaving, but if the oil is cleaning out crap left from the last oil or result of a poor filter it may alter the result.

I look forward to when I do UOA's, analysing the chemical breakdown of oils is something really in my line of work, it's good fun.

Can you post your 8100 vs 300v results? It'd be good to see them. I haven't seen anyone do anything like that.

I've read some threads on here where people have put fairly average oils in full blown race cars and compared them to 300v etc and said there was minimal difference and that the overwhelming majority of oils were ample for their needs. Even after having a fully synth oil sitting in a car for a year and several race meets it was still in great condition. I think the people who use a $120 oil and change it every 4000kms are a bit silly, you could use a crap oil and even if the engine blows up you'd still be ahead after a few years.

there's plenty of conflicting views though, some people swear by the expensive oils, some are happy with good semi-synths. unfortunately there's no one-oil-to-suit-all, hence the trial and error process

[samuri]

Posing this question makes you a brave! Not many here value UOA over subjective opinion apart from me. I changed from 8100 to 300v, will be getting the 300v analysed soon - it will be a good comparison between the two under the same driving conditions.

I can’t see how anyone can have confidence at the micro -level without having an oil analysis done. Everything else will just be someone touchy feely ideas of what is happening……..really useless dribble.

Additionally Load bearing tests may help to determine one aspect of oil properties but the cleaning properties may not present. How do you determine the damage done by wear that may not show up for many years ahead? You can’t unless you strip the engine down regularly and do proper micro measurement.

Personal opinion is relevant but the information is so vague it can’t be relied on. You have member giving comments who give fuel consumption figures by only how far they drive on a tank!not very scientific

Other members are stripping down parts and drilling components and are obviously very, very knowledgeable on these aspects, which are to be highly valued.

I look forward to siksII posting the information to help everyone and give some certainty on this topic

1. Just because an oil looks fine after 10,000k or a years use does not mean the oil is ok ……………or does it? Nobody has ever given me a straight answer on that!

2. Who provides oil analysis in Brisbane or Sydney and what is the cost?

Edited September 9, 2010 by samuri

[S4LVA]

Its almost first service time for my gts-t. The last owners always used Nissan oils and filters. 7.5-30 SL. Car runs nicely although I would still like to know what a quality synthetic makes it run like. Now the car is currently at 118,500km. Have read that the Motul 8100 is used in alot of the gtst's and from the last couple of pages the redline oil seems to be highly recomended to. I also read another post saying one guy went from normal oil to fully synthetic and the synthetic removed all his sludge causing a lifter to block. So i guess I should get an engine oil flush to? Is any brand flush ok? (nulon maybe) I just want to get this done right the first time without problems.

So what im asking recomendations for is

- a good oil for my 120k km service

- Should i flush engine oil? If so what with.

- Ryco or nissan filter or is there something better

[Birds]

Sleeping dragon awakes...sorry for the rant...

We had this discussion/argument about 20-25 pages back. We don't devalue UOAs, they are useful for your own use. All we ever said is that someone else's UOA results are going to be useless for you because it is not your engine. You don't have the same wear, problems or driving style...so using their UOA to decide what oil is good for you is as pointless (actually moreso, I'll explain why later*) as people saying "I get 600km to a tank".

Then, as a seperate issue, you're relying on someone to carry out a UOA test with all extraneous variables accounted for - it rarely happens. How much of the previous oil was left in the engine? How effective was the new oil in cleaning up what the previous oil left behind (Sougi, for example, is a very detergent heavy oil)? Was the the service interval the same? And the biggest one of all...comparing UOAs from two consecutive oil changes of two different oils will NOT give you the most relevant results. You are much better to compare results after a couple of cycles with the new oil. Many people miss these experimental precautions.

I can't echo Galois' sentiments enough...I agree 100%. Me personally, I don't use UOAs because I do rely on feel - say what you will, my car will be sold / crashed / throw a rod / detonate a piston long before I have to worry about the effects of microcosmic engine wear over a couple of years. I'm driving it for myself, so all I'm concerned about is if it feels good to me. If a UOA says an oil is good, and the engine feels/sounds like shit, I'm not going to use it and I would be very surprised if you did too.

*As for subjective opinions being generalised (e.g. this oil feels good man), it's better to be generalised and correct than specific and wrong. Take for example Sougi, which I recommended to people here based on my "feel" of the oil. Consequently, they have reported the same after using it - therefore, my subjective recommendations have been "correct" for them. And guess what, I haven't heard a bad thing about the oil. But I'm willing to bet our UOA results would be very different. If I have worn engine tolerances, my positive UOA results from any given 15w50 oil are going to be very wrong when someone else needs a 10w40 for their tight tolerance engine. A UOA does not reveal the full story of what is going on. Did you know that UOAs weren't actually designed to test the effectiveness of an oil, but actually to measure the break down of an engine?

Samuri, don't rely on the look of an oil, ever. Unless of course you notice alot of chunkyness to it - Sougi, for example, turns black within 1000km. To the untrained eye this oil has broken down, because it is black. Reality: Sougi is a detergent heavy oil that is good at extracting carbon build up from the engine. The most effective measure is regular service intervals unless you want to uhhhh...spend your time and money on a UOA instead of a new bottle of oil.

[R32oNate]

Great info - ive always wanted to know about this stuff!

[Galois]

Its almost first service time for my gts-t. The last owners always used Nissan oils and filters. 7.5-30 SL. Car runs nicely although I would still like to know what a quality synthetic makes it run like. Now the car is currently at 118,500km. Have read that the Motul 8100 is used in alot of the gtst's and from the last couple of pages the redline oil seems to be highly recomended to. I also read another post saying one guy went from normal oil to fully synthetic and the synthetic removed all his sludge causing a lifter to block. So i guess I should get an engine oil flush to? Is any brand flush ok? (nulon maybe) I just want to get this done right the first time without problems.

So what im asking recomendations for is

- a good oil for my 120k km service

- Should i flush engine oil? If so what with.

- Ryco or nissan filter or is there something better

Use a flush only if you must mate. people on here tend to agree that the carbon deposits from decomposing oil actually help to smoothen the cylinder linings. It's exactly the same mechanism that polish uses: the polish fills in microscopic cracks making the car feel smooth (there's also an element of smoothening the flat bit between the cracks, but if you look at a small enough level all surfaces are made of cracks...).

An oil flush will remove these deposits. What is what was recommended to me a million pages ago lol, just change oil really regularly. If I was doing it again I'd buy 4x5L sougi m5000 (the grade 3/5 mix) for $30 a pop and replace the first one after 500km, 2nd 1000, 3rd 2000 and the 4th is good for 5000, then move onto whatever oil you want. But that's just me...

Great info - ive always wanted to know about this stuff!

Yeah Birds really knows his oils lol

On the oil blackening part, oils blacken because of wear and tear, but also because there is oil left from the last cycle, and most importantly because some oils clean your engine for you.

I will look into UOA's one day, but don't imagine I'd be using them for very long. How often do you do them? eg: every 1000km, not sure how much they cost but I drive that almost every fortnight. If you choose an interval then it either has to be small and expensive or large and hopeful that the oil doesn't change rapidly over one graduation.

I'm going to repeat what Birds said and I've said it before many times in this thread: if you want to post experimental results, then do proper experimental work with proper scientific methods. Any contamination has to be taken seriously and there's plenty of the dirty old oil left after a change. Further, and more importantly, you want the system to remain at steady state (not changing), which means it'll take several changes to properly and conclusively evaluate an oil.

Anyways, Birds you heard anything about the "cheap but good" Sougi replacement?

[Rolls]

I would never use an oil flush unless there were massive chunks coming out when you drain the oil. If the oil is incredibly black even after you have just drained it I would consider just putting a cheap oil in there, running it around the block then dumping it, repeat until the oil no longer drains out completely black and use a decent oil.

Flushes have the tendency to get deposits stuck in oil galleries and lifters etc causing more problems then you had to start with.

Also when you drain the oil jack the car up on the opposite side to the drain plug, you'll get more of the sludge sitting at the bottom of the sump out.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Rolls

[S4LVA]

Thanks. So I try the sougi m5000 and change the oil every maybe 500km just to get the old stuff out and after constant changes hopefully its clean enough and ready for some good oil? Wheres a good place to buy the oil? Redline or the Motul probably. Seen motul 8100 for $79 at autobahn i think, but just thought there may be a cheaper place to buy oil from that i don't know about yet. 10-40 still ok for 120k km's? had 7.5-30 and no leaks at all. Starts up in the cold very easy no problems. Cars just used for street. No track.

[Galois]

Thanks. So I try the sougi m5000 and change the oil every maybe 500km just to get the old stuff out and after constant changes hopefully its clean enough and ready for some good oil? Wheres a good place to buy the oil? Redline or the Motul probably. Seen motul 8100 for $79 at autobahn i think, but just thought there may be a cheaper place to buy oil from that i don't know about yet. 10-40 still ok for 120k km's? had 7.5-30 and no leaks at all. Starts up in the cold very easy no problems. Cars just used for street. No track.

Hey mate, the sougi m5000 is a really good oil. It is ~$30 for 5L and will happily take you 5000km (tested by Birds on his own car). It's similar to sougi s6000 in terms of additives and detergents, and a mix of mineral (grade III) and double-ester (grade V) oils.

Motul 8100 is grade IV, which means it is fully synthetic. Sougi s6000 and 300v are grade V, which copes with heat, pressure and shear stress much better.

8100 usually costs round $75 (+-5) for 5L, 300v $105 for 4L, Sougi s6000 $60 for 5L. So the sougi is the same grade as 300v (which is superior to 3100) for half the price. It has been discontinued though, so grab up what you can!

After I've used my Sougi up I'll probably go to 8100, can't justify buying 300v for street use. That's assuming there is no sougi replacement by then

[S4LVA]

Hmm. Would you suggest I run the m5000 for the first change then run the 8100 after, or just go straight from my Nissan oil 7.5-30 to the 8100?

[Galois]

If you're worried about crap building up and are thinking of doing a flush it's worth trying a few quick oil changes first. Whatever oil you use will be better than the nissan stuff, because they have to rely on people buying them for their value rather than the nissan name AND more importantly a 10w40 tends to be a better weight for this climate/cars of our age.

The 8100 will surely flush the engine fine, it just costs a lot more than the sougis.

Btw sorry mate, only answered one of your questions above, meant to look over it but forgot.

120k kms is usual for skylines, that and the hotter climate are why generally the 10w40 is better (I say usually because there are a wide variety of exceptions, but 10w40 seems to have the majority, I sure am happy with it).

Also filters, don't bother with nissan, ryco or repco, buy the k&n ones for the same sorta price. Last time I bought my drift filters (picked up 3) they were $20 each, I think they were on sale though. k&n and drift are renowned for being higher quality than the cheaper alternatives, even though the k&n ones are pretty much the same price as ryco/repco/nissan.

But with filters, the most important thing of all by so far, is that they have the spanner fiting on the end to get the damn things off haha, k&n and drift have these, has kept so much skin on my knuckles!

[S4LVA]

Lol might chuck on a pair of gloves for this service then If i cant find the sougi i'll put in the 8100. Yeah i remember seeing some of the drift and k&n ones at autobahn for pretty cheap when i got the panel filter. Thanks for your help.

[pipster11]

on the uoa front

they are really popular in the us and most auto stores do them (used to belong to a us suby forum)

if more ppl here used them they would get cheaper and if you do them regularly you can know exactly when your oil needs a change

ppl were getting another 5000kms out of their oil because it had not broken down or not full of contaminants yet

also, if you work at supercheap you can get s6000 for about $45 according to my mate, and its cheaper than m5000